Building departments

[rwanders]

    

Great post, Don P. !

[Don_P]

Here's the other shoe, they will be voting...

September 2, 2009
To: NFSA Members
Subj: IRC Hearings in Baltimore
As you are all well aware by now, the International Residential Code (IRC) is back in the development process. With over 40 states considering adoption of the current edition of the code, the residential fire sprinkler requirements adopted by the International Code Council (ICC) membership during the last revision cycle continue to be under serious attack by the nation's homebuilders. As such, there is a very distinct possibility that without your continued support at the upcoming hearings in Baltimore, the battle to keep residential sprinkler requirements in the next edition of the code could be lost.
The ICC code development process includes an opportunity for members to vote at the Code Development Hearing. Since all of us in the fire sprinkler industry have a vested interest in the outcome of this hearing, I encourage you all to attend to help retain what we have worked so hard to obtain.
Our best intelligence so far tells us the sprinkler issues will not be heard before late afternoon on Wednesday, October 28 and no later than early Thursday, October 29, 2009. All of the proceedings will be held at the Baltimore Convention Center.
Here's what you need to do to become an eligible ICC voting member:
1. Apply for an ICC Building Safety Professional membership. The fee is $100 per year and comes with the ICC code of choice. While the deadline for joining to be considered eligible to vote at this hearing is October 14th, it is recommended that October 10th be considered the application deadline. For convenience, a membership application has been attached. It also can be found at the ICC website at www.iccsafe.org.
a. Apply in your name, not your company name, and do the same for any other personnel joining you. Do not apply for membership in any other category such as Corporate.
Only eligible ICC members will be allowed to vote at the hearing!
2. Plan on arriving by noon on Wednesday, October 28th and staying until at least noon on Thursday, October 29th. Hearings proceed at the pace of debate, and if there is a lot of discussion prior to the sprinkler issues being addressed, the opportunity to vote may be missed. There are other important industry-related issues scheduled for later on Thursday, possibly into Friday, so staying longer if possible will be advantageous.
3. Register at www.ircfiresprinkler.org. This will serve as a mechanism to estimate expected supporting attendance and provide a means to communicate updated schedules to attendees both prior to and at the hearing.
4. Register at www.iccsafe.org and follow the Baltimore Code Development Hearings link. The code hearings are free to attend, but by pre-registering, badges with bar code will be available upon arrival at the registration desk. This will also help ICC plan room layout, chairs, etc.
5. Once registered, as the dates gets closer, more information will be sent via email regarding onsite meetings, locations and times.
Questions regarding the process can be referred to our Manager of Codes, Jeff Hugo, who can be reached at 845.519.5963 or at hugo@nfsa.org. To maintain anonymity through the registration process, calls should not be placed directly to ICC about this membership drive. Our efforts are legitimate and we will be opposed by equal numbers.
This is the fire sprinkler industry's chance to keep residential sprinklers in the IRC. After this cycle, while California and other progressive states begin to adopt the IRC, objections from the opposition to fire sprinkler requirements will abate.
Please feel free to pass this correspondence along to others who support our effort. But beware, the opposition is planning the same tactic, and tipping our hand at this point will only multiply their efforts.
This is the fire sprinkler industry's opportunity to preserve residential sprinkler requirements in the national codes. Many states and municipalities are putting off adoption of the current IRC to see whether or not residential sprinklers will survive the 2012 edition. Loss of this vote will escalate to negate all of the fire sprinkler industry's efforts over the past years. Please don't miss out on this historical opportunity.

The easy way to say it: Pay dues; come to hearings for a couple hours; vote for what "I" want you to vote for; then go home and forget about codes.

[MountainDon]

This residential sprinkler thing really ticks me off!    The main point of the letter is the need to protect the sprinkler industry interests, meaning their ability to make more money. And register as individuals, not as corporate. More votes that way.

[waggin]

Seems residential home construction is going the way of the automobile.  Remember the days when it was basically figuring out air, fuel, and spark?  I remember sitting on the inner fender with my feet on the frame rail of my '68 Lemans to work under the hood.  Now we have multiple computers, sensors, and miles of wiring & hose in every new vehicle that makes it difficult for anybody but a person trained to use expensive diagnostic equipment to perform any maintenance or repairs.  Some of it is an improvement, but it's far more complex than it needs to be.  It's frustrating to see this trend, and I feel it's another symptom of "trickle up economics" that has been growing more & more pervasive since the early 1970's.  Powerful interests lobby to protect their own vested interests, and in the process, more & more control is exerted over our daily decisions.  With this, we lose the ability to do for ourselves.  Either by mandating expensive training & certification, or by requiring systems & tooling that are too expensive for an individual owner/builder (or shade-tree mechanic) the money flows to the larger companies & industries, who then have more money to lobby to further cement their "indispensable" position.

