I have a "general" floor plan but need some help

[Bill Houghton]

Hello,

What a fantastic site.  I can't stop coming here to read and especially look at pictures.  I am amazed at the work and beautiful homes you folks have built. 

If I may introduce myself:  my name is Bill Houghton, soon to be 52.  My wife and 14 year old son live in Marquette Michigan.  We have some land about 30 miles from town.  My plan is to build a 24 X 28 1.5 story cabin there.  We have clay soil and of course lots of snow and freezing temps.  I hope I can build with structural insulated panels.  I want to build as energy efficient as I can. 

Now if I may, my questions; would I benefit from buying a set of plans (I kind of adapted a floor plan from the many I have seen here) and buying the editing tools mentioned to make the changes I need?  Most of the SIP sites I have visited so far have departments that will do floor plans for the SIP part of my project, but I don't know how much detail.  Do I need to do wiring plans, plumbing plans, etc... and is that do-able with a set of stock plans and the editing tools? 

I would like to thank you in advance for any guidance you will offer.

Bill in the U.P.

[glenn kangiser]

John only has one set of 24 wide plans i think - the solar salt box, however we have talked of back to backing some of the 12 wide plans.  I think the poor mans sips John has mentioned before may work out cheaper and be conventional construction. to the forum.

[MountainDon]

Do I need to do wiring plans, plumbing plans, etc... 

Hi Bill, 

In a word, yes. Your local planning & zoning, development department or whatever they call themselves should have a detailed list of what is required for a permit(s) to be issued. The local authorities where we live have all that online. Their list includes such things as a lot plat indicating where the house, well & septic (if any) are to be located. In addition to the floor plan they want wall elevations, floor joist, ceiling and roof framing details, an electrical plan, an isometric drawing of the plumbing DWV, and some other stuff as well as a ResChek energy worksheet.

So check locally and see what they need. Some places may be happy with less.

SIP's can make you nice and cozy. Don't forget though that stick construction can work out well too, especially if you can get a blown in wet cellulose installer to do the walls. Icynene foam is another excellent insulation. Have you visited the Building Science website? They have methods specialized to different climates.

[Bill Houghton]

Thank you for the replies.

MountainDon,

I think things are a bit more "relaxed" here.  When we built our house 6 years ago, no plumbing or electrical plan was required.  So, I think they will require a general plan, like floor plan, and maybe that will be all.  Also, thank you for the link to the Building Science site.  I will be checking that out some more.

Glenn,

I will try and reach a couple of SIP companies this week and start some discussion with them.  Maybe my son and I could build a trial shed with the SIPs and see how that goes.  I really like the idea of the SIPs.  A trial building would give us a chance to get and use the specialty tools we would need for the larger camp project. A good site for SIPs with video is:  http://www.thermapan.com and I found this site also: http://www.sipschool.org


Bill in the U.P.

[Bill Houghton]

   Well, that didn't last long.  I spent about 5 hours reading today (sore behind) and may not be so fired up about the SIPs now.  One thought was, everything fails eventually, what will happen when the SIPs fail?  You will not have a building.  I see what that comment meant.  If one side of the SIP in the roof fails, there is nothing holding up the roof.  If there is rot of the OSB on a stick frame, tear it off and replace it.  Not so with SIP.  Hmmm.

Well, maybe back to plan one, which was 2 x 4 frame, put rigid insulation in the recesses, 1" over the 2 x 4's then another 2 x 4 wall for wiring, plumbing, batt insulation, etc... Hmmmm.   Ain't life grand.  I have already built this cabin in my head a bunch of different ways.  Helps me sleep.

Bill in the U.P.

[Ernest T. Bass]

A Houghton living in Marquette? The irony..

We're a few miles from Ontonagon. So... Welcome, eh?

[Bill Houghton]

Ernest,

Can I find your project on here?  Is it done? 

I love this site.  I hope I can build this year, but I have some things to work out.

