I found this walking my land..is it an old well?

[AdironDoc]

Was walking the land I recently acquired and following a gentle ravine downwards towards the creek, happened upon this concrete square. My builder and I had been talking this month about putting in a well. Here was appeared to be a rectangular cistern of some sort from days gone by.  Inside is clear water and a small pipe on the downward sloping side was dripping water. Some timbers had rotted and a piece was laying in the water as were a few shingles.

Does this look like a well? Anything else it might be..drywell? Is there a way to have the water checked out, and if it's a well, rehabilitate this to something useful? My camp is 1000ft away and upgrade slightly so I doubt I can incorporate it. Just curious if anyone can ID this.



Or a video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjqisBGxFaU

[PEG688]

 My guess is a cistern like you mentioned,   from the 50's or so.  It's poured concrete  looks like they used 1x6 to form it up, steel / black iron  pipe etc   Any old foundations near by?  You mentioned shingles , maybe blown in from a old building?  Maybe a small roof / cover  was over the cistern?

 Highly unlikely it's a well that you could use.   You mention having a builder so you "camp" more than likely isn't a down and dirt hunting camp. The water might be good from washing and the such but not something a person would want to drink without boiling or treating for parasites.

     

[Redoverfarm]

Could have been a "spring box" with a roof covering.

[glenn kangiser]

Looks like a spring box to me.  Possibly there was a cabin below - the pipe may have been leaving the box rather than filling the box.  Hard to tell with the info we have.  I'd look down stream for an old cabin site or possibly just an old stock water tank.

[Redoverfarm]

Could have been a "spring box" with a roof covering.

You should pump it dry and see if the water re-enters from the ground. Sure sign that it is a spring rather than a cistern.

[AdironDoc]

Aha! That's a great idea. I will pump it out, dig the junk out of it, and see how quickly it refills. The fact that it's situated near the bottom of a gully probably meant it was a great spot for water. I'd imagine even if the brook is dry, the lowest point is still more likely to have ground water?

The bolts in the concrete seem to show there were walls at one time. The shingles, a roof. No cabins in sight but there was once a logging camp here in the 50's long since gone, the bridge washed away. Is there a difference between a shallow well, and a spring box?

[glenn kangiser]

A shallow well could go into a static water aquifer for the necessary depth, where a spring box would keep a spring flowing directly from the ground from being contaminated.

My spring box is centered over a fracture in the ground rock that is producing flowing water at the rate of about 1/2 gallon per minute.

If I dirty the water cleaning out the spring box, I will see clean water flowing into the dirtied water.  Mine produces a bit of silt over the years. 

A well on the other hand may not show a flow of water and may just settle out if dirtied, but some wells do have a flow underground.

[considerations]

A spring box (or spring house depending on "size") was basically a refrigerator.  Butter, cheese, milk, that sort of storage.  With a lid on it again your beer would stay cold just hang them in the water.   Way cool discovery!

[diyfrank]

It must have some kind of flow going on, it looks fairly clean.

[AdironDoc]

The ground here is fairly dry and downward sloping. It's at least 6 feet higher than the boggy area down towards the creek. The water table is either really close to the ground, or it's a spring, no? As the ravine seems to indicate a long dried up brook, does groundwater typically follow contours seen above? If so, would that be called a spring?

[Redoverfarm]

It is very doubtful that someone would go to the effort of building a spring box in a stream.  The spring is basicly an underground water stream that makes it to the top of the ground.  Generally from a nearby elivated landscape such as the side of a hill or a bank. Although there have been some that flow directly up in a level setting.

Water in a stream does not alway flow on top.  I have a stream that in dry parts of the year will typically disappear from sight for 100-300 ft at a time and reappear as a pool then disappear again,  The water is always present in that type of stream bed but actually drops below the surface and flows.  I have removed gravel in the dry season and after removing 1-2' the water is present.

[glenn kangiser]

Water can also be pushed up through ground faults, from a higher mountain range miles away.  Some of ours is likely pressurized from the Sierra Nevadas.  My spring is about 1/3 the way down from the top of the ridge of the mountain and yet there are no water sources above me on the mountain.  Still it flows year around.

It is quite common for water to drain toward ravines - ground faults - and follow them.  Quartz here is associated with the faults and water is often associated with the faults the quartz shows up in.

[AdironDoc]

That makes sense. Why put a well in a streambed? There is higher ground all around. As for quartz, as you may know Glenn, Herkimer County is home to the "Herkimer Diamond", one big ole quartz. Must be something in the water    Now I wonder if the contractor really needs to bring in the local "water witch" to dowse my lots. I don't know much about dowsing, but look what I stumble on just going for a walk.

[Redoverfarm]

Give witching a try on your own.  Find a welding supply and buy two 36"  pieces of 1/8" brass welding rod.  Bend a 90 deg leg approximately 6- 8" long on each rod.  Now comes the fun part.  Using your own yard as a practice field.  You can locate known water or septic lines.  Once you get the feel for the rods and how they react you can witch your own property.  I generally grip each rod (short leg) just tight enough to keep the end of the long leg level and the allow free movement.  By slightly tilting your hands up and wrist down also helps  level the rods.  Now while holding them level and parrallel to each other approximately 12" apart start walking.  When the rods begin to pass over a water source they will start pulling toward each other.  The stronger the source the more rapidly this will happen.  If there is any measurable amount of water present the rods will actually cross each other rapidly and end up 90 degrees to their original position as you were walking before any water was detected. Some even use forked limbs made of peach or willow trees they require a different technique. The downside is that some people are not able to operate dowsing rods. Not really sure why.  

