My off grid water plan.. any thoughts?

[AdironDoc]

Nearing completion, my cabin remains without a well. At $5-7K, any plans for a well remain on the backburner. Instead, I've decided to use a spring box located approximately 550ft away for the season. I've cobbled together a rough plan I hope will be feasible.



At the moment, I have a 305 gallon storage tank up at the cabin. Aside from being 550ft away, the springbox is 15-20ft lower by elevation. Plan is to use my 12V Rule200 3amp submersible pump in the springbox. It's capable of a 32ft head. That should be enough to lift the water the 20ft up the hill, some 70ft in length with potable PVC piping into a rain barrel at the top of the hill. The pump will run on a battery set and my 50W 12V panel. From the top, it's level the rest of the way. A shurflo selfpriming  50PSI 12V pump at the cabin will pull water from that barrel to the cabin's storage tank as needed. From there my pressure pump will supply the pressure tank and the rest.

Anyone see any immediate problems with this setup? It's my attempt at a rudimentary water system on the cheap. As I have most of the stuff already, I'd only need to get the pipe and rainbarrel. I suppose I'll also need a float switch in the spring box so I don't get down to muck. I don't mind it overfilling the rainbarrel.

It would have been so much easier to lift water out of the creek, but I want to avoid expensive filtration systems, and there are so many little critters living in it 

Doc

[craig]

That model bilge pump may struggle with the head lift. It struggles to lift 6 feet so it may not work. You may need more of a pump than this.

[AdironDoc]

That model bilge pump may struggle with the head lift. It struggles to lift 6 feet so it may not work. You may need more of a pump than this.

They advertise a pretty decent flow rate even at 32ft of lift but I suppose they may be stretching it with their claims. It cost so little I figured it would be nice to have one around just to test the feasibility of a few simple setups, or, just to mess around with.

[UK4X4]

Creek wise

did you concider driving a sand point in it and pulling the water from beneath the creek-without the critters !

[AdironDoc]

Creek wise

did you concider driving a sand point in it and pulling the water from beneath the creek-without the critters !

That's an interesting thought. The creek bed in area is solid rock for the most part, and the DEC is plenty ornery about doing anything beyond fishing, but it's something I'd like to explore. Can't say I know for sure. I'm gonna ask my neighbor who does well drilling about getting under the creek.

I love this river pump, if only the resulting water didn't need major filtration and endless filter changing. Could still be the most feasible.
http://www.riferam.com/river/index.html

[hhbartlett]

I think with a little redesign you can eliminate the middle pumping step between the 100 gallon to the 300 gallon. The 100 gallon only need to be just a little higher, and with the right placement of hose once it fills up it will siphon itself into the large tank. That cycle will repeat itself automatically with no pump needed.

Something like this (you'd have to play with the design):

[hhbartlett]

I think with a little redesign you can eliminate the middle pumping step between the 100 gallon to the 300 gallon. The 100 gallon only need to be just a little higher, and with the right placement of hose once it fills up it will siphon itself into the large tank. That cycle will repeat itself automatically with no pump needed.

Something like this (you'd have to play with the design):

Of course, you could just eliminate that middle barrel altogether... since you have to have that much hose anyway. Lateral movement of water takes almost no power.

[Squirl]

Do you have a rule 200 or 2000? I have never seen smaller than a 360 for sale. If it is a 2000 you should be fine.  I had a 500 to pump out my foundation.  It easily pushed the water 7-8 ft up with 20 ft out at 10 gpm.

My only other advice is to have the water tested. Shallow wells and springs can have all sorts of pollution. You never know what someone else did to the land before you got it.  Even still a filter and/or UV disinfectant would be helpful. 

Also, make sure the spring is not downhill from a septic drain field.

[MountainDon]

I have trouble finding a lot on info on the 200 pump. I found it on amazon but it doesn't show on all the other results I get (save for a UK link) ??  And I see two models; 200 and 200p. Is it the 200p you are considering? It's cont duty, not intermittent like the 200.

I would also try to do without the middle tank. Seems unnecessary to me.    If the pump gets water to that upper, more or less level, ground it should be able to push the water horizontally, I'd think. 

[AdironDoc]

I have the Rule 200P. The middle tank was simply an intermediary step that I thought would be necessary because the Shurflo back 500ft at the cabin can probably pull laterally, but I didn't think it could handle the additional strain of a 15-20ft vertical. Thus, one low flow pump just to get that water up high enough (push), then the other to fill the 305 gallon (pull). Spring box was tested last year and checked out. Will still filter it once maybe. Do you think the 12V shurflo 50PSI unit has what it takes to make it past the intermediary 100 gallon barrel?

[MountainDon]

I don't know about the Shurflo.  My experience has been that their flow rate slows a lot when lifting water from a lower source. Have no idea how well they pull water through a long horizontal run though.   My thought was to have a pump down at the spring that had enough ooomph to raise the water to the more or less level ground and then continue that push to the house tank. Eliminate one holding tank.

With the imtermediate and end use tanks at the same level the Shurflo might handle that okay.   

[MountainDon]

I found more specs on that Rule iL200P

Grainger

80 GPH at 20 ft head

There is also a 500P model

and they are available in 24 VDC for those with system like mine (24 VDC)

[AdironDoc]

I found more specs on that Rule iL200P

Grainger

80 GPH at 20 ft head

There is also a 500P model

and they are available in 24 VDC for those with system like mine (24 VDC)

I paid only $36, so I could test the feasibility of this layout and do it on the cheap. According to the topo map (which lacks any magnitude of detail), the lift I need is around 15ft. Seems so from walking it too. Since the system is collecting water continuously and I'm only up at the camp every 1-2 weeks, even a trickle into the collecting barrel would suffice. It should arrive in a couple days, so I'll see what it can do. We've had a heck of a drought here so I'll need to see if the spring box has slowed or stopped. Instead of shocking the concrete box, I thought to put a liner in before I cover it all up. Clearly a float switch is in order to prevent running dry or sucking up the muck.

