Questions about lofts and stairs

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Ok as we formulate a plan we are trying to see how small we can make it and still have it fit our needs with 4 kids.  Dh would like a open to below type loft area....so leave the living area all open.  I would prefer to have all 2 stories because growing up we had a house with 14 ft ceilings and that is where all the heat was.....we were cold in the living areas.  Plus I figure for a little extra $ (maybe someone can help me figure out how much) we can add those floor joists and flooring and have additional living space (which is at a premium with this many people living in it.  So does anyone have suggestions?  Does adding that upper floor over the living areas downstairs make it feel small and cramped or does it feel ok?  Anyone else wrestle with this? 

Another issue is space required for traditional stairs to be in an L shape (which will be fine for a full 2 story but not if we have only part of the length of the house as the loft etc).  We were considering spiral for the partial loft but then thought how would we get furniture upstairs?  DH suggested a built in pulley system mounted from the ceiling in the loft to hoist stuff up above the railing and into the loft.  I thought it sounded brilliant but maybe it isn't a good idea for other reasons?  I think it might kinda look rustic up there with an old looking pulley and large rope tied up......then there is always the kids using it like Tarzan that scares me.

One more question.....anyone have a wood stove on the main floor with a 2 story?  How do you deal with the pipe going into the 2nd story?  Can you do some sort of insulated pipe and frame it in somehow in the 2nd story?  Do any of you have to worry about additional heat upstairs? (we are talking about a 1500 to 1800 sq ft house.)  It's just not something we have ran into before.

[Redoverfarm]

Ok as we formulate a plan we are trying to see how small we can make it and still have it fit our needs with 4 kids.  Dh would like a open to below type loft area....so leave the living area all open.  I would prefer to have all 2 stories because growing up we had a house with 14 ft ceilings and that is where all the heat was.....we were cold in the living areas.  Plus I figure for a little extra $ (maybe someone can help me figure out how much) we can add those floor joists and flooring and have additional living space (which is at a premium with this many people living in it.  So does anyone have suggestions?  Does adding that upper floor over the living areas downstairs make it feel small and cramped or does it feel ok?  Anyone else wrestle with this?  

Another issue is space required for traditional stairs to be in an L shape (which will be fine for a full 2 story but not if we have only part of the length of the house as the loft etc).  We were considering spiral for the partial loft but then thought how would we get furniture upstairs?  DH suggested a built in pulley system mounted from the ceiling in the loft to hoist stuff up above the railing and into the loft.  I thought it sounded brilliant but maybe it isn't a good idea for other reasons?  I think it might kinda look rustic up there with an old looking pulley and large rope tied up......then there is always the kids using it like Tarzan that scares me.

If you are in a "code compliant" area then your stairs will have to meet code and from what I understand a loft ladder will not necessarily meet code.  So youo might consider that in your planning stages.

One more question.....anyone have a wood stove on the main floor with a 2 story?  How do you deal with the pipe going into the 2nd story?  Can you do some sort of insulated pipe and frame it in somehow in the 2nd story?  Do any of you have to worry about additional heat upstairs? (we are talking about a 1500 to 1800 sq ft house.)  It's just not something we have ran into before.

There is an ongoing discussion about wood stoves which I think would be beneficial in regards to your question. Here is the results of a search on the site.  A lot of good info.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?action=search2

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

I am not sure about code yet.  I haven't considered a loft ladder, I can't see us hauling laundry and stuff up and down that!  Just trying to decide between spiral and traditional L shaped.....do 3 ft tread stairs in a spiral not meet code in some areas?

[MountainDon]

As for second floor access, personally I would plan for a regular staircase, unless this was really just a sleeping loft. A simple straight run if possible, to make moving furniture up and down easier. Have you walked up and down spiral staircases much? I have. I like their appearance but given a choice I like my stairs in a straight line or an L-shape with an adequate turning landing. To me that is much more practical, but then I tend to be that way.

You should determine what codes will be enforced before getting too far along the planning process. That could save headaches later on.

Copy & paste on a search url does not bring the actual search over, so that link of John's does not work.

[miman]

you could always buy your furniture at ikea, and put it together in your loft.