I'm not pooh-poohing all standards/codes, regulations, but I do get irate over added complexity, control, and regulation that is primarily self-serving for corporate benefit.

For those who are familiar with the jurisdiction, I have the misfortune of having my land in King County, WA.  I will need to have a sprinkler system if I build a residence on my land, since I'll be 750'+ away from a road.  It has to be designed by a "certified" designer, and by the time I build, will probably have to installed by someone else with another "certification."  No, not just any plumber will do.  (As of last year, I was told that special certification was not required, but I bet that will change.)  For my desired 1,200 or so square foot residence, I'm sure this nonsense will add at least $5,000.  Gee thanks NFSA; I'm glad you have my best interests at heart!

[emcvay]

We have had, and do have, horrific fires in rural areas. We have a less than proud history of people poisoning their land and leaving it to harm others. Laws are not written by some dark force to exert control over you, they are insisted upon by a harmed neighbor somewhere. I don't like many of them but I do see that WE, the government of the people, have agreed upon it. It is your option to convince the majority that WE need to change those rules.

I'm not sure we have a 'majority' deciding anything but that's neither here nor there.  Our system of government is not based on the 'majority' rules principles of Democracy -- though most American's think it is (by design).  Our system of government was designed on the principles of 'Represenation' and is called a 'Republic' 'republican' system for a reason.

In fact, the founding fathers were determined to stop factions from controlling the people through a 'democratic process' -- which is indeed what we have today.

You see, if you could prove to me that using a composting toilette and a greywater system is somehow harmful and therefore I should install an $8000 septic system I might at least consider the argument.  However, it's really quite the opposite.  Thus my point, that the codes and regulations are no longer there for the purpose of protecting anyone.  They are merely a tool of the government (at whichever level they are being enforced) to restrict freedoms, tax citizens, control people or exert power.

And I'm not some conspiracy theorist nutjob (though I might sound like one).  I'm just a guy who's seen the system at work, studied the founding fathers and came to the realization that they were right.

I don't have a problem with regulations provided they aren't out of control.  For example, let's have a little test shall we?

1.  How many of you feel you should pay 20% tax on the cost of your building a cabin (above and beyond sales tax of course)...so make that 28.5%.

How many?

2.  How many of YOU feel that you should have to install a septic system ($5000-$8000 depending on your soil etc) even though you will not use it ever and will have to fix it later?

3.  How many of YOU feel that you should have to get permission to build a vacation cabin?

4.  How many of YOU feel that you should have to take your plans to someone else who may or may not be qualified to inspect them and get your plans inspected to make sure they meet their codes?

I could go on an on...but let's take a poll.  If more then 50% of you feel it's ok to pay 25-29% tax on building your VACATION CABIN then I guess I'm wrong and if more then 50% of you feel that you should have to have permission to do so then I'm in the wrong forum.

Lastly, and sadly, I suspect that freedom is something most American's have forgotten.  They don't know what it is anymore and are too dependent on someone protecting them.  I for one, don't need that thanks.  It doesn't mean I don't make mistakes and haven't hurt myself but it does mean that I don't blame others, take responsibility for my actions and learn by my mistakes.  I don't need anyone to tell me whether I need 4" or 6" walls and quite frankly if I want 4" walls that's my business not yours or anyone elses.

Unless of course you decide to throw out the Constitution and rename this the USSA -- in which case I'll shut up

[MountainDon]

4.  How many of YOU feel that you should have to take your plans to someone else who may or may not be qualified to inspect them and get your plans inspected to make sure they meet their codes?

I'll comment on number 4. Having watched the construction of a house a few miles from me in the mountains I have seen where some people need to have their plans approved. This guy originally had plans approved and a permit issued. That was several years ago. Since then the structure has morphed considerably from the approved plan and now contains several questionable details. There have been no inspections and I believe the fact that there once was a permit has been lost by the county.


... A four foot wide window in a side, load bearing stick built wall, that has no header.

... All the windows have been installed with NO flashing materials at all.

... There is no house wrap or building paper on the exterior walls.

... The PV panels have been installed directly on the metal roofing without a ground fault system included. That means if a fault develops anyone coming along in the future could receive a deadly shock if they contact the roof.