I'm liking the idea of elevating the intermediate barrel as high as the pump will allow. It's possible the larger container that will be buried at my camp will fill by itself.

[AdironDoc]

Wanted to follow up here. Over the weekend, I got a chance to lug a battery down into the ravine and threw the Rule200P in with a 5/8" hose attached. The pump eventually overcame the 50ft length and what seemed like a 20ft rise. When I added another length, no problem, until I added another 5ft of rise. Seems like the 32ft stated maximum head is well... a bit overstated. Anyway, I fell 10-15ft short of the hilltop. Next time I will try my shurflo which will generate something like 55PSI but is a bit overpowered for a 50W panel.

Some of you may recall that I had happened upon the springbox last year and tested the water with a home kit. The water came up ok for all but bacteria. This time, instead of testing the water in the box, I tested some water dripping out the higher of two pipes (overflow?). I did my best to clean out around 20lbs of rotting wood and debris from the box and threw in a half gallon of clorox. I never did get the water out so have no idea as to the box's refill rate. Preliminary testing shows no metals, good pH, hardness of 50, no chemicals. I'm waiting on the bacterial which should be read tomorrow.

I'm about the source of the "spring" box's water.. The box is situated just to the side of a ravine. It's also  near a marsh off the creek. Oddly, there are 2 pipes in the box, neither of which comes from the direction of the hill or ravine. I'm assuming the lower is the inlet, and the upper, even though it was dribbling water, is the overflow. The outflow makes sense, but I expected the inlet to be on the "uphill" side. Can this mean the water is coming from the swampy area below rather than hill above? I've never heard of a spring box with that configuration. I guess I'll really need to get that box totally clean and test the water thoroughly.

[firefox]

If you  used two of the rule200p's would the power usage be within the capabilities of the solar
system? If so you could have the second pump half way up the rise. A pressure switch on the suction side of the second pump could trigger it so that it didn't run dry. I think the power
drain on each one would be less since they would be working in tandem. Still may be too much
for the solar system, but you will have to be the judge of that.
Just a thought,
Bruce

[AdironDoc]

If you  used two of the rule200p's would the power usage be within the capabilities of the solar
system? If so you could have the second pump half way up the rise. A pressure switch on the suction side of the second pump could trigger it so that it didn't run dry. I think the power
drain on each one would be less since they would be working in tandem. Still may be too much
for the solar system, but you will have to be the judge of that.
Just a thought,
Bruce

That's a good idea. I'm not familiar with what sort of inline pressure switch I would need to use, but it seems reasonable that each will work less as you said. I believe that pump uses 54W to run. I have a 50W panel and would use two 6V cart batteries like up at the cabin. Add a simple controller to protect them. I wouldn't be using that much power in the end. I'm figuring that once the barrel at the top of the hill is full, the pumps would turn off by a float switch. We're only up on weekend, so, the barrel would have the rest of the week to fill and the batteries to charge. I'm going to see what the power consumption of the Jabsco Parmax 2.9 I have is. Maybe two Rule's aren't all that different.

[AdironDoc]

Although there's not much online about springbox design, I did find a few educational primers on design and realize I'm way off here. The links are below for the benefit of someone searching the threads like I had at first.

Apparent contradictions usually mean one or more failed premises. My premise was that one of the pipes was an intake. Almost all springbox design specs show the use of two pipes, such as in mine. The larger, higher pipe is an overflow. The pipe below immediately below is not an intake from a fenestrated length of pipe, but an outlet pipe used to move water to a storage container downhill of the springbox. The springbox almost invariably has a permeable wall section on the uphill side, or, a permeable bottom. Either way, it means I can't line the box with plastic or use a plastic tub to "catch" water. I can't wait to scrub her out.

http://www.ewb.neu.edu/wiki/files/11-springs-out.pdf
http://sites.tufts.edu/ewb/files/2010/04/Spring-Box-Design.pdf

[UK4X4]

Two pumps together still probably won't get the water any higher than one.

ie 2 20psi pumps in series will still only give you 20psi- but double the flow.

If you are running a panel and battery you can use the higher powered pump

As it will run off the battery and not direct from the panel, maybe need to setup a system with a timer or daylight sensor...ie limit the pump to a couple of hours a day operation so as not to drain the batteries completely.

calculate amp/hour in to the battery per day from the panel
Then limit the pump operation time to slightly less amps/hour

[firefox]

Yes, 2 pumps directly in series would only be 20psi, but if you place
the second pump halfway up the slope, then I believe it would work.
gravity doesn't care where you started, only the distance the mass is transported.
Bruce

[UK4X4]

"second pump half way up the rise"

yep missed that.

And I should have said paralel too ...

2 pumps in parralel = double flow same pressure
2 pumps in series = same flow same pressure if installed at the same place

Positive displacement pumps work diferently mind you

maybe the midway tank should be at the point where the first pump gets water too and then the second from there up to the ridge

.....above is only correct for some pumps

[AdironDoc]

I wish they made a simple pump with a screw type impeller, low flow and high pressure. All the pond pumps/fountain pumps can't reach more than 8ft of head. All the high pressure pumps are high powered at high GPM rates adequate for a shower. All I wanted was a trickle into a barrel all day. Well, I'll try my 12V 55psi pressure pump and see how it works. If I ran a second Rule 200P to a barrel halfway up the hill instead, what kind of pressure switch would I need and how would I install it?