Noble Homes- kit for the do it yourself

HomeschoolMom · August 11, 2009, 12:39:07 PM

I was spending some quality time playing a game on facebook today

and came accross an ad for this site: http://noble-home.net . Of course, the asthetics are exactly what I have been thinking of. If nothing else, it gave me some new ideas.

Don_P · August 12, 2009, 08:51:06 PM

I looked at the protruding rafter tails and thought "Frank Lloyd Wright rots another house", got to one page in there and yup, the guy is a Taliesin grad. I like the look very much, but keep those tails under a roof! Especially with this kit, those archidorks are exposing white pine, those things will be rotting within 5 years.

This is very similar to a panelized house company my Dad worked for in the early 60's. I think Deck House or Acorn Structures is still around. They are all pretty much based around what's called "plank and beam" framing.

August 13, 2009, 06:49:07 AM

Good call on the tails. I don't think I would actually buy a package but it gave me a lot of ideas.

JRR · August 13, 2009, 10:21:05 AM

My neigborhood is all "custom" homes ... built mostly in the late fifties ... designed by draftsmen (I think) with a flare for duplicating any outlandish and clever thing they might have read about in the achitectural rags. My house for instance, has a composition roof with such a low slope its always on the verge of leaking. (All that white gravel looks great tho!)

But one on my neighbors has it even worse. The front wall of his house has a deep offset section to the enterior to make a "garden space" outside. The roof rafters, rather than being discontinued, continues over this area, in the open and "bare". Probably looked great years ago. But now the years have taken their toll and the roof is going to have to be reworked structurally. Of course, rain water ran along the rafters and into the lower wall ... wiping it out. Major costs. Lots of blue tarps for now.

poppy · August 13, 2009, 12:20:44 PM

Michelle, Thanks for posting the link to Noble Home.

I am a big Frank Lloyd Wright fan and you will see some cantilever in my cabin.

However, I totally agree with Don about the rotting rafters. What a dumb idea to extend pine wood out from under the roof.

I just finished reviewing the Brengelman Noble Home blog site. Very interesting, especially since it is near the greater Cincinnati area, where I have lived all my life. They will regret that rafter design, but there are some very useful ideas in the blog.

August 13, 2009, 05:04:57 PM

I looked at that blog too. I did take away some great ideas from it. I am going to post something about the possible rot problems on their facebook page and see if I get a response.

HomeschoolMom · August 13, 2009, 07:13:57 PM

Ok, here is the response from the Noble Home page on facebook:
"Well, if rotting is not an option, homeowners can periodically coat them with a
good semi-solid stain or even better, cover them with copper caps."

Don_P · August 13, 2009, 09:23:50 PM

"If rotting is not an option?"

Is rotting the new green they've been talking about?

People have retrofitted many exposed wood details with copper caps after expensive repairs. This slows the damage.

I've done work on heavy wood that people have put film forming coatings on. The problem with that approach is that as the timbers move they open up checks which make cracks in the film. Bulk water, liquid water, gets into the crack but must turn into vapor to exit, alot of vapor in comparison to the amount of liquid. There ends up being a traffic jam at the small exit so the moisture content of the surrounding wood rises the next hot sunny day. When the moisture content rises above around 25%, decay fungi move in. Film forming finishes on timber heavy enough to check are really composting bags unless impeccably maintained. Non film forming finishes repel bulk water but allow vapor to breathe back out of them readily, they form films with subsequent coats so must be stripped to bare wood and renewed periodically... ok who's gonna do that reliably for the rest of time...

The detail is there just for pretty, bob that tail. I need to look up the etymology of the docking saw... I wonder if there's a tekton back there somewhere

I do like the concept and am also a big fan of the architecture of FLW. However the man himself was a train wreck and has left us with an entire field of train wrecks seeking to emulate that ego.

HomeschoolMom · August 14, 2009, 06:34:14 AM

Yeah, I wasn't really impressed with their reply...

Definitely don't see a Noble Home kit in my future.

August 14, 2009, 01:22:32 PM

Don

QuoteThe detail is there just for pretty, bob that tail. I need to look up the etymology of the docking saw... I wonder if there's a tekton back there somewhere

Sometimes your responses crack me up Don.

This one sent me to the dictionary to try to figure out what you meant.