[Redoverfarm]

Hey Don you are right.  I never tried it once I C&P'd it.  I normally do but I went to bed right after I posted.  So Jules if you want the results you can click on the "search" bar and insert "wood stoves" and see the results.  They will give you all the places it was brought up for discussion.  Sorry about that.

[MikeT]

I am building the Victoria's Cottage with a full basement below.  I am using a loft with access to it as well as the basement below provided by a double-stacking spiral.  The loft floor is only 8 feet off the main floor and not that large, so we don't have much furniture to get up there, and what we do have will be handed up to the loft from the main floor.  I am creating my railing such that I can remove a section of it with a few bolts, so that removes the most difficulty aspect of that conundrum.

As for heat, I have a wood stove on the main floor and the pipe runs fairly close to the loft edge.  It is nice and warm up there, as you can imagine.  I am installing a ceiling fan in the main room to help push/pull some of the heat from the wood stove back down to the main floor.  But I have also installed an inline fan in my basement with a duct that runs from the fan (in the basement) up through a chase in the walls, next to the wood stove, and up the cathedral ceiling.  I have not completed this part of the project as yet, but my vision is that this fan will also pull heat from the top of the vaulted ceiling and carry it down into the basement below.  I will be testing that setup this weekend.

I have really come to appreciate the tough trade-offs involved in these projects.  Much of it comes down to personal preference.  Don doesn't like spiral stairs as a functional element, while I do not mind the winding and think the aesthetic and space saving elements are worth it.   With the small footprint on many of these homes, the higher walls (and potential cathedral ceilings) help add a feeling of spaciousness, but you do sacrifice potential usable floorspace (speaking here of the question of making full upper story versus just having a loft.

If you are ever close to Lincoln City (Neskowin) on the Oregon coast, come over and I can show you my project and explain how we arrived at our decisions.

mt

[Squirl]

I agree with Don. Spiral Stairs are a pain.

Minimum square footage for 6 people in a house?  I would be looking at a full two story.  If you are designing it yourself, there is a handy guide to stairs here.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=904.0

According to the guide above you need a minimum of 3 ft wide stairs with a maximum rise of 7 3/4 in. and maximum run of 10".  For quick estimates to rise 8 ft (120 in.) You would need 120/7.75 = 16 stairs at 10" each 16 x 10 = 160"/12 = 13'4" run x 3 ft wide = 40 sq. ft.  So I would estimate a minimum of 40 sq. ft. per floor for stairs with 8 ft between floors.

My views on L shaped stairs vs. straight run.  I have lived with both.  I would recommend L shaped for 2 reasons.  First, if you build an L shaped stair with a removable railing it is very easy to get things up and down.  Second if you live in a code compliant area, usually all bedrooms need to be accessed by a 3 ft wide hallway. You will lose a lot of square footage to a hallway vs. losing 6 sq. ft to a landing.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

In most all my plans (with the exception of the spiral versions) I had planned to do L shaped stairs that were 3 1/2 ft wide, I wanted something wide enough that if I had a laundry basket or something I wouldn't feel cramped.  Also the wider width would make it possible for two people to pass snuggly.  Maybe 3.5 foot is overkill?  Maybe I will have to start whipping out my little tape measure everytime I see a set of stairs.

We actually stayed in Lincoln City for Thanksgiving.  The stairs in our rental house seemed like 30" to me narrow and straight.  So I was thinking by doing the L shape and maybe doing the open railing on the one side it would help it feel more open and airy too.  I had allowed 13' for the stair run so I think I can sqeeze that extra 4" no problem.

I think I really like the look of a spiral stair and maybe not to much the practicality of it.  I will have to find someone with spiral stairs and try them out.  I just thought it might help the home feel more like a custom home.  I traditionally don't like just a plain rectangle of a home (speaking of manufactured homes one story)  but the value in a 2 story rectangle is too hard to pass up so we have to add things that make it feel more interesting for our personal taste.  Dormers upstairs are an option to help add spaciousness (especially if we went with a 1.5 story or something.  I think a 2 story with a wrap around porch on part of the exterior looks really nice.

Has anyone done a 1 3/4 story?  Where you  happy with that height?  Know of any project pics you can direct me to on here?

