Car repair blues (aggravations?)

[NM_Shooter]

If a replaced part fails two weeks after install. who should pay for:

New part?
Labor to replace?

Well, the part will be covered under warranty.  Zero cost to shop. 

Shop pays for labor.  I assume that is why they charge $100 per hour and pay their techs much, much less than that. 

I don't mind paying $100/ hr for labor if I get professional service and am charged the exact time it takes to R&R the part. 

This is what I do mind :

Fee stacking : Let's say a shop thinks it is 2 hours to do rear brakes, but you are also getting axles seals replaced, and axle seals are a 5 hour job.  There are overlapping necessary activities for both jobs... don't charge me as though these are two seperate jobs and bill me for 7 hours. 

Actual hours vs. book : This really torques me  .  I know some pro mechanics, and many of the high end shops pay their techs on commission.  If a job is a three hour job, and the tech does it in two hours, the shop and the tech make more money.... at the customer's expense.  I was once charged three hours of work time to remove a broken bolt from a starter mount.  Problem was that the shop called me 45 minutes after my truck was dropped off to tell me it was done.  I came unglued, and they were "kind" enough to reduce the charges.

Part gouging : Paying 100% markup or more on parts that the shop buys for me.  They can't justify this as "what if this part fails in two weeks" because the failure rate is absolutely no where that high.  That is a BS excuse meant to cover their greed.  These shops get wholesale discounts under the prices I see, and they get free delivery.  This is nothing more than pure profit to them.

Matrix pricing : Some shops charge you more or less depending on the job.  This is not such a bad idea, but some shops play this way, way to their advantage.  Here is an example : one shop I called charges $85 an hour to do ball joints.  The same shop charges $134 an hour to do the timing belt.  Really?  $134?  When most of the job consists of draining the coolant, unbolting fan and shroud, removing radiator and skid plate and the timing belt cover?  These are operations that could be performed by a high school tech. 

Misc. Shop supplies : Last quote I got (on top of part gouging an job stacking) had the gall to charge me $30 for misc. shop supplies.  Bite me. 

No... most shops are ripoff places, and I suspect that they get by because a majority of their customers just don't know the facts. 

Makes me want to open my own shop.

[rick91351]

Misc. Shop supplies : Last quote I got (on top of part gouging an job stacking) had the gall to charge me $30 for misc. shop supplies.  Bite me. 

No... most shops are ripoff places, and I suspect that they get by because a majority of their customers just don't know the facts. 

Makes me want to open my own shop.

I have to laugh at that shop supplies category.  I tell the shop service managers or as we called them around the railroad rip tracks and roundhouses the write up clerks.  The ones that do the billing and cost centering.  Hey if you are going to gouge me another $30.  Hide it some where else......

I do not know if the majority do not know the facts.  I do and I myself feel have made a very intelligent decision.  I do not want to work on my own rigs most of the time.  I will trade my time for their time most of the time.  In fact I can not tell you the last time I changed my own oil on any of my rigs. 

To me when I buy a service it is simply I am willing to trade my time at work for their time.  Doing whatever from digging a ditch with a backhoe to mechanical work.  Now that I am retiring officially Jan 11.  I have not made a trip on a train since just before Christmas.  I hit a gravel truck coming in to LaGrande, Oregon.  I was going to make one more trip after that.  Then I told my bosses in LaGrande and Nampa, Idaho.  I really can not top this one.  I'm done. 

So now in turn I will look and see what time is worth.  I have a feeling it will swing the other direction somewhat.

As far as owning a shop, it is America.  But having friends that own them and have owned them.  Several in Boise and Nampa including body shops and machine shops and it always seems the grass is always greener. 

There is a line I never cross here.  I never use a friends shop for anything.  I use to, will not now, there are to many hard feelings.  It is too hard to call BS and get things right.  I do know most of the owners and all but it is not lets do lunch, go fishing or snowmobiling.                 

[Squirl]

Yeah, I had this a few weeks ago.  I went with someone that need their car checked.  $500, and they could start work right away and have it back that same day.  This was on a "free" brake inspection.
This was the work they were charging for but didn't say anything.  I had to find it when I asked for what they doing in writing.
Replace coolant.
Replace brake light.
Replace battery cable.
Replace all four brakes and rotors.
Upgrade to the premium most expensive brakes and rotors.
A 90 day warranty on everything.