QuoteI do like the concept and am also a big fan of the architecture of FLW. However the man himself was a train wreck and has left us with an entire field of train wrecks seeking to emulate that ego.

I agree, and it's too bad that modern architects can't take the concepts and make them work in a practical way.

There is a FLW house here in the Cincinnati area that was one of Wright's last designs in the 1950's. I took a tour of it and talked to the widow of the original owner who still lives there, or at least did 10 years ago.

She had to have a modern membrane retrofitted to the flat roof, because of course it leaked. And she has not enclosed the stupid car port.

But it was really neat to see all the original Wright furniture and fixtures as well as the overall design concept.

Sorry to hi-jack the thread there Michelle, but I think it's important to study the FLW concepts and make them work in today's homes.

I wouldn't necessarily give up on Noble. They ought to be flexible enough to get rid of bad design.

Don_P · August 14, 2009, 06:45:54 PM

I was just having fun Poppy, hope you didn't try real hard

.

One story I've heard told about FLW's client's is that many owned two sets of furniture. The matching, but uncomfortable stuff he designed for the house and their everyday furniture. When he was coming over to visit they would swap out the furniture.

After he designed the Johnson Wax building, (that's the one with the cool lillypad columns, there are films of him way overloading them to failure for the inspectors). Anyway he got a call from Mr Johnson that there was a leak in the roof right over his desk. "Move your desk" was Wright's response. Amazingly he was later asked to design their house.

the movie "Lost Horizon(s?)" is a neat period piece. The architecture in the utopia the characters find is mighty similar to Wright's Hollyhock House and others in that modular cast concrete phase.

This is a link to the AWC's plank and beam guide, good download;
http://www.awc.org/pdf/wcd4.pdf
(Beavers, check out Fig 20 if you're following, nice structural ridge detail)

HomeschoolMom · August 15, 2009, 09:16:35 AM

That is a great link! Thanks! I love that this thread has gone off topic...

Very enjoyable. Probably a good thing that I can't build right away as my design in my head keeps morphing a little here and a little there.

Beavers · August 15, 2009, 10:43:00 PM

Quote from: Don_P on August 14, 2009, 06:45:54 PM
This is a link to the AWC's plank and beam guide, good download;
http://www.awc.org/pdf/wcd4.pdf
(Beavers, check out Fig 20 if you're following, nice structural ridge detail)

Thanks Don! The hanger and strap looks like the simplest way, should save me a headache or two on the next house.

Don_P · August 16, 2009, 07:50:18 AM

That is a good guide, There is a ton of good info on the AWC website for those unfamiliar with it. Their free download library is stocked with a bunch of tech info. I should also give them a plug, they're having a tough time in this economy, don't be afraid to buy a book or pdf from them either.

Michelle, you might also enjoy "The Craft of Modular Post and Beam", James Mitchell, for some ideas.

Poppy, I made a little joke about bobbing and docking tails and then etymology of words which made my mind wander along these lines, we were talking about architects and architecture. That word comes from the greek arkhitekton, master builder, a designing or engineering builder. Another word predating that was tekton, a builder or one who creates. King James translated that word kind of narrowly, probably incorrectly as, a carpenter. From the material most used in the area I suspect the man was a highly skilled worker, or supervisor of workers, in stone. Aaanyway

August 16, 2009, 07:42:33 PM

I asked further about the exposed rafter tails and some other questions. Here is the reply: "A Noble Home is currently being built without rafter tails exposed to the weather. Check out http://www.grandvantage.com/noble_home/ to see the progress. Our plans are typically 20' wide inside and can be as long or as short as you want. We could sell plans, but if you are going custom build a dwelling, you could create a plan more organic to your site. We could help with ideas as well."

Ah, now if I could just hurry up and wait...oh, why can't I just have some money magically fall in my lap so I could get to looking for a piece of property?!

Don_P · August 16, 2009, 09:08:58 PM

You mention liking the aesthetics of the homes, what in particular?

