The Middle East.......

[sparks]

   If Israel goes it alone, bad stuff is going to happen. If Israel sits back and does nothing, bad stuff is going to happen.

  Bad stuff is inevitable.........no matter where you stand

  Decisions......decisions





sparks

[glenn kangiser]

Everybody needs to leave everybody else alone.

Our soldiers offer their lives to protect the US in a legally declared war.  They are not supposed to have them squandered creating collateral damage to innocent civilians in dozens of wars for oil and profit of the investors (politicians interests mostly) in killing machines.

We do not have one politician's life that is worth more than the life of the lowliest innocent woman or child civilian in Iran or Palestine.  Our politicians loyalty is supposed to be to the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. 

Our politicians realizing they are sinners think that unconditional support of Israel will buy them a stairway to heaven.  They will sacrifice untold numbers of our sons and daughters to achieve their goal --- mostly not their sons and daughters.  They forget the commandment to love their neighbors - that means everywhere so their squandering of lives and money is vanity according to their own religious beliefs.  At least they are making a profit - many times from both sides.

The Middle East conflict is for oil, empire building, drug growing to support our government clandestine operations and Earthly Israel's leadership's desires as well as the falsely assumed salvation of our sold out politicians.

Let's bring the boys home to protect us here at home rather than wasting their lives for someone else's  unjust wars of conquest in the Middle East.  We could save a lot of innocents and maybe the people there could once again begin to like us and think maybe we are OK after all.

I know... not gonna happen...

BTW, I have lots of friends there and I don't want to see even one of them or their relatives made dead.  We have done too much killing of innocents there already.  Our hands are red with their blood.  Our government just does not let us see it... not even our own sons and daughters pix as they are blown to little pieces of meat --- too gross for the people (sheeple?) and the war and oil profits as well as manufactured consent might go away.  The pix are there on the net if you care to look.  My friend from Yemen has linked to plenty of them.  Nearly none will bother to look though... heck.. I don't even look enough to motivate me more.

[sparks]

 Some one voted yes......don't hide behind your vote..........


We all know bad stuff will happen............

Tell us why..?




sparks

[Carla_M]

This is a real can of worms, isn't it. There is no real correct answer except choice 3, but I didn't mark that one.

The poll asks is it or would it be wise if Israel launched a first strike against Iran. I'm not sure if I like the question phrased as "wise"? But it might be in Israels best long term interest. I'm glad they're not counting on me to make the choice or decision.  When Israel is faced with Iran's supreme leader stating that Israel a "cancer" that must be cut out, well, how are they to take that?

For a short time I lived in a seedy area of greater LA. I know what it's like to feel threatened. I have permission from the great state of Kalifornia to carry a concealed handgun. And I do even though it's hard to find a place to conceal one at times.   I would be in doo-doo if I misused my retaliatory power so I have to wait until some jerk off (can I say that; if not please wipe that out), until some jerk off actually carries out a threat before I can act with a lessened fear of the legal system coming down harder on me than on the JO. So what the heck am I trying to say? I appreciate how Israel feels, I guess. And I can sympathize with their government wanting to pre-empt a potential source of great danger.

I don't want to see a war. I don't want US military to be involved in the M.E. I also don't want to abandon Israel. I don't want to see Iran try to close the Straights  of Hormuz.


It's too bad in many ways, that we have any nuclear arms at all, but that genie was let out of the bottle a long time ago. I think there are 8 countries with Israel a ninth but unconfirmed officially. The world does not need another power with nuclear weapons ability. I think the leaders in Iran should be censured for even thinking about having nuclear weapons. I also think the countries with them should have fewer but that's another topic I guess.


So even though I don't think it would be wise, in what would be a normal sense to me, I understand why Israel might carry through with that stance.  So I voted for the first choice. Call me crazy, others have.   It is a simple answer for a question that is not really very simple at all.

And I don't think much would change for the better of the entire world, if the current or next president of the USA brought all US military forces home and kept them here doing nothing but guarding our immediate borders. Until everyone gets a big happy face smiley with an attitude to match there will always be a need for policemen. Usually the good guys make the best policemen. Anyhow that is my opinion such as it is and such as it rambles may be self contradictory at times and may even sound incoherent.