The warranty is what galls me most.  First the failure rate on new parts is exceptionally low.  Also, if the work is shoddy and it fails in 90 days, they should be replacing it anyway.  I have a problem with everyone selling extra warrantees when this used to be just part of customer service.

[rick91351]

snip-----------------------------------------

The warranty is what galls me most.  First the failure rate on new parts is exceptionally low.  Also, if the work is shoddy and it fails in 90 days, they should be replacing it anyway.  I have a problem with everyone selling extra warrantees when this used to be just part of customer service.

I agree Squirl one of the biggest rip offs in the world of consuming  is the add on warranty or extended warranty.  Maybe with the exception of Harbor Freight on a major item.   

Did they sell the warranty?  Could you opt out of the warranty?  I think in most cases it is that hook to give peace of mind, to settle the nerves.  I agree that part failure in the first 90 days is low but occurs especially in brake jobs.

I have had two new rotors on different vehicles that failed in that when you heated them up like on long steep down hill grades and have to ride the brakes.  The rotor when heated warped and caused a chattering or slight wobble in the steering wheel.  One was from Les Schwab.

If you are in the west especially the northwest you know Les Schwab.  The other was my regular old shop I always go to.  However knowing both shops and have been a good customer too both.  Had this occurred with way more than that 90 days on them.  They would have replaced them.  The local Les Schwab store said they had a bunch of them go bad.  I would think in the first 90 days the major failure would be bolts left out or not tightened or torqued.  Wiring not secured and coupled or connected properly.  These occurring should be on the shops shoulders anyway. 

             

[peternap]

I agree Squirl one of the biggest rip offs in the world of consuming  is the add on warranty or extended warranty.  Maybe with the exception of Harbor Freight on a major item.   

Did they sell the warranty?  Could you opt out of the warranty?  I think in most cases it is that hook to give peace of mind, to settle the nerves.  I agree that part failure in the first 90 days is low but occurs especially in brake jobs.

I have had two new rotors on different vehicles that failed in that when you heated them up like on long steep down hill grades and have to ride the brakes.  The rotor when heated warped and caused a chattering or slight wobble in the steering wheel.  One was from Les Schwab.

If you are in the west especially the northwest you know Les Schwab.  The other was my regular old shop I always go to.  However knowing both shops and have been a good customer too both.  Had this occurred with way more than that 90 days on them.  They would have replaced them.  The local Les Schwab store said they had a bunch of them go bad.  I would think in the first 90 days the major failure would be bolts left out or not tightened or torqued.  Wiring not secured and coupled or connected properly.  These occurring should be on the shops shoulders anyway. 

           

Yes and No Rick. It depends on the Warranty.

Harbor Freight.....I buy one on all the gas powered things I buy there and it gets used...often.

Northern...same thing. I get a new weed eater several times a year, free.

The biggest plus is an ATV I bought from Tractor Supply. I had lots of trouble because the manager didn't file the paper work but after I got it straight, I had problems with the ATV after the factory warranty expired. Nearly two years after I bought the thing and after repeated trips to have it repaired, they bought it from me for exactly what I paid for it, including Tax....and, told me to just keep it. I gave it to one of the members here who fixed it and is still riding it.

I can't even count the thousands of dollars of camera repairs I've saved because of after market warranties.

Do research on he company and choose wisely.

[Squirl]

Did they sell the warranty?  Could you opt out of the warranty?  I think in most cases it is that hook to give peace of mind, to settle the nerves.  I agree that part failure in the first 90 days is low but occurs especially in brake jobs.

Yes.  The fact they add it in without asking is infuriating. You can opt out.  After my little talk, I asked how much was left on the brake pads.  They knew I would check after all of that.  They answered 40%.

It was easy to opt out then.  Took the keys and left.

That is why people I know ask me to come with them when they go.  I have done almost all my own work on all my cars, boats, motorcycles, and snowmobiles.  I catch them all the time trying to pull stuff.  They usually do it to me once a year when I come in for inspection.

[rick91351]

For some one that is a camera guy and uses one all the time.  I can see taking an extended warranty.  However most people are not like that.  It sits in the closet or top shelf most its life.  Most electronics will either start up the first time and run for ever or they will not ie DOA is what they were termed as.     So the extended warranty makes little sense.  Cars and pick ups used to be a good thing I think!  Now  I see them talking $500 deductible at one dealership here and certainly is not bumper to bumper.  As with all things in the insurance industry it is a numbers and statistics game.     