Bill in the U.P.

[rwanders]

Have you considered using 2x6 framing?  The additional lumber cost is minimal but the added wall space allows much better insulation to be installed. Fiberglass batts are a lot cheaper then rigid foam too.

[Jochen]

Bill,

I would also consider using 2 x 6 wall studs. Fill them with fibreglass and put then a layer of 1 1/2" or 2" thick rigid foam on the outside. That should give you enough insulation. However I recently read that a standard 2 x 6 wall 16" CtC only has an R value of 12 when you count in the poor insulation value of the wood studs.

Jochen

[HomeschoolMom]

Bill, I was thinking SIPS too and I too got a little scarred.  We are thinking of 2x6 framing with 2x4 staggered studs...I don't know if that is what is considered the poor man's sips or not.  If not, point me in that direction please   

[glenn kangiser]

I remembered it was somewhere here.  Here is reference to it in this thread. 

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=291.0

Looks like it is in the Universal Cottage Plan.

In John's free resources... a Sips House - not poorman's I don't think - didn't read it.

http://www.countryplans.com/InlinePDF-2.html

More old SIPs discussion. http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=729.0

[Bill Houghton]

Good info all, thank you.  Didn't get time to contact any SIP Companies today.  I will do another search here to see if anyone has actually followed through and built with the SIP's.

Do the plans only go to 20 ft. wide for a reason?  Like conservation of floor joist size, roof rafter length, etc...?  The old cabin we tore down was 24 ft. wide so I can mentally plan what 24 ft. wide will be like. 

Bill in the U.P.

[Ernest T. Bass]

Can I find your project on here?  Is it done? 

Depends which project you are talking about..

We went uber-unconventional and build a cob/cordwood house.

http://home-n-stead.com/about/blog_files/category-3.html

The latest entry on the house was from about a year ago, and it is now more or less "done".

[Jochen]

20' is the maximum you can go without needing a center support and beam for your floor joists. But I have also used a center support and beam in my 20' wide cabin. I think it is more convenient to work this way and use then shorter length of  2" x 8" floor joist instead of 20' long 2" x 12". And I like the look of the center support and beam. John has also a 24' wide plan, his own Solar Saltbox for which I recently bought the plans. We will start building this next spring for my former wife.

Jochen

[Bill Houghton]

Ernest,

That is amazing!  I am on the floor bowing doing "I am not worthy."

Jochen,

Are you saying that the plans call for 20' long 2 x 12's for the second floor OR you can use a center beam and then 10' long 2 x 8's? 

Bill in the U.P.

[John_C]

With those 20' 2x12's comes the complete freedom to place the walls anywhere you want, or to have a big open space downstairs.

[Jochen]

Bill,

Correct. You can also use Wood I Beam Joist's instead of the 2" x 12" lumber if you can't get decent stock. And using a center support and beam doesn't mean that you are not free to place walls were you want. Only keep in mind that the beam will be visible. But that must not be a bad thing.

Jochen

[John Raabe]

Probably the most adaptable plan I have for what you are discussing here is the 20' wide Universal Cottage. It has...
• 2x6 walls for standard R-21 insulation and an optional detail for R30 using "poor man's SIPS" (interior foam to insulate the stud framing). This is much less expensive and easier to build and add onto than manufactured SIPS panel construction.
• The 20' wide building can be spanned by either first quality 2x12's or I-joists without a center line bearing beam. (This is the limit for cost effective framing). This is the simplest way to build at 20' wide, however...
• The floor framing plan ALSO has a plan with the floors framed with standard joists and an interior 6x beam and 6x6 posts for exposed timber framing at the interior. (Like is done in the Solar Saltbox plan). Thus it is relatively easy to widen this plan to 24', 26' or even 28'. You would have to resize the floor joists and the center bearing beam but these are simple calculations from a quick engineering consult.
• The roof can be framed with engineered trusses so that span and snow load are engineered by the truss company.