[davidj]

In CA, there's a maximum floor space that can be served by a spiral staircase - can't find a reference but it's something like 250 or 300 sq ft.  Not sure if this applies anywhere else.

Our neighbors have a metal spiral in their 24x32 1 1/2 story - it's very efficient with space compared full stairs but I wouldn't call it an attractive feature (not unattractive either, just unexciting).

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Oh and as far as halls I always try to allow minimum of 3.5 and usually 4 ft if the hall will be longer than say 6 ft.  I like open halls and I think it will help things not feel so cramped as well as allow for furniture to be angled into rooms etc.

The hardest part is finding a happy medium between smaller home for cost and also functionality.  We have 4 kids so we do a LOT of laundry and I need room in a laundry room and it will also serve as a mud room.  Then the kitchen, we congregate alot into the kitchen and we want an island with barstools (which as you probably know means a large or long kitchen) then we have a large extended family and the dining room needs to be good sized so we can have company etc.  So we find ways to help reduce the costs of going that large like (DH building wall cabinets, or going with the open curtain look on all lower cabinets except the drawer bases  which I actually LOVE the look of, so handy not trying to get a large bowl into a narrow cabinet frame.    

I actually don't mind the living room being about 14x14 or smaller.  Our living room now is 13x23 which is a really akward shape.  If we had less doorways to deal with in the living room and just had a u shape we could go much shorter and have it be more balanced for conversation and tv watching distances etc.  Also one of the kids rooms needs to be larger because 3 boys will be sharing it (or we need to go to a 4 bedroom or 5 yikes!)  So far we are planning on a 3 bedroom with one of the bedrooms being much larger for the boys to be able to partition off their own "space" as they get older in a larger room that is approx 14x20 (or the width of the house upstairs).

We would like to keep the master bedroom/bath on the main floor so as we age the stairs won't be a daily issue just an optional one if we need to get something in the upstairs rooms etc.  So trying to get all that to fit into a 1600 sq ft house is hard so we are thinking possibly going 1800.  The thing is the foundation and house dimensions stay the same size.....it just depends on if we want to close it in the full 2 story or leave some open to below that is the only change.

I wonder if you could do a raised family room over the living below....like go up another 2-3 steps to get to the family room once you are on the 2nd story (the ceiling will be vaulted (you will lose some room that would not be a full 8 ft height due to the roof slant but that would be valuable storage space...that way downstairs in the living room has a taller more spacious ceiling (to be able to have that taller christmas tree and all).  Might have to sketch something up for that, not sure about structural requirements thought having that top floor split level in a sense.

Sorry just thinking outloud.

[poppy]

We live in a 3-level townhouse/condo with about 1600 sq. ft. (including finished basement)

We like having a 9' ceiling on the main level; several advantages to that.

The stairway is U shaped with 15 risers including one in the center of the landing. Works good for 3 levels.

Never did like a straight staircase (too far to fall  ), but it is easier for furniture moving.

Our laundry room is upstairs with the bedrooms, which works very well.  Do the laundry where most of the laundry is.

Our "square" box is broken up with a large dormer on the front and the entry recessed below the top level.

Mulitple levels allows for more separation for a large family in a small house, as well as the cost savings on foundation and roof.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

That does sound like a good value more levels but the same foundation and roof costs.  I think if we did a family room upstairs and raised that floor level 2 ft we'd end up with 10 ft ceilings in the living room and entry area (where the woodstove would be) and that would give it a little stature, then the rest of that level would be 8ft (kitchen, utlity, bath, dining etc).  Upstairs the ceiling in the family room would go from 8ft on the sides to 11 ft in the center of the vaulted ceiling.  The idea is really growing on me...the rest of the 2nd story would be the normal 9 ft above the lower level (8ft ceiling + 1ft of joists etc) with 8 ft on the sides and 13 ft in the middle (in the raised family room we'd devote 3'f of storage on the sides of the room to storage areas so we won't deal with ceiling that are shorter than 8' (or we could leave it with a 5' kneewall at first and frame it in later if we wanted to?).