[Woodsrule]

Carla,

You were not only coherent, but your post was very well thought out and written. I agree with you that a strike by Israel might annoy some folks in the world, but when the leader of Iran publicly states, time and again, that his regime's intention is to "wipe Israel from the map" what's a country to do? Your police analogy seems to be right on; if Israel does not continue to preemptively strike at Iran's nuclear capability, then they will certainly suffer the consequences.  I do have skin in this game also - my son is serving in Afghanistan at the present time and knows full well what our prior policy of isolationisism brought; terror to our shores via the two (2) world trade center bombings, embasssy bombings, USS Cole bombings, etc... I would very much like to think that, if we simply came home and ignored radical Islam that our world would be peaceful, but I don't believe that scenario would ever happen. Again, thanks for your thoughtful post.

[Tickhill]

Wow, what a topic to start the day with!

I believe some action will happen very soon. Either Iran will try to close the straits or will throw caution to the wind and actually launch an attack that will leave much of their land more desolate than it currently is.

It boils down to the covenant that God made with Abraham:
Genesis 12: 1-3
Now the LORD had said to Abram:
"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you and make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed...

Israel has the original deed of trust related to their land.

America is blessed first and foremost because of our relationship with Israel, our decline started with our leaders suggesting to Israel that they give back a portion of the land to appease the ones that question Israel's right to exist.

There have always been innocent blood shed in war, but it is the civilized people who are concerned with innocent blood on both sides of a conflict. The uncivilized are only concerned about innocent blood if it suits their propaganda spin.

Don't know when but I know it will happen, kind of like winter coming on, you see signs of its arrival and the only thing you can do is to prepare and stay prepared.
When it happens, it won't be pretty and it will be unlike anything we have ever seen.

I served in our military and I stand firmly behind the nation of Israel. I feel that Israel has been restrained in their response so far to all the missiles being launched into their land.

Being a good steward of what you have been blessed with also means protecting that blessing from being encroached upon.

[glenn kangiser]

Thank you Carla.  So refreshing to have a great difference of opinion expressed so well here.  Thank you for the well thought out and expressed answer. 

Ummmmm mommy, Carla said Jerk off..... 

Yeah, its OK Carla.  We try to keep it PG13 or so here and the 13yo's in the city talk worse than that.  We only get complaints on personal attacks so we generally try to be nice to each other.  We can always talk about  "them" instead of each other. 

You sound kind of PD to me.  I know a Carla up here who is retired CHP.  She sounds a lot like you.... not too afraid to say what she thinks even if we think she is crazy.  Makes us laugh once in a while.  Hasn't shot anyone recently.....

I only recall one country who has actually dropped a couple of nuclear devices, not because they needed to, (argued by some but negotiations were under way to settle it and progress was being made)  but because they wanted to try them out.  Savages I'd say.  I know many from Japan and have dear friends there. I Have had discussions with them about WWII and had them stay in our house. 

Israel, if they attack Iran will of course expect the US to back them up with weapons and money which we already supply them,  cannon fodder (sons and daughters) as well as the backing of the dual citizens running our government or those who have sworn to uphold Israels interests (can't say not over the interests of the US - can't serve two masters so they will likely go toward Israel as is typical for our leadership). 

http://www.viewzone.com/dualcitizen.html  (Bush admin - some may have changed - didn't find current yet. )

Here's one http://www.islamist.com/index.php/world/1099-obama-appoints-israeli-dual-citizen-to-us-intelligence-board

Hard to find refs to current duals without getting into sites some consider anti-Semite, though actually the Arabs/Palestinians are Semite too.

I have many Iranian friends and Muslim friends.  No they do not froth at the mouth or want to kill us or Israeli's.  They want to live like us and they cry and bleed when they or their children or loved ones are shot, wounded or raped.  I am not one of them but simply try to follow the love thy neighbor rule.

We do not get to see the atrocities committed by US or Israel.  Study up on it and you will find there are no good guys to be the police of the world.  I submit Abu Ghraib, the Kuwait Highway of Death,  Gitmo,  Israel-Palestine murders on both sides as evidence.  We whitewash the nastiness so unless you do as I do and study outside sources you will see little of it.

Israel strikes first, they likely well unleash a fiery Hell on them selves before the rest of us are sucked into it.  If they do in my opinion it will be well deserved though I have Jewish relatives in Lithuanian Cemeteries and Jewish friends today.

What is there about Love Thy Neighbor that is so hard to understand or repulsive?     

