how to install Finless windows?

sharbin · September 15, 2009, 10:22:23 AM

Hello all,

I recieved my new windows yesterday to discover that they have no nailing fins. All the installation instructions that I came accross (on the Web and in books) were for windows with nailing flange/fin, so I have no idea of the proper way to do it.

Thanks.

sharbin

Redoverfarm · September 15, 2009, 10:29:15 AM

Sounds like you got replacement rather than new construction windows. What did you pay for them and what was your original order discription? They could have made the error. If worse comes to worse you will just have to set them in the rough opening and trim them out. Silicon caulking. I used these in an addition and was able to find vinyle quarter round when I used with Stainless finish nails.

September 15, 2009, 10:57:37 AM

If you bought them new I would talk to the supplier. It wouldn't be the first time an error was made by a supplier.

Perhaps they made an incorrect assumption and didn't ask you the right questions? Did you tell them you were buying them for new construction? They should have asked you id you did not. I have had that happen when ordering something I was not totally familiar with. I would go back to the supplier and see what they can do; tell them you assumed the windows would have fins for installation.

waggin · September 15, 2009, 11:19:15 AM

If you end up being stuck with them, then maybe this is a product to consider.

http://www.protectowrap.com/products/pdf/BT25XLButylHybridSellSheet.pdf

My situation was a retrofit, and the window installing contractor many years ago had cut the nail fins off to have them match up w/existing sheetrock, interior sills, etc. When I resided my house w/Hardi Plank, I pushed this into the 90 degree corner of the window frame and the existing T-111 siding, which basically became another layer of sheathing under the new lap siding. So the material rolled from the old siding/sheathing up onto the window frame about 1 to 1-1/2". This required a little bit of 45 degree cutting at the corners, but other than that, I followed the common sense overlapping principles shown in the instructions on the page above. As others have said, "Think like water." The adhesive/sealer is a rubbery, tar-like, sticky as um, heck, and you don't want to let it touch any place you don't want it to stay, so I'd say it's not easy to handle, especially on 5'x8' windows on the 2nd story. After the wrap, I trimmed & caulked as normal. Either this was a creative solution, or a horrible idea.

People w/more expertise & experience are encouraged to chime in. At the time, it was the best idea I could come up with, and after asking around, nobody suggested anything better. Of course, I didn't have this forum to consult back then.

sharbin · September 15, 2009, 11:23:45 AM

I live in Canada, so I am not sure whether it is the norm to have it with flange. After seeing your comments I sent an email for both the supplier and the manufacturer.

I did the initial command through email, then after getting back to me with the price ($7127 CAD including taxes for vinyle single hung with aluminium exterior, for 14 windows) I contacted the guy by phone to confirm the order. I did not mention whether this is for new construction, and niether the supplier asked. However when giving the dimentions I used the term rough openning to give the dimentions.

So is it not recommended at all to install windows without a nailing flange?

September 15, 2009, 11:45:13 AM

My opinion is, on new construction the nailing flange makes it easier to properly flash the window without relying on caulk. With the building paper/wrap installed with self stick flashing strips done properly, any caulk used is just about redundant. The layers of material in combination with flanges lead the water to the exterior.

Using finless on new construction you can still flash to lead the water out, but the window to frame seal is not quite as good as with a fin. That's my opinion.

That said if you end having to use these you can make them work. For sealant/caulk use only genuine 100% silicone as it will flex rather than crack unlike the acrylic. And be sure to use a flashing material like the one in the link waggin posted. There are different brands. Grace Vycor is the biggie. Grace has full downloadable info sheets on their web site.

http://www.graceathome.com/pages/flashingprod.htm

MountainDon · September 15, 2009, 11:54:34 AM

You can also find installation instructions on Jeld-Wen's website. They should be similar to any other. However, each windoew manufacturer can have their own methid and if it is not followed that may void the warranty.

http://www.jeld-wen.com/resources/index.cfm

Windows with fins are also easier to install.

sharbin · September 15, 2009, 02:21:39 PM

I just got an email from the supplier saying that the nailing fin is not the standard $:-\$
I will wait till the manufacturer replies back to see my options, but I guess I am stuck with these windows.