When I do dowsing I will make multiple passes over the property in a grid fashion.  Starting east to west and then changing north to south walking approximately 10-15 feet parrallel to my previous line.  There is no significance to magnetic direction but merely  showing the grid process to ensure that you have adequately covered the area.   

[Don_P]

It certainly looks like a springbox. I get one of our summer neighbor's cleaned up and going every year, it is a setup that would work for your situation if this one pans out. The spring is a healthy seep from the side of a streambank and has a small springbox there. It is alongside the creek but not in the water, the water in the springbox is from a spring that feeds the creek... a subsurface tributary of the creek. The outflow pipe exits the springbox and continues downstream a bit to a spot where a cistern is buried. This is a septic tank with no baffle, just a hollow concrete box. The outflow from the spring drops into the tank and an overflow exits slightly below the spring inflow pipe. This gives about 1000 gallons storage and no water backup into the spring pipe, it just gravity feeds and drops into the cistern. In the bottom of the cistern is a submersible pump. The pump pushes water uphill to the cabin a few hundred feet away.

Whenever possible I prefer a well, but a spring is usually a lot cheaper to develop.

[frazoo]

walk slowly to give your rods time to 'react' to the change in fields they are passing over.  Walk too fast and you may miss what your rods are picking up. 

frazoo

[AdironDoc]

I'll give dowsing a try, but the locals swear by an old lady who they say has a track record of over 90%. How strong is the pull when you feel it?

As for the springbox, I'll be wanting to clear it out and pump it dry, then see how long till she fills back up. Could be, this will serve as a feed for a cistern this side of camp. Will still need to be filtered, no?

[Ernest T. Bass]

We just use coat hanger wire and it works great for dowsing rods. The "pull" is not real strong for me; the rods just cross by themselves in my hands. Also, if your rod is a couple feet long, try stopping directly over a spot where they cross. Hold one rod out over the spot and support your wrist with your other hand. The rod should start bouncing.. Count the bounces until they start to taper off and that should be the depth of the water in feet. An old local diviner with much success showed us this trick and it worked for a couple of us. We have a spot where we doused water at about 45 feet and want to try digging a well by hand, perhaps next year..

[PEG688]

Interesting thread and replies , nice job everybody

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

A little late weighing in, but I'd say a spring box/old spring house, too.  There was one like this on my aunt and uncle's property, only it had a little sandstone building over it to keep the water clean, and the little house stayed nice and cool all summer long.  It was used to chill their milk after milking time, etc.

[diyfrank]

Let me see if I'm getting this. If you dig a hole and line the hole with concrete, build a shed over it. The box fills with spring water and keeps the shed cool enough for food storage?

When using witching rods, one hand will work as well as using both hands. When the rod crosses to the side, you can use your other hand to pull it away and point it ahead. It will snap right back to where it was. It's not real strong but a definite pull to the side will be present.

[Redoverfarm]

Let me see if I'm getting this. If you dig a hole and line the hole with concrete, build a shed over it. The box fills with spring water and keeps the shed cool enough for food storage?

You would have to make sure that the spring has a continuing supply of spring water.  That supply will keep the water at the lower temps.  Without that continuing supply the water in the spring box would elevate to a surface temperature and not work.  Mostly the spring boxes were used as HT stated to sit milk cans in. Not real sure that you could substitute other foods in a thin walled metal can or not.   I am sure that cheese would probably keep but meats  

When using witching rods, one hand will work as well as using both hands. When the rod crosses to the side, you can use your other hand to pull it away and point it ahead. It will snap right back to where it was. It's not real strong but a definite pull to the side will be present.

Frank I never tried it "one handed" before so I am not sure how it would work or the accuracy.  Using two there is definitely a point that you can determine the location when both rods turn 90 deg crosssing each other.  When in doubt just back off, straighten the rods and walk again until they cross again.   That sort of eliminates the false positives.  Then when you walk perpendicular you should find the same location in a different direction.  Once you get a strong location in both directions that is where "I would drill".

[diyfrank]

I may build one and see how cool it stays, nothing to loose but time spent.

Redoverfarm
After using two, Give it a try using one and repeat.  The result should be exactly the same.
I used two hands for years, then went to just using one.
I think it was so my other hand could carry marking paint, 100' tape, pen/note pad, prints etc.

[AdironDoc]

It was always my (apparently mistaken) impression that springs bubbled out of the ground mostly due to pressure from below and that if one dug a hole and found water, that was a shallow well caused more by seepage of the water table than anything else. If one goes downgrade and digs, and the hole subsequently filled up with water, this would be a spring? I'm a bit cloudy on how springs and shallow wells differ.

As mine seems to be a springbox, can I assume this water is drinkable? Must it be filtered? Is there any way of having it tested to determine it's quality? 

[poppy]

Interesting thread expecially about the dowsing.  I was at a country auction last Sat. and they had a professional dowsing kit complete with wooden case and manual.  The dowsing rods had what looked to be white porcelain handles.

The auctioneer had the Amish helper walk in front of the crowd until the rods crossed and he said that was where the water line was under the building.  Then he instructed him to walk forward counting his steps until the rods uncrossed.  At the third step the rods uncrossed, so he said the water line was 3' down.

Then the auctioneer told a couple of "dowsing" stories and opened the bidding.  It sold for $1000.      Believe it or not.

Then the ex-husband of my wife's neice told me at the lunch trailer that he took the bidding to over $900.