[glenn kangiser]

Carla,

You were not only coherent, but your post was very well thought out and written. I agree with you that a strike by Israel might annoy some folks in the world, but when the leader of Iran publicly states, time and again, that his regime's intention is to "wipe Israel from the map" what's a country to do? Your police analogy seems to be right on; if Israel does not continue to preemptively strike at Iran's nuclear capability, then they will certainly suffer the consequences.  I do have skin in this game also - my son is serving in Afghanistan at the present time and knows full well what our prior policy of isolationisism brought; terror to our shores via the two (2) world trade center bombings, embasssy bombings, USS Cole bombings, etc... I would very much like to think that, if we simply came home and ignored radical Islam that our world would be peaceful, but I don't believe that scenario would ever happen. Again, thanks for your thoughtful post.

I need to point out here that the "Wipe Israel Off The Map"  statement credited to Ahmadinejad is actually a mistranslation slanted to favor Israel.  His intent was a bit more as I saw Carla's comment implied.  He is against current Israeli leadership and policies is more of the intent of his statement. 

There is too much conflicting evidence in the (2) WTC events to rule them as done by Middle East terrorists without aid by the US or Israel in both cases.  You will find false flags used in many cases and many times events meant to influence masses of people are also influenced or allowed to happen by our leadership.  What about the USS Liberty?  Israel attack and near annhilation of the Liberty and our veterans put under gag order.

Woodsrule, I am a Christian and yet I have to counter the Radical Islam statement with a mention of Rabid Radical Christianity statement.  I think they are the ones the Lord said would come in his name and He would say he did not know them.         (End of religious spiel for me).

You cannot kill your neighbors, invade their homes, dehumanize them and comply with the Love Thy Neighbor commandment.  A drone does not know one religion from the other, a child or woman from a radical warrior,  let alone the guy playing computer games operating it.  If he had to take them out with a bayonet I think he would remember the look in their eyes as the blood ran out of them.

[glenn kangiser]

Wow, what a topic to start the day with!

I believe some action will happen very soon. Either Iran will try to close the straits or will throw caution to the wind and actually launch an attack that will leave much of their land more desolate than it currently is.

It boils down to the covenant that God made with Abraham:
Genesis 12: 1-3
Now the LORD had said to Abram:
"Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father's house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
I will bless you and make your name great;
And you shall be a blessing.
I will bless those who bless you,
And I will curse him who curses you;
And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed...

Israel has the original deed of trust related to their land.

America is blessed first and foremost because of our relationship with Israel, our decline started with our leaders suggesting to Israel that they give back a portion of the land to appease the ones that question Israel's right to exist.

There have always been innocent blood shed in war, but it is the civilized people who are concerned with innocent blood on both sides of a conflict. The uncivilized are only concerned about innocent blood if it suits their propaganda spin.

Don't know when but I know it will happen, kind of like winter coming on, you see signs of its arrival and the only thing you can do is to prepare and stay prepared.
When it happens, it won't be pretty and it will be unlike anything we have ever seen.

I served in our military and I stand firmly behind the nation of Israel. I feel that Israel has been restrained in their response so far to all the missiles being launched into their land.

Being a good steward of what you have been blessed with also means protecting that blessing from being encroached upon.

Good commentary Tickhill.

I think we need to remember that according to the Bible God's problem with Israel was handled by him in his manner.  He is the one who will have to restore Israel to their place if He sees fit.  Nothing that can be done by man giving them the land God displaced them from with b o m b s and guns and killling by either side can keep something together that is not His will.  We need to stop supporting our politicians quest for a stairway to heaven through weapons, death and destruction.  Let God handle it,  It is His problem.  We cannot fix it.

Also, thanks to all for the great civil discussion. 

[NM_Shooter]

It would be nice if everyone would just leave everyone else alone.  But of course, that will never happen.  Never.   Never has, never will.  Back in the old days, whoever could swing the biggest club was boss.  I suspect the rest of everybody hoped he was of relatively gentle nature.

As humans, we are a species that competes with one another, frequently to the point of war.  We are driven by this competition and it is fueled by greed and envy.  It is in our DNA.  To repress this takes more energy than we care to exert.  There have been some examples of those who have, but it generally does not work out well for them (Tibet comes to mind).

Some of our species is more prone to violence than others.  Some groups are more prone to violence than others.  Some nations.  A lot of these conflicts are so old, that nobody will admit to or can prove who-started-what.  The hate is deep seeded, and it is not going to go away.  Most of the crap is caused by folks in the middle east and the immigrant distribution of their culture.  It's been awhile since there has been any warring going on among folks in North America. 

Give an unreasonable entity the ability to create the ultimate destruction, and we are done. 