From the JeldWen instructions, they are flashing the sill same as windows with fins, which is good, but then they go saying that we have to drill holes on the window's sides, eventhough there are masonry clips

Am I missing something? Also they do not mention anything about applying flashing strips on the sides and top after filling the cavity with backer rod and sealant, isn't this a requirement to have a real seal all around the window?

MountainDon · September 15, 2009, 02:30:40 PM

Sorry Sharbin, I didn't re-read the Jeld-Wen info before the post.

Yes you would use the adhesive backed flashing material, working from the bottom up, thinking like water in order to always lead the water to the exterior.

Holes are usually drilled through the sides to secure the window to the house framing. Do those windows come with instructions? Not sure about the masonry clips.

September 15, 2009, 03:09:46 PM

unfortunately, the windows came with a 4 liner each with one sentence instructions $:-\$

Mine come with masonary clips ( I think this is what they are called, basically a strip of metal attached to the sides of the windows with maybe 8" apart) , hence my question why do I need to drill if it can be attached to using the clips.

MountainDon · September 15, 2009, 03:13:50 PM

If those are usable to nail into the house framing it seems that would be the way to go.

Use the backer rod if the space around the window is larger than 1/2". Any of the caulks I've used have warnings against using to fill over 1/2"

Redoverfarm · September 15, 2009, 03:15:01 PM

sharbin I used the replacement windows at the cabin and they had two holes drilled in each side (top & bottom) for mounting. Then they had a sliding cover that you could cover the screws (appearance wise) made into the inside track. But mine were double hung tilt out. Maybe that's the difference.

sharbin · September 15, 2009, 04:01:35 PM

Eventhough mine is single hung but it does tilt out.... maybe I did not pay attention to that sliding thing. Could you give a detailed description on how you did the installtion (flashing, fastenning, etc.)? Thanks.

n74tg · September 15, 2009, 04:56:56 PM

In my new home construction I used replacement (finless) windows. The window company makes and sells a clip in type window extension flange which clips in to a groove all along the outside edges of the window. In this way I essentially got a flange. Coupled with the butyl rubber backed flashing tapes ( I used Tamko brand, $ 13 U.S. for 100 linear feet, 6" width) I feel very confident my windows will not leak.

See if your supplier sells an extension flange. If they don't recognize the term, then ask about mull strips (for connecting two windows together).

If you want to read more about it, read my blog (address below). Go back to post #61 to read about the window install.

Good luck

September 16, 2009, 09:37:16 AM

Thank you all for your input.

I guess I am starting to put a positive spin on the finless windows and look at the glass half full: the benefit of installation from inside which would save me the headache of building scaffolds and hoisting huge windows (some of them are 5x6 feet) on them. Obviously there is still half of the glass empty

which is water proofing the windows.
Hence, I would really need to know the best way of how to install the windows to ensure a tight seal. Any step by step instructions would be really appreciated. Please note that the siding would be 1x8 pine and we want to put outside 1x6 wood frames all around the windows.

Thanks again.

n74tg · September 16, 2009, 12:21:04 PM

Since my windows are double hung, I can remove both top and bottom glass panels. This leaves only the frame which is pretty light in weight. So, I put my extender flanges on first, then turned the frame at an angle so it would fit thru the rough opening (from the inside). Then set it in the rough opening. My windows had a foam strip all around the outside, that foam strip provided enough friction to hold the window in place while I put in the screws (4) thru the sides.

Specifically, I would put in the two screws on the right, and not particularly tight. Then, put a level on the right side jamb and make sure it's perfectly vertical. Adjust the screws to get it vertical. Then put in the upper glass panel and lower glass panel. Make sure both of them move up and down freely. Adjust screws as necessary to get them to move freely.

Then, raise the lower panel, so you can put in the lower screw on the left side. Check free movement again. Then do the upper left screw. Check free movement again. Once all four screws are in, tighten each of them up a little at a time, making sure of free/easy movement of window panel after each one. My instructions recommended taking diagonal measurements from corners and insuring they are equal (to insure the window is square). I found that if everything moves freely and the window is easy to lock, then it's correctly installed.

Once you're satisfied with the physical install, you need to do the outside flashing. For me, working from a ladder was the best way to go. If you used a "sill pan" then the bottom of the window is pretty well already flashed. You can read about sill pans in my blog or do a google search or go to youtube and watch videos on sill pan installation.

