Dresden Holocaust - ordered by Churchill

[ScottA]

If you knew the truth of world war II and most of the history of the last few hundred years you'd puke your guts out knowing the heros of history are horrible monsters beyond any horror you've ever imagined. Better not to know the truth.

[HoustonDave]

Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru (1989)

My wife is from Peru, and was living there in 1989.  I have former coworkers who are native Colombians who lived there in 1989.  They are asking me what the **** this quote is talking about.

I am the first to be critical of US policy as aggressive and heavy-handed over the last 30 years, but calling the Iranian regime a peace-loving nation and using some of these as examples as "US aggression" are really reaching.  If the website wants to make an argument, they should do it based on full information and not hyperbole.

[glenn kangiser]

I also have some questions about exactly what he is referring to but he (Michael Rivero)  has been a pretty reliable source over the years. 

I think he is including covert ops, as the Georgia attacking So. Ossetia was our puppet educated here in the US and coerced into attacking So. Ossetia by us (the US).  I followed that pretty close.

[glenn kangiser]

1989 – Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru. Andean Initiative in War on Drugs. On September 15, 1989, President Bush announced that military and law enforcement assistance would be sent to help the Andean nations of Colombia, Bolivia, and Peru combat illicit drug producers and traffickers. By mid-September there were 50–100 US military advisers in Colombia in connection with transport and training in the use of military equipment, plus seven Special Forces teams of 2–12 persons to train troops in the three countries.[RL30172]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_United_States_military_operations

The above is of course not a war on drugs but our war to traffic drugs.  Like our military currently guarding the poppy fields in Afghanistan to be sure nothing interferes with our crop.  The Taliban had pretty well stopped drug production in Afghanistan and that was not to be allowed.  Shutting down our CIA operations.... naughty...naughty....

Interesting that Panama is right there too... A covert ops friend was there to take Noriega out.... said Noriega decided he was not getting enough of our CIA  drug action and started cutting into our piece of the pie, so we took him out.

Later we had a friendly fire accident that tried to take him and his team out... got his team but not him.  I have seen the pix and x-rays that seem to prove his stories as true.  He is no longer so fond of our policies either and he as well as another covert ops friend feel the same as Scott mentioned above.

[Shawn B]

Maybe the 1980-1990's actions listed in South and Central America are Drug War, C.I.A. "Air America" type actions.


Besides the Iraq-Iran War, which was another U.S. intelligence war, what other country has Iran attacked ? Keep in mind Iraq attacked first. It's real clear to me that the U.S. uses Iran as a bogeyman to keep its citizens worried about people who are different than them. I always ask people that are pro-Iraq war, How many Americans did Iraq kill before the first Gulf War ? The answer none.

[rwanders]

Windpower;  The quotes below are Quigley's own words-----perhaps I was not completely clear--he did not repudiate his own words but did repudiate those who tried to use them to support world domination conspiracy theories.

Sorry I upset you so----you are welcome to your theories. Your posts are always interesting.

Rwanders



Quigley was later dismissive of some of the authors who used his writings to support theories of a world domination conspiracy. Of W. Cleon Skousen's The Naked Capitalist he stated:

   Skousen's book is full of misrepresentations and factual errors. He claims that I have written of a conspiracy of the super-rich who are pro-Communist and wish to take over the world and that I'm a member of this group. But I never called it a conspiracy and don't regard it as such. I'm not an "insider" of these rich persons, although Skousen thinks so. I happen to know some of them and liked them, although I disagreed with some of the things they did before 1940.[12]

On Gary Allen's None Dare Call It Conspiracy he said:

   They thought Dr. Carroll Quigley proved everything. For example, they constantly misquote me to this effect: that Lord Milner (the dominant trustee of the Cecil Rhodes Trust and a heavy in the Round Table Group) helped finance the Bolsheviks. I have been through the greater part of Milner's private papers and have found no evidence to support that. Further, None Dare Call It Conspiracy insists that international bankers were a single bloc, were all powerful and remain so today. I, on the contrary, stated in my book that they were much divided, often fought among themselves, had great influence but not control of political life and were sharply reduced in power about 1931-1940, when they became less influential than monopolized industry.[13]

[edit] Bibliography

[Shawn B]

It's seeing things like this that make me puke.

A War Criminal presents another War Criminal with Defending the Constitution award

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dOmFtBpg5s&feature=related

[MountainDon]

Why bother to post that if you yourself had problems with some of the references?

Bolivia in 1986, 1989... etc is absolutely false and innaccurate; there were specific, coordinated US-Bolivian interventions against out-of-control drug trafficking. Whether or not it made any lasting difference to the problem of illegal drug smuggling is another matter. But that was not a case of the us attacking any of those countries. Similarly on some of those other countries listed, it is a lie or a stretch to say they were attacks.