There are other problems but those are the ones that come to mind quickly.

[emcvay]

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2651937/The-people-living-in-drains-below-Las-Vegas.html

Of course, they don't need to worry about permits.

[MushCreek]

Let's not forget that as those sprinkler systems become the law of the land, those that don't have them will get walloped by the insurance companies- if you can even get insurance on a house that doesn't have them. Sprinklers will be part of our future- count on it. And has already been pointed out- in many cases, they have to be designed and installed by someone with the 'right' certification. Even if you want one (which I do) I can't DIY; I'll have to pony up a lot of money to pay someone else to do it.

[emcvay]

4.  How many of YOU feel that you should have to take your plans to someone else who may or may not be qualified to inspect them and get your plans inspected to make sure they meet their codes?

I'll comment on number 4. Having watched the construction of a house a few miles from me in the mountains I have seen where some people need to have their plans approved. This guy originally had plans approved and a permit issued. That was several years ago. Since then the structure has morphed considerably from the approved plan and now contains several questionable details. There have been no inspections and I believe the fact that there once was a permit has been lost by the county.


... A four foot wide window in a side, load bearing stick built wall, that has no header.

... All the windows have been installed with NO flashing materials at all.

... There is no house wrap or building paper on the exterior walls.

... The PV panels have been installed directly on the metal roofing without a ground fault system included. That means if a fault develops anyone coming along in the future could receive a deadly shock if they contact the roof.


There are other problems but those are the ones that come to mind quickly.

So you are saying that you personally feel that he should have to (which means you too) get his plans inspected etc etc.  Why?  Becuase he's stupid?  It certainly won't hurt you.

[ScottA]

1. I paid about 9% tax on my cabin. All of it sales taxes. 20+% is robbery.

2. My septic cost $2500 plus $100 for the perk test. $8k sounds a tad steep but I'm sure this is common in some areas.

3. I didn't need any permission to build my cabin.

4. Not everyone is smart enough not to kill themself but I didn't need my plans reviewed. In fact there are no plans for my cabin other than the ones in my head and the floorplan.

Maybe you picked a bad place to build?

[emcvay]

1. I paid about 9% tax on my cabin. All of it sales taxes. 20+% is robbery.

2. My septic cost $2500 plus $100 for the perk test. $8k sounds a tad steep but I'm sure this is common in some areas.

3. I didn't need any permission to build my cabin.

4. Not everyone is smart enough not to kill themself but I didn't need my plans reviewed. In fact there are no plans for my cabin other than the ones in my head and the floorplan.

Maybe you picked a bad place to build?

  I'm building in America -- isn't that enough?  I keep checking my pocket Constitution to see where I went wrong....can't seem to find the part that says "The Government shall regulate every aspect of your life and protect you from your own stupid self".....I keep getting lost in the "pursuit of happiness" part for some reason.

But what is a tax?  After all, sales tax is a tax but when you register your car (why do you do that by the way?) isn't that a tax?  In fact, a tax is anything you pay to the government so they can control, er, protect, er, regulate your life.

So, let me get this straight:  If I have to pay 20-25% 'permitting' fee that is really just a tax.  If I also pay 8.5% sales tax well, that's a tax too (even has it in the name for those that might get confused)...of course I'm not counting other things...just these.

So, I have to pay a tax to have someone tell me my water is fine -- which I already know.  I have to pay a tax to have someone tell me that Little House Plans plans don't meet code -- ya I know that too, but they made them so I could change them and I'll just pensil in the 2x6 walls and 2x8 rafters etc and I'm sure they will be fine -- but I KNOW for a FACT that the 2x4 walls are just fine -- my house now has them and I STINKING LIVE THERE YOU MORON -- oh sorry, got carried away *snicker* anyway, and I have to pauy a fee just to have permission, yes permission, to build a cabin on MY OWN LAND and while I'm at it I have to pay someone to install a septic system I won't use (how many bloody times do I have to explain that?) and so much more.

Personally I prey to god Rawless is right and the whole country collapses because I can't see any other way that we can get reason back into the minds of the American people.

Thinking that you or anyone else has the right to tell me or anyone else how I have to build my house on my land is well, the way socialists think, not Americans.

let me be free.  If I fail I promise I'll own my own failure.

besides, what ever happened to 'innocent until proven guilty' anyway?  After all, you are already assuming I will fail and that my friends is the real crux of the problem.  You've decided I'm guilty (those who insist I need permits and inspections etc etc or that anyone else does) and it's really quite sad.