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

I went to drawing up some ideas for that split level 2nd story idea and it really came together. Even DH likes it.  There are some questionable design features....like I am not sure I could have a built in desk and wood storge area under the stairs like I have drawn, I figured I have seen lots of built in storage understairs so there must be a way to do an angled "header" type support for the stair system.  If not let me know.  It is something that is easy to omit from the plan.

Sorry about the hand drawings, I haven't found a computer program that I like as much as using the good old fashioned pencil, ruler and a giant eraser!

Here is the main level floor plan~

Here is the 2nd story floor plan~

Here is the under stair detail~  One side of the stairs I would like a desk built in and the other side we'd like sood storage area.


Edited to add:  I realize you can't read some of the notes on the images now that I got them posted......the stair railing will have plasma/laser cut metal inserts with pine tree cut outs and or elk/deer etc.  I think the black of that coupled with the classic black wood stove will really add some neat character.  Here is a link to something similar.  http://www.jdubs.com/images/balconypanels/gal_bp_leary.jpg
Here is one with the angle of the stairs (I don't think we'd want the log look moreso finished lumber look) http://www.jdubs.com/images/balconypanels/gal_sp_szabados.jpg  I love this guy's work!

In the upstairs family area one side will be for family room the other smaller side for a homeschooling area, and later on a sewing and fly tying corner for DH and I to share.  Basically that room is a flex room, it can be anything we need it to be, a guest room, extra bedroom for the kids, craft room etc.  I love that flexibility.



Suggestions?  Comments?

[poppy]

My only comment would be to try to place the wood stove in a more central location.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

I know, I know such a practical suggestion!  It is hard to make that happen.....the view is towards that end with the living room, and we like the stove to be near an entry so that the wood peices and stuff don't get all thru the house if possible.  We thought if the back bedrooms were cooler that would be ok for sleeping etc. I could be wrong.  The bathrooms.....they might need a small wall heater for when you are in there etc???

We also considered a outdoor wood furnace with dual fuel so when we are gone it would still heat it....those are spendy though!  We'd still have an indoor woodstove because there is nothing like backing up to a warm stove when it is chilly out. 

We could nix the wood storage area under the stairs and put the stove in that L area the stairs create.....doesn't get it much more "central" though does it?

[Minicup28]

The open holes and tapered notches in those metal balusters scare the Hell out of me. I can just see someone getting a finger caught in a hole or a knuckle trapped in a slot and taking the finger off as they continue down the stairs. They are pretty though.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Good point!  With kids especially......maybe we can apply some sort of plexiglass or the like on that inside where things might likely catch....something frosted might set off the sillouette better too. Makes cleaning them easier too.  They are just something special we wanted to add, it would be cheaper to not do them but I sure would miss the look of it.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Thinking of needing to put the stove in the more central location this is what I came up with.   Only problem is that we lose the option of that raised ceiling height and the living room downstairs is smaller.  It works though and it is an option.  I especially like the build in benches for the dining area as well as the window seat it creates.  Saves space and creates a ton of storage...the table will have to slide easily to allow easier access.  I imagine we will spend more time upstairs in the family area than in the living room so the smaller room size downstairs doesn't scare me too much when it will likely be the more formal living area anyway.

The water heater is tucked under the stairs and there will be a cleaning closet there that is accessible from the Laundry room. In the entry area there will be a bench with wood storage underneath it.

First floorplan


Second Floorplan

[Redoverfarm]

Jules I think the comment regarding the woodstove was one of better function and maintenance.  The flue to draw properly has to be at 'least" 2 feet above the roof line.  So to place it along an outside wall will require an extremely tall flue pipe to reach the ridge heigth.  It most doubtly will have to be braced.  And then there comes the aspect of cleaning the flue.  With a pipe that long (Outside wall area) how is one to be able to correctly brush the pipe to clean.  

As far as the outside furnace.  Been there and done that.  I stood back from a tri-axle of logs one day and said no more.  Cutting, splitting, handling them 4-5 times, then having to fire the stove twice daily, routine maintenance on brushing the tubes.  Then as you say you have either got to get someone to fire it for you while you are away or switch to alternate fuel.  As I said "been there and done that".  I have fuel oil as the alternate.  The smoke and suet from the wood burning aspect covered the electronic eye of the oil burner and it would not function correctly.  So what I had to do was put a plate over the burner assembly while burning wood and if I wanted to leave insert the fuel oil burner, bleed the air and hope that it functioned correctly while I was gone.  Only to return from my winter trip and reverse the order to make it wood function.  So I took a good look at the woodpile which was equivilent to 12-13 PU truck loads and ended up putting a propane 95% eff furnace & heat pump.  I do supplement my furnace with a small woodstove which only burns about 2-3 trucks a winter.   My gas consumption is about 150 -200 gal a winter.