Given the poll answers to choose from, I am going to have to pick no, but only because of the word "any" in the poll choice.  I believe that NATO should come down with both feet on Iran and fix this festering issue.  Technology is being developed to allow much deeper penetrating conventional weapons.  This could be done with a nuclear strike, but reason is prevailing for now.  Of course, Iran could just dig a deeper lab.  What then?

We are not going to negotiate with Iran such that they give up nuclear weapons development.  And the world can not afford for them to have it. 

I predict that a strike will happen this year.  It hasn't happened yet because we don't have a penetrator that will reach, but it is coming soon. 

Keep your lap belts fastened low and securely.

[Carla_M]

You sound kind of PD to me.  I know a Carla up here who is retired CHP.  She sounds a lot like you.... not too afraid to say what she thinks even if we think she is crazy. 

I'm not that Carla, Glenn. And I've never shot a human, ever.

I've racked my brain but I cannot place a meaning on  "PD". Over my head this morning. 

[Windpower]

Ok, the minimum effect in the US of a strike on Iran would be a gasoline at $7 to $15 per gallon --- if you could get it.

Needless to say this would not be good for our sagging economy --  estimates are that the DOW would go to  7000 to 10,000 (how's your 401K going to look)

Blowing up their nuclear fuel enrichment operations would likely make Fukushima and Chernobyl look like a walk in the park.

China imports a major amount of oil from Iran. I and others do not think they will take the cut off of a major oil supply lightly.

Russia has already warned that an attack on Iran will be considered an act of war on Russia. They already positioned battle ships in the Mediteranean.

[NM_Shooter]

Ok, the minimum effect in the US of a strike on Iran would be a gasoline at $7 to $15 per gallon --- if you could get it.

Needless to say this would not be good for our sagging economy --  estimates are that the DOW would go to  7000 to 10,000 (how's your 401K going to look)

Blowing up their nuclear fuel enrichment operations would likely make Fukushima and Chernobyl look like a walk in the park.

China imports a major amount of oil from Iran. I and others do not think they will take the cut off of a major oil supply lightly.

Russia has already warned that an attack on Iran will be considered an act of war on Russia. They already positioned battle ships in the Mediteranean.

I think you are right.  I also think that Iran lobbing a nuke at Israel, or sending one into NY Harbor would be worse.  My 401k would be worse, my gold would more than make up for it.

I'd prefer an ounce of medicine now. 

[glenn kangiser]

I'm not that Carla, Glenn. And I've never shot a human, ever.

I've racked my brain but I cannot place a meaning on  "PD". Over my head this morning. 

Like...    Police Department - retired or otherwise. 

[sparks]

"Would it be wise if Israel launched any strike against Iran ?"

I struggled a bit with the wording to use...........
I thought of using 'will' instead of 'would'.......but that changes the timing
I thought of 'prudent' instead of 'wise'..........but that changes the mindset
I see one poster had concerns about the word 'any'.......so did I
I thought about using 'a first' as opposed to 'any.......'

So this is what it looks like with the changes.....

"Will it be prudent if Israel launches a first strike against Iran ?"

Maybe take the 'if' out........add in 'when'....


serious stuff going on over there folks....very serious........and someone, somewhere is just waiting for it to happen.


sparks

[Carla_M]

PD = Police Dept. Somehow I would have never thought of that. Now it seems clear. Especially with the mention of CHP.

[Squirl]

It is in Israel's interest to stop Iran's nuclear program.
It is in Iran's interest to develop a nuclear weapon.
Almost no one believes that their nuclear program is just for energy from the most energy rich country in the world.

I feel bad for the Iranian people.  They don't have a lot of freedom to change their government.  If you believe reports though, there is wide spread support for the nuclear program in Iran.

I find it interesting that the original question was should Israel attack Iran, and most people discussed the U.S. attacking Iran.

The U.S. helped to create the nation of Israel.  When the rest of the middle east allied with Russia (and still are), Israel was our proxy nation for cold war with the Russians in the Middle East.  They were at war in the region 5-6 times.  The U.S. stood by making sure the Russians didn't step in.  They even took out Iraq's nuclear program.  We armed them and paid them and they did the fighting.  They were the junkyard dog of the Middle East.

Why should we need to get our hands dirty?
Just let the dog off the leash.

[Windpower]

dog off the leash ?

Lavon Affair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

USS Liberty

34 US sailors killed, 170 wounded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

[NM_Shooter]

This is who wants the ultimate weapon :

http://www.wnd.com/2012/02/ayatollah-kill-all-jews-annihilate-israel/

[Carla_M]

I don't think he is one of the guys I classify as being one of the good guys. I don;t think I want to see him as the policeman on the block.