[HoustonDave]

Maybe the 1980-1990's actions listed in South and Central America are Drug War, C.I.A. "Air America" type actions.

Those don't necessarily count as "aggression against another nation" unless you are convinced, as Glenn seems to be, that practically every US intervention has nefarious motives behind the scenes.  And that those motives were against the interests of the country where they take place and the situation was wholly fabricated to generate that outcome.

Generally, the world isn't that simple.  Usually when "powers" get involved, the reason they are able to do is because there are existing rifts in the local society and one or another side invites them in.  This doesn't make the inviters "puppets" but it is typically a BIG MISTAKE.  Ask the South American natives or Mexican tribes who tried to leverage the Spanish against the Inca or Aztec rulers.  Oops!

The question of Iran being evil is based on a few things, none of which are cut and dried.

#1  They hated our guts in 1979 with very good cause.  At the behest of the British government, to protect their oil interests there, we sent in the CIA to destabilize and overthrow the duly elected democratic government and put in an autocratic monarchy who would do Britain's bidding and who had the most bloodthirsty and feared secret police in the Middle East (SAVAK).  This infuriated the leftists, the nationalist, and the religious right in Iran.  The only way the Shah could stay in power was through repression and brute force.

#2  Iran vented that anger against the West immediately after. While they did not ATTACK anyone, they made it clear that they felt they would be justified in bombing us and our "Zionist allies" out of existence.  The reason they did not is either because it was all bluster or because (our engineered and supported) Iraq immediately invaded them.  There is a good case here that had Iraq not attacked them, Iran WOULD have turned its attention to the Sunni states, the US, or Britain.  That doesn't excuse our behavior, but it explains the fear.  Of course, there is another factor here, that Iraq invading Iran was the death-knell for any opposition to the Ayatollahs.  It allowed them to consolidate power further in the face of a common enemy (Iraq and behind them, the US and Europe).

#3 Iran has been funding and supporting Shia and anti-Western partisans.  They don't invade other countries, but they do support Hezbollah, Hamas, etc.  We do the same thing supporting smaller states and partisans against them.  They are not any more peaceful internationally than we are, they just don't have the military power to do what our government has done.  INTENT + POWER = ACTION.  Iran has not had the ability to project power like the US, but if it did, who is to say it would not be militarily intervening directly across the globe.

The reality is this is a continuation and tit for tat for a situation that started when the British and Russians invaded and colonized Persia and negotiated usurious concessions from the original monarchy.  Persia seethed over it until the 50s when they got a backbone and a parliament, tried to throw off the British 'yoke', and the British got us involved.  It's been whack-a-mole ever since.

[Shawn B]

Don,

Even if you cut that list by 1/3-1/2 it is still a strong indictment of U.S. interventionism, warmongering, nation-building, etc.

Since the exposure of Air America, Iran Contra, and current day Afghanistan it is not a stretch to question what the real motives of these operations are.

In Afghanistan the Taliban had cut poppy production way down, A 2006 report shows poppy production over 10,000 tons....one would assume it is only worse in 2011.

[glenn kangiser]

Most of our interventions do have ulterior motives, not by the servicemen offering their lives for the protection of our country, but by the higher ups who steal those good intentions for their own profit.

To people on the receiving end in those other countries listed,  they would be viewed as attacks.  

I guess we could call them interventions, but actually they were in many cases interventions to assure the CIA funding source.  

Possibly we could say that these were places the USA stuck their nose in and sacrificed their soldiers and innocent civilians many times, when there was no real reason except to insure that the drugs kept moving for the elite and CIA ops.

[HoustonDave]

The problem is Shawn, if they include everything including the kitchen sink, they ruin the credibility of the entire argument.  It makes the reader suspicious of ALL of their alleged facts and conclusions.  This is why it is important not to stretch definitions and justifications too far.

Sometimes a cucumber is just a cucumber.  

[glenn kangiser]

The number 2 point on Iran was a deliberate mis-translation of Ahmadinejad's words and in reality he said he wanted the current Israeli leadership out of existence.  Western news media of course blew the mis-translation up out of proportion as it was what they wanted it to say and the point they wanted to put across to poison the minds of the sheeple.

I don't think Iran is better than us... leadership of nearly all countries is twisted - maybe as bad as ours.

[Shawn B]

Iran pulls a lot of strings in the middle east, BUT, keep in mind this is their back yard. They have a vested interest in what happens in countries around them. When Iran occupies Canada and Mexico, and has huge Navy task forces in the Caribbean, the North Atlantic, Gulf of Mexico let me know. This is what the U.S. is doing to Iran.