Will people fail?  yes of course.  Will they commit crimes?  Yes of course.  but do you have the right to control their lives?  No.

And each time someone tells me this is a democracy and the majority rules I feel a deeper sadness becuase they are not only wrong, they are clearly mislead.  This is a republic and the people rule through their representatives....but those clearly don't represent anymore.

unless of course you can honestly say Barney Frank represents someone.

[MountainDon]

So you are saying that you personally feel that he should have to (which means you too) get his plans inspected etc etc.  Why?  Because he's stupid?  It certainly won't hurt you.

I'm saying that I pity the next uninformed person who may buy the property, because those defects are all hidden.

I have gone through the business of applying for building permits from the foundation up through the roof, including the electrical and the plumbing. Everything was passed and none of it was outrageously priced. The present cabin is the exception to the permits, but not to the quality. So yeah, I probably should have done the permit thing, but the chances of being found out are slim.


My main problem with the example house I used is the dubious level of the PV electrical work. It might hurt me, or a family member. Or maybe someone I don't even know. Nine roof top PV panels in a 3 x 3 arrangement have a normal working voltage of 85.5 volts enough to kill the anyone who comes in contact if something goes wrong. I should point out that some of the exterior panel wiring has been done with THHN wire, not in conduit. It is exposed to UV which will cause deterioration of the insulation. In addition some of the THHN is in between the panels and the roof, maybe an inch clearance. In bright sun that will likely cause temperatures that are higher than the wire's rating. So, no I will not likely be harmed by it, as I have seen the faults. But what about some other innocent person, maybe someone who helps out cleaning the chimney someday when the owner is too old to get on the roof himself?

So I find myself facing a conundrum, once again. I don't like many of governments interventions, but I can see reasons or standards to be enforced in many places. I'm also not going to be an informer; I'll simply be careful as I can be and never volunteer to work on his roof top.

Maybe this comes across like a double standard?


However, some of the cost figures that come out of places like CA and WA states are ridiculous. Those things are left to the state, not the feds.


ED: Maybe others have noticed, some of my "f's" are missing at times. The key is missing on my keyboard and I have to poke my finger in the "f" hole rather hard. I don't always.    - MD

[rwanders]

   Right on Don!  People who think the "rules of society" are only meant for other (dumb) persons and they are far too wise or skilled to profit from knowledge gained through years of human experience are just the ones who need "the rules" most. Code minimums are just that----why would anyone want to do less for their own family's safety and comfort?

Having said that, fees for permitting and inspections are often excessive but, the voting public does have ultimate control of those if they have the gumption to exercise it.

[emcvay]

THis is interesting:

"A Building Permit shall not be required for the repair and remodeling of residential structures when the fair market value of repair or remodeling does not exceed $3000"....


Also I've learned I can build a shop without a permit or anything else...it can be the exact same size as the cabin I want...hmmmmm

So as long as I call it a shop I can do exactly what I want.

Why is that?

[peternap]

So you are saying that you personally feel that he should have to (which means you too) get his plans inspected etc etc.  Why?  Because he's stupid?  It certainly won't hurt you.

ED: Maybe others have noticed, some of my "f's" are missing at times. The key is missing on my keyboard and I have to poke my finger in the "f" hole rather hard. I don't always.    - MD

My S is sticking

[Virginia Gent]

Our system of government is not based on the 'majority' rules principles of Democracy -- though most American's think it is (by design).

"We do not have government of the majority, we have government of the majority who vote." ~Thomas Jefferson

I'm disappointed in all the people who say that all these regulations are okay because "the voting people allow those who create those laws/codes/etc to stay/gain political office". We are a nation that was founded on the principal of protecting the "Rights of the Minority" and helped pioneer an independent spirit that is uniquely American. Look at our Bill of Rights for further proof. Thomas Jefferson wasn't the only Founding Father afraid of Tyranny of the Majority and the whole reason we became a Republic over a Democracy was because of that fear that very phrase invoked.

There is nothing wrong with adhering to a minimum standard or even having one. I'm against forcing someone to adhere to codes though. I'm of the opinion that it's all "Buyer Beware" in buying property; be it in the country or city, both come with hazards; it should just be accepted, just like building next to a river or on the coast. Life is full of risks, and again I quote Thomas Jefferson, "I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."

[MountainDon]

So as long as I call it a shop I can do exactly what I want.

Why is that?

Chances are that the "gotcha" is you aren't supposed to have running water or a sink or sleep in it or something like that.  But I do believe you you should build a shop and then do a low buck remodel.   