[NM_Shooter]

For some one that is a camera guy and uses one all the time.  I can see taking an extended warranty.  However most people are not like that.  It sits in the closet or top shelf most its life.  Most electronics will either start up the first time and run for ever or they will not ie DOA is what they were termed as.     So the extended warranty makes little sense.  Cars and pick ups used to be a good thing I think!  Now  I see them talking $500 deductible at one dealership here and certainly is not bumper to bumper.  As with all things in the insurance industry it is a numbers and statistics game.     

That is a good observation.  For MTBF and reliability calculations, there is a fairly high infant mortality rate with electronics.  Burning in your stuff is a good idea to catch the parts that are going to crap out soon.  I never purchase warranties on electronics, as if it does not die in the first year, it is likely going to work well for 7 to 10 years. 

Car parts are a bit different I think.  Especially things with brushes or bearings.

[Gary O]

"Doing the timing belt and water pump next weekend...."

How'd that go, Shooter?

[NM_Shooter]

Pushed off the work to this weekend.  This past weekend was my oldest daughter's last weekend home before heading back to school and I didn't want to be tied up with the work.  I'm dropping her at the airport this Saturday and coming home to get started.  Got all the parts and tools assembled and ready to go, and the garage cleaned.  (fixed the garage door too  )

I found a good online reference, and should be good to go.

[Gary O]

"Pushed off the work to this weekend.  This past weekend was my oldest daughter's last weekend home before heading back to school and I didn't want to be tied up with the work."

First things first, good move

I agree Squirl one of the biggest rip offs in the world of consuming  is the add on warranty or extended warranty.  Maybe with the exception of Harbor Freight on a major item.                

Bought our first PC in '95.
$19.95 for a $350 major brand system....and three yr ISP commitment.
The sales kid asked if we wanted the extended warranty.
'How much?'
Shyly '$129'
'Ha ha ha ha ha ha.....no thanks'
Sold it in '08 for $40

Yeah, HFT extended warranties are great, others, it depends.
High usage, on the job, you bet
Occasional, depends
New auto, not bloody likely

Bought my '99 Wrangler for $11,999 cash
But only after hot room grilling, and my threats to walk (but I wanted it....bad....now...and the banter was rather fun).
Their last shot was the 100K mi warranty (I noticed a gaggle of sales ogres with their ears to the wall). I wondered if I should have, but felt if anything went wrong, the normal warranty would cover.
Left nothing for them to talk about at their watering hole that evening.
210K mi to date

Bought a large LCD 1080p TV in '08 for $1000, waived the $110 'service' warranty.
Month later flicked it on and this black square appeared a few seconds after fire up.



Called 888 India. Peggy said I need to bend over.
Threw it in the Buick and bombed the 30 mi to the store.
'Did you get the service package?'
'No, look lady, It's not even been 30 days.'
'Yes, but you still need to send it to the factory service center since you didn't buy our service package (smile).'
'But your techs are right over there with their thumbs up their hind ends (spitting, hissing).'
'I know, sorry (smile).
Hope you saved the box it came in (worried, furrowed brow, concerned look of a mother for her four yr old).'
'(sputter, forehead smoking) Yeah, I #$%&^#hope I ^%$#@*! did too.'
'Bye bye now (smile)'
(Techs all waive bye bye)
Nice people flee to the side as I exit, using the 4 wheel cart as a battering ram (.....I feel kinda bad about that, especially the lady with the walker).
Getting home, I call Peggy again. Only this time it's Colorado, and the guy asks about the closed caption buttons (??) I poke one of the half dozen caption options...more like spear it. Lo and behold I get full picture.
Seems one of us accidently hit that button.......'Huh, never saw that in the 300 page manual of 179,237 options.....'
The wife and I caress, settling in to Jeopardy.
Now we hold the remote high, with both hands, as if offering a holy gift to the magi, when changing channels.

[MountainDon]

.
......Bought my '99 Wrangler......
210K mi to date.......

Would you believe my '99 Cherokee has 113,389  ??

And I can't remember the time I bought an extended service package......   
And only twice that I can recall wishing that I had. (after a tool broke)

[Gary O]

Do you have over sized tires?
The OD records quite differently if you do.
I lose 1/8 mile every mile traveled

[MountainDon]

Yes on the tires (32x11.5),  but I also have changed diff gears (4.56) and a new speedometer gear (40 tooth) so it is as close to correct as it was when stock.   Maybe better?   