HomeschoolMom · August 17, 2009, 07:04:07 AM

Well, my plan was to go with timber trusses. My dad was trying to talk me into kind of faking it...so this does that. That is the main thing. But I like how they really use the materials wisely. The 8x8 doors, for example. That kind of eliminates a full panel or two. It is just smart design. That is stuff that could easily be done in any design due to the post. (I have always wanted a timber frame home in all actuality) Wanting to go berm, timber frame would definitely be over kill. This method gives the effect without the presumed cost. Oh, and I want just a single level, which isn't really traditional timber frame. I guess I like the clean, minimal look.

poppy · August 17, 2009, 04:55:37 PM

Don

QuoteKing James translated that word kind of narrowly, probably incorrectly as, a carpenter. From the material most used in the area I suspect the man was a highly skilled worker, or supervisor of workers, in stone. Aaanyway

Don, are you suggesting that Jesus was not a carpenter?

I've heard the same thing. Greek is not always so easy to translate. There are other examples, but that is for a different forum.

poppy · August 17, 2009, 05:00:32 PM

Michelle, If you are serious about built-up trusses instead of real timber frame, there a good book with some examples. I'm on the road, so I don't have it with me, but it was published by Fine Home Building and is titled Country Cabins or something like that.

I'll confirm that when I get home tomarrow night.

HomeschoolMom · August 17, 2009, 05:30:22 PM

If it could possibly be called "Country Houses" then I was able to put a hold on it at the library!

Thanks for the tip!

August 17, 2009, 06:51:52 PM

I was guessing a good bit of the appeal was the roof system. I was at a local mill today that saws, kiln dries and mills white pine. I was there to pick up some 6x8 rafter material and some 2x6 T&G to deck it with. It'll be a timber porch roof. The warehouse was full of beams from 4x6- 8x12's. For your project something else to consider might be a hybrid, the walls can be typical stick frame construction with beam pockets framed in to accept either rafters or trusses. You get the bang of the roof with the economy of typical construction elsewhere.

That was part of what I was getting at Poppy, the other is that an arkhitekton was originally just a master tekton not a far removed seperate profession, we had builders and at the top of that group we had master builders. Not sure we've come too far, that is how we end up with details that builders know won't work but modern architects do not. We've seperated the professions and in the process perhaps lost much of the mastery.

poppy · August 17, 2009, 08:08:27 PM

Michelle, Yea "Country Houses" is the title. It is part of Fine Homebuilding's series of Great Homes.

There are several houses featured that have engineered trusses that are quite unique and good looking. There are not only photos but also contruction details on some of them.

There's also a book of timber framed houses in that same series.

Don made a good suggestion on using real timbers for the roof. If you can find a local mill that would do some custom sawing, you might not spend all that much more for timbers. Of course, it all depends on how you want to make the joints.

I was glad to see that Noble has designed a roof with the rafter tails under the roof, but there's still some weather exposure there.

One thing I don't like about the Noble roof design is the shallow pitch. I'm sure they could design a steeper roof, but of course it would be more costly.

I just think a timber frame (real or fake) wants to have some height to it.

HomeschoolMom · August 17, 2009, 08:31:32 PM

I guess I just assumed that they could make a higher pitch?

I would prefer to go with a hybrid system that gets the effect. My plan is to earth berm 2 or 3 walls. Assuming I will stay here in southwest Michigan, I will need a greater pitch than what they show. I had pondered with the idea of a shed roof (if I went with a narrow plan), with the higher side on the south side, allowing for more light. I fear that here in Michigan I might not get enough sun to really see much benefit for passive heat. I also would like to avoid air conditioning so I know I don't want to screw up the windows on the south side by adding too many. I want it simple. Radiant hydronic heating in the finished slab, no air. Do I go shallow (like 20' wide) or deep (like 28' wide)? So many questions? Do I go shed roof or gable? Thank goodness I have time. Oh, and I plan on just a metal roof, no green roofs. Help!!!!

Dog · August 19, 2009, 07:46:48 PM

FLW Rocks. Typical artist. I love the fact that he designed furniture to go with the house and prior "approval" for kitchen modifications was required. Rock.

poppy · August 19, 2009, 08:50:14 PM

QuoteFLW Rocks

I agree, but I have a couple of comments on Falling Water. Speaking of furniture, the owners used 3 legged stools in the main living room because the floor was uneven stone and 4 legged chairs would wobble. Wright didn't like it one bit.

While very famous, Falling Water was placed in completely the wrong location. The family liked to camp below the falls so they were part of the view. If Wright had been sensitive to the family's practices, he would have built the house downstream, but Wright was Wright.