[Shawn B]

Take away the governments of the U.S. and Iran, and let the average citizens from each nation interact and I bet it would be peaceful.

It is gov'ts that start war and kill people. In fact the last hundred years alone gov'ts have killed an estimated 250 Million people.

[rwanders]

Glenn, you really need to find more credible sources to quote and cut & paste from-----really, Michael Rivero?   Really??  He is definitely a charter member of the circular BS firing squads. A radio talk show geek who feeds conspiracy theorists. The wilder the better for his audience who are willing to believe any assertion he makes as long as it fits their world image.

I don't believe everything any government tells me but, I can't believe anything Michael Rivero says.

[glenn kangiser]

I agree with you, Shawn.  I have met people from many of these countries and none of them display the rabid greed of the leadership of any of the countries or the US.  We create our own terrorist enemies with our foreign policies nearly always for illegitimate reasons.

[MountainDon]

Take away the governments of the U.S. and Iran, and let the average citizens from each nation interact and I bet it would be peaceful.

For a while. How long? I can't say, but you can be guaranteed that someone will come along and start the whole thing all over again.

That's all I have to say. MD Out.

[rwanders]

Glenn, you are a man of many talents-----are you really a Farsi speaker and you also have truly incredible sources who uncovered the huge conspiracy that ensured that all the Farsi speakers in the world would conceal what that peace-loving President of Iran really said about Israel-----in it's self a prodigious feat of organization.    

[glenn kangiser]

Only a few words of Farsi RW, but there were lots of internet discussions at the time and the translators saying it was misinterpreted made a stronger case than the ones who twisted it the way they wanted it to come out...

[glenn kangiser]

Dang it.... got caught in another Argentina/Bolivia one...going on right now... 

Just had Argentinians in my house a few weeks ago and I really doubt they want this stuff going on.

http://deadlinelive.info/2011/02/16/confiscated-u-s-military-cargo-in-argentina-was-for-a-south-american-black-op-cia-operatives-under-investigation/

I guess it's not considered an attack if it's a black op.....

[HoustonDave]

The number 2 point on Iran was a deliberate mis-translation of Ahmadinejad's words and in reality he said he wanted the current Israeli leadership out of existence. 

I was not quoting Achmadinejad's statements, I was referring to the 1979-1980s governments.  So I was not mistranslating anything.

Achmadinejad is a political chameleon, 90% of what he says is not what he believes but is designed to sell to the masses.  His primary motivation is to build a power base among the RevGuard and the rural poor to emancipate himself from the power of the conservative Ayatollahs.  He uses any rhetoric he can get for that.  He is much more concerned about staying in power than about anything the US, Israel, or the West are doing.

[glenn kangiser]

Oh _ I guess I mistook it for the recent claims by some here that they said he wanted to get rid of Israel, when he meant he wanted to get to see the current  Israel administration removed.  Sorry about that.

I agree with you on Amadinejad and in fact he does seem to try to provoke others much of the time.  At times he even makes signs like he is in the same club as the rest who appear to be in GHW Bush and the elites NWO group, but none of them have the interests of the middle and lower class at heart.  I have Iranian friends who do not agree with their leadership either.  It is sometimes like a jousting match just to make things stay stirred up as if the different leaders draw straws to see who will be elected as enemies.  It does manage to keep the war machine running and give the leadership an enemy they can use to control the people.  Scared people will give up their rights easily and freely to get the state to protect them from the bogey man.

Part of my point in this whole topic is that our and world leadership does not so much have the interests of the citizens at heart, but rather war for oil, greed, corporate profit, and power at the expense of the citizens.  Citizens are nearly all considered expendable to the leadership of nearly all countries.

[Windpower]

Rwanders

you do not upset me at all

There is also no link or back up to the supposed Quigley quotes

but even if Quigley said those things about a couple authors that misinterpreted his book -- his original work and study of 20 years and his study of their "secret papers" (his words not mine) for two years stands as documented proof that wealthy people and powerful banks work together in secret to control economies and increase their wealth and power.

I have not completely read my copy of Tragedy and Hope (it is 1348 pages long) however I know it is a well dociumented and well indexed reference book from what I have read.

John Perkins corroborates much of Quigley's work as it functions in the modern empire in Confessions of an Economic Hitman

a 2 minute summary is here with a voice over by Perkins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7Fzm1hEiDQ

if we do not stand up to this we are complicit in these criminal actions

the BIS is now getting its pound of flesh from the US

we are now being turned into a third world country -- it is not accidental

[glenn kangiser]

That is what so many fail to notice.  These failures are planned,

Soros has been working overtime on engineering regime changes and is even involved in our latest one.