Morris (below) has a handy chart to find what gear is needed for different Jeep tire and gear combinations. But some of their gears (like mine) cost way more than the gears from Raptor.

Morris 4x4

and Raptor Transmission

[Gary O]

Yes on the tires (32x11.5),  but I also have changed diff gears (4.56) and a new speedometer gear (40 tooth) so it is as close to correct as it was when stock.   Maybe better?   

Yeah, I felt kinda silly when tapping out that scrap of knowledge........to Mountain of info Don............

[peternap]

Yeah, I felt kinda silly when tapping out that scrap of knowledge........to Mountain of info Don............

It is kind of like telling Google what I just bought on Amazon

[Gary O]

 

[MountainDon]

Not everyone is aware of stuff like that so it never hurts to mention it. 

I had a state trouper try ti intimidate me once though... he assumed that just because the Jeep had big tires I was stupid and wouldn't know that my speedometer would be off. I told him the speed I was going and that I had changed the gear and it agreed with the speed on my GPS. I'm not sure he knew what I meant by the gear chane but I left it at that. Then he said the GPS was inaccurate because I was moving. I left that alone as well; no sense starting an argument. He also questioned the lack of front plate; NM doesn't have one. This was in SD. He sent me on my way without so much as a "good day" after he ran my plate and license.


Don't ask me about making cheese, or birthing a calf though.   

[Gary O]

So, Don, I have a question.
When I had the larger tires installed, the Les Schwab tech advised that my gas mileage would suffer greatly.
Knowing some simple math, I challenged his theory in regard to keeping score.
The greater circumference would cover more distance per revolution...duh.
However, since you upgraded gears to match, did you notice any difference in gas mileage?
I show 18-20 mpg, did show 22-24 with the tiny stock tires....which in my mind somewhat matches the 1/8 mile recorded loss per mile.

[rick91351]

Not everyone is aware of stuff like that so it never hurts to mention it. 

I had a state trouper try ti intimidate me once though... he assumed that just because the Jeep had big tires I was stupid and wouldn't know that my speedometer would be off. I told him the speed I was going and that I had changed the gear and it agreed with the speed on my GPS. I'm not sure he knew what I meant by the gear chane but I left it at that. Then he said the GPS was inaccurate because I was moving. I left that alone as well; no sense starting an argument. He also questioned the lack of front plate; NM doesn't have one. This was in SD. He sent me on my way without so much as a "good day" after he ran my plate and license.


Don't ask me about making cheese, or birthing a calf though.   

GPS is not good if you are moving........   Was not aware of that.  I think I would have told him.  Oh Ya! Mine even tells me how fast I am going when I am stopped....

In birthing a calf and you decide you are going to have to go in.     Step one and this is not for the squeamish now.    Remove your coat and roll up your long sleeves.....       This usually is correlated to Murphy's Law.  It is -40 and the wind is howling or you have an important meeting....  The wife slid off the road..... Gets deeper, maybe best I PM you my phone number and if it comes up you can just call.

http://www.greatsource.com/iwrite/students/s_grammar_hndbk.html
So, Don, I have a question.
When I had the larger tires installed, the Les Schwab tech advised that my gas mileage would suffer greatly.
Knowing some simple math, I challenged his theory in regard to keeping score.
The greater circumference would cover more distance per revolution...duh.
However, since you upgraded gears to match, did you notice any difference in gas mileage?
I show 18-20 mpg, did show 22-24 with the tiny stock tires....which in my mind somewhat matches the 1/8 mile recorded loss per mile.

Most likely Gary, he was referring to the larger footprint on the road.  Plus some of the larger off road tires the rubber compound and tread design gives better adhesion but they displace more aggregate.  Fancy word for road materials.  The more you displace the most horsepower required, the more horsepower required the more fuel, the more fuel the happier Chevron is.  The more you displace the more it wears the tires, the more it wears on the tires the happier Les Schwab and the people in Primeville are.     

[Gary O]

That's what the tech said, but
260 mi divide 14 gal = 18.57 mpg

I lose 1/8 mile on the OD per mile traveled, so
260 x 1.125 = 292 mi
292 mi divide 14 gal = 20.86 mpg
OK, not the 22-24 on the tiny tires, but to me, 'suffer greatly' w/be more like;
OMG!! 10 mpg less!!