[MountainDon]

[Virginia Gent]

Your keyboard looks like it has seen some use 

[MountainDon]

Just about time for a new 'puter.  

[waggin]

So you are saying that you personally feel that he should have to (which means you too) get his plans inspected etc etc.  Why?  Because he's stupid?  It certainly won't hurt you.

ED: Maybe others have noticed, some of my "f's" are missing at times. The key is missing on my keyboard and I have to poke my finger in the "f" hole rather hard. I don't always.    - MD

My S is sticking

I'm really, really, SERIOUSLY-REALLY glad that we're actually talking computer keyboards.  I was worried what the next double entendre might be.

[MountainDon]

 

The "e" is going to be next. It's partially collapsed.     The a, s e are completely worn off.  Other than that it still works fine.

[Woodsrule]

Ol Jarhead,

Young Jarhead here. I agree with everything you have posted. I have never pulled a permit and never will. It is no one's business what I do with my property short of polluting the land. I have put on a new roof (horror!) built sheds (oh no!) put in new insulation (oh, my!) and on and on and on. We have not died yet, although we have lived here for 19 years now. Every few years the town sends out Revaluators, who ask "what's a good day to come in and inspect your home?" I always reply, "Never" I even had one jackass try to get smart with me and I chased him off my land and then called the assessor's office. I told them to have their minions mind their manners and not to lie to us. Semper Fi!

[emcvay]

Ol Jarhead,

Young Jarhead here. I agree with everything you have posted. I have never pulled a permit and never will. It is no one's business what I do with my property short of polluting the land. I have put on a new roof (horror!) built sheds (oh no!) put in new insulation (oh, my!) and on and on and on. We have not died yet, although we have lived here for 19 years now. Every few years the town sends out Revaluators, who ask "what's a good day to come in and inspect your home?" I always reply, "Never" I even had one jackass try to get smart with me and I chased him off my land and then called the assessor's office. I told them to have their minions mind their manners and not to lie to us. Semper Fi!

Semper Fi Marine!

I don't want folks to think I'm some anarchist.  I'm not.  Not at all, but like the founders I like my liberty and I raised my right hand and stood on that line to defend it (I'm a veteran who's stood in the sand too) and I just don't feel there is any reason, what-so-ever to force me to build a specific way or to charge me a tax (permit fee) in order to build.  That's what's wrong with this nation.

So, in the meantime, I'll continue building my SHOP   Though it's going to be one heck of a cool looking shop   Look just like a cabin in fact!

[Don_P]

In another thread someone made the comment that no one had ever built a slum, that slums are created by the occupants. The first building codes in this country were tenement acts. They required things like heat, sanitary facilities, fire escapes and windows for light and ventilation. The next ammendments to those acts required that the windows actually face the outside fresh air and not a hallway.

In my jurisdiction none of the items listed by Woodsrule would require a permit. I had a discussion with our assessor, an employee of a private third party company, he has obviously been asked to leave peoples property and said that he then must make assumptions about the value of the improvements. I doubt he guesses low.

I don't disagree with the sentiments expressed by many here, the laws are in place for a reason however. Pollution is only one way that a person may harm another. Deck collapses make the papers weekly, many with injuries. Fire is another, people have been trapped in rooms with no means of escape. If someone is injured intentionally or through neglect by another the consequences are much more severe. Not pulling a permit shows some level of neglegence or intent. Be prepared for no insurance coverage.

Building departments have obviously caught others before, I've seen some of the consequences. The inspector will often require exposure of the footings and an engineer's assessment. They can require exposure of enough framing to determine that the structure is up to code, some require total exposure of the frame. Some require removal of the entire structure.

One that sticks in my mind was a man that bought an unbuildable lot, it would not perk and not permit could be issued. He began construction. He was issued a stop work order and the county tried to find a way agreeable to him and the law to continue, no agreeable way was found. He continued. The inspector had him arrested and they gave him a court date. The day before court he torched the structure. He served time. When he got out he began to build again. He now has lost the property and a brick from that house sits on the county attorney's desk. As they say "Don't do the crime unless you are prepared to do the time".

It does not matter how you or I feel about this, it is the way it sometimes is. A person is free to choose their own path. Anyone can work to change the law or anyone can break the law and risk the consequences. Doesn't matter whether I agree with either side, I'm simply trying to let those reading know that the consequences are sometimes quite severe.

Two code cycles ago my entire county was placed in the codebook "special wind region" requiring expensive windows and doors and increased strapping and bracing. Our building inspector was the person who stood up and got the law changed.