Flash the sides second and the top last, remembering that the flashing goes under the housewrap on top (only). You want the housewrap to shed water, so overlap everything shingle fashion so water isn't trapped anywhere.

Because I had the extender flange on all my windows I was able to cover all 2" of the extender flange and 4" of housewrap with each piece of flashing material. If you don't find any extender flange, then you are going to have to caulk (a lot), and I'm not the person to advise you on that.

Good luck

secordpd · September 16, 2009, 11:13:44 PM

Sharbin, here's some info when i asked the same thing over at breaktime on the Fine Homebuilding site

http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=122703.13&redirCnt=2

These were the shim screws one of the guys suggested

http://www.conservationtechnology.com/building_shimscrews.html

Here's another co. They have a retail seach box on the left hand side for USA & Canada

http://www.grkfasteners.com/

Let us know how it works out...

sharbin · September 17, 2009, 01:24:25 PM

Thank you all for pitching in.

I did yet another search and got to an article that provides a solution to my problem. They gave instructions on how to attach a made-up flange to the window and proceed with the regular nailing flange install.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Home-Improvement-General-688/2008/5/Vinyl-Windows-1.htm

Thank you all again for the help.

I will let you knwo how it goes.

sharbin · September 24, 2009, 11:20:12 AM

hello again,

Well I started installing the first window without nailing flanges.
I installed the sill flashing, installed the window using shims under the attached masonary metal brackets and attached the window through these metal brakets, through the shims, and into the walls. I left the 1 3/8" extruded aluminum that sticks out and is attached to the Vinyl window to extend outside the window openning (the idea is that the combination of 1x3 furring strips and the wood siding thickness, which is 1 3/8", will be flush with the extruded aluminum after which the 1x6 pine trim will be installed over them and overlap the extruded aluminum)

I did that on all sides... that went good. Now came back the question of how to flash the rest of the sides... and here where I am stuck. What to do with the 1/2" gap all around the window?

1- Filling it with low expansion foam, apply the butyl tape over the foam and overlap the tiny blade that sticks out about 1/4" from the sides of the extruded aluminum?

2- Just fill the gap with the foam and install the furring strips over them and seal all around with silicon?

Is there any other ways that are more efficient/proper? $:-\$ please help.

thanks,

Sharbin

n74tg · September 24, 2009, 11:31:33 AM

I'm having a little trouble following you here. Could you take a pic and post it; might help.

September 24, 2009, 11:57:36 AM

If there's a 1/2 inch gap I would have considered adding an addtional piece of would on the frame to take up the space. Could the window be offset 1/4" to allow for 1 by ? (3/4" thick)? Even so I would think spray foam would fill the space and also increase the rigidity around the frame.

I bought a big window for our shed at a huge discount but didn't realize the windo did not have a nailing flange until later. Since it was only one window and I had some spare aluminum 1" angle, I used silicone to glue the angle to the window and added 3 rivets to the side and 4 to the top and bottom to attach it. Worked great in my single window case.

MountainDon · September 24, 2009, 12:07:59 PM

When it comes to using spray foam around windows and doors it is best to use the low expansion types that are specified as window/door foam. The regular Great Stuff can expand enough to distort frames. The foams do make great sealers/insulators for that use though.

sharbin · September 24, 2009, 01:17:36 PM

this is a picture of the window that I have. Hope that would explain me better.

sharbin · September 25, 2009, 12:55:57 PM

any ideas?

sharbin · September 29, 2009, 04:30:50 PM

So I installed all the windows last weekend... but with only flashing the sills and leaving the rest till I find out how to do it the proper way (hopefully).

Here is one of the windows how it looks from outside. Notice how 1 3/8 " of the frame, which is the aluminium cladding, is sticking out. This is where the furring strips and siding will be flush with the exterior after which the outside trim will overlap the cladding a tiny bit. Ah, that brings on another question: do I add furring strips all around the window like a picture frame? If so wouldn't that trap water?

here is the window before the installation. Notice that the white is the structure of the window in PVC and the extruded alumium is the brownish one:

here is how they look from inside. :

here is how it look from the outside:

Hopfully someone will have an idea how to finish this off

Thanks