However, I bow to advanced technology and the discovery of the loss of 2-3 mpg, since in the professional world it's a big difference.
For me it's the loss of a happy meal per week.

I am impressed, though.

OK, my brain is full and my stomach is empty....tomorrow I skip the happy meal........or maybe Thursday...next week for sure............

[MountainDon]

I did my Jeep build up in a couple of stages over a period of several weeks. I had all the parts at once but not the time. I did the lift and then did the change to larger tires a few days later as step one. I expected a performance loss in acceleration and also expected a loss in fuel mileage, but it dropped more than I expected.

You would think that having the engine run at slower revs for the same speed would definitely increase the fuel mileage. I think that may be true for small changes. However my factory tires did 735 revs per mile. The 32's do only 656 revs per mile; about 10% less.

The engine runs so much slower that at the same throttle opening it can not produce the same amount of horsepower when pushing the vehicle at the same speeds. HP goes up as engine speed increases. The throttle has to be opened more, more air and more gas go through and make more power; enough to maintain the previous speeds. Therefore less fuel mileage.

The first thing I noticed (with bigger tires and stock gearing) was reduced off the line acceleration, but with the automatic transmission it was easy to ignore. It was not nearly as bad as the difference I noted when going up to 33's on a manual transmission CJ years before. That was a real dog with stock gears and trans. But that's another story.

The second thing I noticed was the transmission would drop out of overdrive with the slightest increase in grade on the highway.

Third, the fuel mileage sucked. I don't recall the numbers but it was significant.

A month or so later a friend and I jacked the Jeep up and changed the gears and the diffs (ARB's F&R).

The fuel mileage never came back to what it was stock but it was close. Items that contributed to that are (I figure):
1. The lifted vehicle has more air resistance. It sits higher and has considerably more turbulence underneath.
2. The tires are not only taller, but wider. That does present more rolling resistance, as Rick indicated. The larger size tire cannot be inflated to maximum as then the crown of the tread will wear much faster than the edges. So running the tire at 25 lbs where it presents a flat tread to the road there is more sidewall flex and more rolling resistance.
3. I went with 4.56 gears when 4.11 would have been closer to the stock equivalent in terms of tire revs per mile. But I wanted a little more "grunt" for pulling trailer loads. Also we live in the mountains and most driving is done at 5000 to 9,000 foot elevations where there is a noticeable power drop. More revs = better power.
4. The Jeep weighed more with the steel tube bumpers, tire carrier, more skidplates and rock rails.

Note: Mud Terrain tires give worse fuel mileage than All Terrain tires even in the same size. They wear faster too. I had Goodyear M/T-R's and gained fuel mileage I could notice when I wore them out and went with the current BFG A/T's.

There are a number of gear/tire change cals and charts on the web. Here's a simple one that will calc what the new gear ratio should be to be equivalent to the stock tire and axle ratio. http://www.therangerstation.com/tech_library/Gear_Tire_RatioChange.html

You can also do some simple math that comes out with virtually the same results.
Multiply the NEW TIRE diameter X the OLD GEAR ratio. Then divide that by the OLD TIRE diameter. The result is the NEW GEAR ratio. Round up/down as needed/desired.  If you are real lucky the speedometer comes out close enough and you don't need a speedo gear change.

[MountainDon]

Engine mods to produce more torque at lower engine speeds could compensate for the typical mileage loss with a tire increase. But that's totally different and more expensive territory. My CJ engine was rebuilt for more low end torque and it actually got very good mileage. But that was a several thousand dollar engine back in the 80's.

[Gary O]

I can't believe I read all this...and digested it..............
Low revs but works harder....makes sense.
It's good to behold the scrolls of the book of Don ever so often.

[NM_Shooter]

Well, I can add this to the list of things I hope to never have to do again. 

Took me 8 hours (book says 5).  Not counting the 4' long wrench I had to make in order to break loose and then retorque the crankshaft bolt (pic below).  I have a stout 1/2 fixed socket drive, and watching the 5/8" shaft on that thing bow under the torque of two cheater pipes was a bit scary. 

Would have done it in 90 minutes less, but was struggling to get the timing belt back on and created a worry that turned out I didn't need to worry about.  Sometimes the internet is a very helpful thing.  Anyway, my list of repairs on this truck is done.  Happiness is a truck that starts up after a timing belt change, and no leaks after a water pump swap. 

Funny how the things that make me happy are getting more mundane.