A friend of mine tried the propane alternative to his outside furnace and didn't run it but 2 weeks until he realized how much it burned. He was also a propane dealer and if he couldn't afford at cost I am sure it was high consumption.   

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

I am really glad you mentioned that info about the wood furnaces.  Especially when all the adds state how they burn less wood than a traditional stove, I'd have been fooled into thinking they'd be a good value.  I will stay clear of those then. 

We like a woodstove in the house to like I said......and then we figured some kind of gas furnace back up.  I never thought about the stove pipe needing to be so tall on that outside wall, that would pretty much be impossible to clean....very good point!  So i need to try to get it more central to the width of the house then?  Which creates a whole new challenge in design. lol  Of course.

We have a very nice wood cook stove so it would be really neat to have that on one side of a wall in a kitchen and a traditional wood stove on the other.   Back to the drawing board, literally.

[PA-Builder]

Nice floorplans !

Redoverfarm makes good points concerning the flue.

On your revised plans how about placing the traditional wood stove in the living room against the wall between the living room and master bed room ?  The flue would then be near the wall in the 2nd. floor family room and would exit the roof near the ridge.

Is that a full wall between the living room and Kitchen / Island area ?   Any thoughts on eliminating that wall and opening the living area / kitchen area into more of a single area, which would create more of an open area and better heat transfer from the wood stove ?  

[Freeholdfarm]

Going back to your original post (probably redundant, since it seems like you've already drawn up plans with a full second floor!), I think you are on the right track with the full second floor.  Personally, I don't even care much for the looks of a vaulted ceiling -- I like a cozier space with a normal-height ceiling, or not much more than normal height.  And it's a lot of wasted space which could easily and relatively inexpensively be turned into usable space.  So we are on the same wavelength there! 

I like the plans you are coming up with -- the second one is even better than the first one!  But the guys are right about getting the wood stove closer to the ridge line of the house.  Your idea about having it back up to a wall with a wood cook stove on the other side is excellent!

There's a guy on HomesteadingToday who built a really small house (less than three hundred square feet!) and lives in it with his wife and several children.  They live on a farm in Vermont, so they are outdoors quite a bit, but it's not like they live in the tropics and can be outdoors all the time, either!  I'll have to see if I can find the link to his blog where he tells about building it.

Kathleen

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Wow someone lives with children in less than 300 sq ft?  That is like one large bedroom in our houseplan!  Do they have a loft for sleeping or something?  I'd love to see that blog.

I keep kicking around the idea of going smaller (trying to go narrower too but I can't get the plans to jive with needing a larger dining area and spacious kitchen.)  Anyway I thought we could make the boys' room much smaller if we know they'd always enjoy some form of bunks....I just figured as a 6' teen they might not like having bunk beds so I wanted to allow room for them to each have their own beds.......

At this point I am thinking about some kind of bump out, I just can't seem to keep it in a rectangle and not sacrifice in space, especially in the mud room/utility.  With that many people in the house we really need an out of the way space to be able to kick off muddy shoes, and pile all that laundry to be done. lol

I have another plan in mind.....but as I understand it the more corners in a floorplan the more expensive (as far as foundation goes especially).  However I am hoping maybe in our case it won't be as bad, since we have connections for that part (still have to pay for concrete) but all the prep work we can do ourselves since that is what my Dh does for a living (well on large commercial projects anyway, so this ought to be a snap in comparison!)

Anyway stay tuned I have more designs in my noggin' that need let out.  This thread has taken a little different direction than just stairs but that is ok.

[Redoverfarm]

Jules thread drift is common place on occassions.  Just imagine driving down the same road and seeing the same things.  Turn off on a different road and the scenry changes.  Something new to see.  It will eventually return.