[Squirl]

Yes.  The Liberty accident you posted was during the 6 day war in which the United States were allies arming, supplying, and supporting Israel. We were there to protect our interests, test our weapons, and to keep the Russians from attacking Israel as they went to wipe out Egypt.
I could look up dozens of friendly fire accidents of the British against the U.S. in the last 100 years.  The British are no more our enemies than Israel. 
The U.S. has a long history of friendly fire incidents.  In the last two wars we seem to have a habit of killing Canadians and Brits, that is part of the horror of war.

Israel has done this before.  We give them the weapons to do it. Denounce it in the U.N. Then give them the weapons to do it again.
Dog off the leash.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Wooden_Leg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard

[Windpower]

dog off the leash ?

Lavon Affair

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

USS Liberty

34 US sailors killed, 170 wounded

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident

/\
   
This is who has 100 to 200 nuclear weapons

[UK4X4]

Honestly I thought Israel had already started ? with their scientists being assasinated and their labs and bases having accidental explosions.

I spent a month in Iran back probably 13 years ago- I met many a local both in Tehran and Awas where i spent the majority of the time.

In tehran I was free for a few days and wandered the main souk where life has not seemed to change for years- carpets grains and all types of marketable goods abounded.

I got barked at in the street- and people spat on the ground as i passed.

In the souk when buying some padlocks the owner spoke English and we had a long discussion behind his locked front door- how is the west and why do they hate us ?

On my flight to Awas the plane was full of military- they made no attempt to ignore the white dude with the short hair cut

On arrival awaiting my bags a group of 5 approached me- I thought this is it

they handed me a pile of sweets and turned and left - my face must have been a classic look of beweilderment.

During my time in Awas all the workers i was with had a time with me to discuss life outside and how their life had been so much better with the Shah in charge.

To me it was very similar to libya- an opressed people fed a biased view of the world.

There were still desert nomads walking the streets with their little tractors a dutiful 10 paces behind carring scimitars and ginger henna beards.

One of the workers stopped in the road with his family of what felt like 16 of them piled in the lada, they all got out and he spent time introducing all of them to his new Gringo friend.

While I was there the court case was being completed to do with the german cafe assasination by iranian operators.

I phoned my embassy in tehran- I got the message that it was closed for re-decoration

In my bags were a map- a compass and some good hiking gear as the border was close

The client however rented some security chaps to escort me back to tehran and out.

Like most "enemies of the west"

The average joe in the street has no hatred- just a concern due to the news they recieve.

The blustering and posturing from their religious leaders is just that- could they block the straight -

yes probably for a few days

Global pressure to get it opened would be huge- the nato-US aliance forces have the capability to ground probably all of Irans forces.

The US has two huge bases in Qatar- Fuel operations in Oman alongside UK forces trining in both countries

Would we miss a few rockets - probably- but most would be returned to dust.

Their should not be a ground war by any means- that dirt and sand is worthless- there's enough oil right now -with or without them.

[Woodsrule]

Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings, but here is some of the latest news regarding this issue.  


The Iranian government, through a website proxy, has laid out the legal and religious justification for the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of its people.
The doctrine includes wiping out Israeli assets and Jewish people worldwide.

Calling Israel a danger to Islam, the conservative website Alef, with ties to Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, said the opportunity must not be lost to remove "this corrupting material. It is a "'jurisprudential justification" to kill all the Jews and annihilate Israel, and in that, the Islamic government of Iran must take the helm."

The article, written by Alireza Forghani, an analyst and a strategy specialist in Khamenei's camp, now is being run on most state-owned sites, including the Revolutionary Guards' Fars News Agency, showing that the regime endorses this doctrine.

Read the previous report from WND, when Iran warned about a coming great event.

Because Israel is going to attack Iran's nuclear facilities, Iran is justified in launching a pre-emptive, cataclysmic attack against the Jewish state, the doctrine argues.

On Friday, in a major speech at prayers, Khamenei announced that Iran will support any nation or group that attacks the "cancerous tumor" of Israel. Though his statement was seen by some in the West as fluff, there is substance behind it.


"Fluff" or a portent of things to come? I hope it is but fluff.

[NM_Shooter]

/\
   
This is who has 100 to 200 nuclear weapons

Parked and used as a defensive deterrent. 

If a madman confronts me with a loaded gun, pointed at my head, and tells me he is going to annihilate me, I am not going to wait for him to pull the trigger to determine the validity of his claim.