Link to Universal Cottage
Link to Solar Saltbox

[glenn kangiser]

Ernest,

That is amazing!  I am on the floor bowing doing "I am not worthy."

Jochen,

Are you saying that the plans call for 20' long 2 x 12's for the second floor OR you can use a center beam and then 10' long 2 x 8's? 

Bill in the U.P.

Ernest, (Andrew) asked me to quit bragging on him, Bill, so I will just casually mention that he is like around 19y.o. now and did that when he was like... around 17 I think-- Right, hmm  Andrew?

I know -- with the help of your family, eh? hmm

[Ernest T. Bass]

Genn Glenn Glenn Glenn......


I was 16.

Family provided the resources and grunt labor and I just did my best to point 'em in the right direction.

[Squirl]

Also, check with your local building inspector.  I have not built SIP, but I read many books researching it.  I heard a few stories where it was not approved.  If an inspector is not familiar with it and it is not traditional stick framed, it can be rejected or require special architectural stamping.  Remember 95% of all houses built in this country are stick frame.  As with anything in life, when you go outside the box, you can run into problems.

As far as insulation goes, SIP is one of the best, because the walls don't have the same amount of studs for heat loss.  Wood has an r-value of around 1 per inch and is accountable for a lot of the heat loss in areas.  The only better one I can think of is straw-bale, but you have 20-30 inch walls and it is nearly impossible to pass inspectors. 

You should check the local building code.  My building code requires R-30 Floor, R26 walls and R50 roof.  SIP's may be worth the additional cost.

Also, the time difference can be tremendous.  If you search around on the internet long enough, you will find a few blogs of people who build with SIP.  Some have been dried in with a 3 person crew in 3 days.  I'm sorry I lost some of the bookmarks.

[glenn kangiser]

Genn Glenn Glenn Glenn......


I was 16.

Family provided the resources and grunt labor and I just did my best to point 'em in the right direction.

hmm --- Even worse than I thought.  Andrew was running the show at 16......

[Bill Houghton]

About this 24' wide plan, I am thinking  I could use a center beam so I'd have 12' spans on either side and then for the second floor (as someone above suggested) use manufactured trusses.  For now I like that idea, but winter is long and as more info comes in.....   

It easier to change now than later, so I will keep hashing it over "till it feels right."   

Bill in the U.P.

[CREATIVE1]

I looked at SIPS too, and I know some builders in Florida who use them.  They scared me too.  I did find a block building product called Durisol which didn't seem to have the same failure issues.  

[Bill Houghton]

I looked at SIPS too, and I know some builders in Florida who use them.  They scared me too.  I did find a block building product called Durisol which didn't seem to have the same failure issues.  

Creative 1,

If I can accomplish a "superinsulated" level of insulation and energy efficency in this cabin, I will be happy.  I haven't had a lot of time to think through the foam board on the interior idea suggested yet.  My initial concern though, is I want to use all tongue and groove inside the cabin, on all walls, ceilings etc... and don't know how that would work with the foam.  I may still go with the double 2 x 4 wall as I mentioned above. I have a book on superinsulation and they show the rigid foam sandwiched
between the outside and inside 2 x 4 framing with the vapor barrier toward the "warm" side (I am in Michigan, warm side is the inside) This leaves the vapor barrier (and the rigid foam) with minimal penetrations.  The wiring etc, would go in the inside cavity with the rest of the space occupied by fiberglass.  Then the T & G (or drywall).  That seems do-able to me.  In my current house we used 2 x 6 walls with Icynene (sp) and it has performed well for us.  We firred out the basement walls with 2 x 4's but left the framing an inch from the block wall.  When they sprayed in the Icynene it filled that gap for a thermal break and gave us a 4 1/2" layer of insulation (besides the 2" I had outside of the block).  But, on this cabin, I want to do as much of it as I can myself (and my son) so I don't think I want to use any of the spray in type of insulations.

Thanks,

Bill in the U.P.