Bear Spray vs. Firearms

[Redoverfarm]

Believe me there is a method to this madness.  Load the pump with buckshot OO with the exception of the last in the magazine and use a slug.  That way the first shot which would be with further distance and the shock affect will slow the target down and give plenty of time to shuck the OO for follow-up closer shots.  Use just the opposite effect for two legged. Buck first and then slug. Don't ask me how I know this. 

[glenn kangiser]

Damn Yankees.  I learned to say that trucking in Texas.

The guys on the AGF didn't recommend the pistol grip on the shotgun.  Seems it would be hard to control and probably tear my wrist off.

Buckshot size for Bear? Looks like John just posted 00 -- although I prefer to wait until it leaves for the summer -- I hope.  I've been thinking about putting fishing line across the opening to see if it's used or not...although it could still be sleeping in there.  I wonder if they get mad if you wake them up? 

Maybe I should take it a cup of coffee and the Sunday Morning paper. hmm

[glenn kangiser]

Gandalf, that was actually Jim Alaska? 

I type at him on the AGF.

[peternap]

Might be time for a gamecam Glenn. I just ordered 2 of these:
http://www.scouting-cam.com/scgusgscca.html

[glenn kangiser]

That could be a good idea - If I hid it well enough to keep it from getting ripped off.  Not many people down there but it is BLM land or right next to it.  I don't know where the line is for sure.

[MountainDon]

If you're interested in more, lots more info, on game cameras go to http://www.chasingame.com/forum/index.php

There's guys there who've given the cameras a 3D camo job, beginning with liquid nails and then camo paint. There are also steel cases avaiable. 

[John_C]

I've shot the pistol gripped shotguns and didn't feel like I could control them very well.  If I was in an area with large bears and was willing to carry a long arm it would be the 45-70 lever action. A .44 mag revolver would be my handgun of choice.

Here in the southeast where everything except hogs are smaller my walking around guns are a 30-30 or a .44 mag rifle.  If I lived in S GA where hogzilla resides I might want that 45-70.  I've alway lived in woodsy, brushy areas where long shots were not likely.  I've owned a few long range rifles but have never hunted an area where they would be necessary.  On my property if you just sit still on a stump for a while you'll get a 25 - 40 yd. shot at a deer. You don't need to be a great marksman or have a big gun for that. 

A 250 lb. bear would be an average black bear hereabouts. Neither as large, aggressive or tenacious as the western varieties.

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks Don. 

Guess I better research the boundaries and see what my chances are of actually getting to play there.

This mine is one of few open ones in one of the hottest mining districts around here and about 2 miles from my house-- dates back to about 1860.  I just wish I knew if that bear was home or not.  Guess I better read up on the sleeping habits of bears now.

[John_C]

Hey Glenn     have you seen the movie

The Ghost and the Darkness?

True story mostly. The real Lions of Tsavo were mane less.

[glenn kangiser]

No - haven't  seen that one.

[MountainDon]

peter nap hangs around that game camera site as well. He supplied the lead.

http://www.chasingame.com/forum/index.php

[gandalfthegrey]

Gandalf, that was actually Jim Alaska? 

I type at him on the AGF.

The one and only!  He does get around.

[rwanders]

I've lived in Alaska for over 40 years and I can't remember a bear attack (black or brown) that was initiated more than 25-30 yards away---almost always when the bear is either surprised or is protecting a previous kill such as a moose carcass. Believe me a big brownie can cover that distance at least as fast as a good quarterhorse.  I don't know any experienced hunter/fisherman here who would not prefer a 12 ga loaded with 00 buck and slugs for their last ditch weapon---though those large bear sprays (not people sprayers) also have proven to be pretty effective. A handgun is certainly better than nothing but unless the person holding it is extremely good (and lucky) he will probably not be able to strike the very small spot on a grizzlies' forehead to bring it down immediately. Bears seldom stand up as they attack---usually only when they are not sure what you are and are trying to get a better look at you which means a successful frontal heart shot is also unlikely. A major advantage to a load of 00 from a 12 ga at close range is the good chance of blinding a charging bear. Also, the shocking power of a 12 ga 1 1/4 oz slug or even the 00 is truly stupendous.  I have never personally had to survive a bear charge, but I have had four friends mauled by brownies, two were killed, two survived. One survivor had a 30.06, though he never got a shot off before the bear was on him, one had a 44 magnum and he failed to get an effective shot off before TWO browns took turns on him (he had interrupted a brown bear honeymoon near Skwenta) His story of survival was printed in Readers Digest several years ago. The two killed (mother & son) were jogging just outside Anchorage when they surprised a brown bear who had a fresh moose kill just off the trail they were on.

[MountainDon]

Thanks, rwanders. A while back on another thread about bears and defense another Alaskan ststed very much the same thing.

Over the years I have been fortunate. Fortunate in that a couple times as I proceeded up a trail I was downwind (sheer dumb luck) and saw the bears before they saw me, but they were only about 50-60 feet ahead, just over a slight rise. (Mom and cubs once, on opposite sides of the trail.) That could have had a different end result. That was in a national park in BC and back then I didn't even have bear spray! I always wondered what if the bears had smelled me, would they have have retreated before I ever saw them?   

Fortunate in that I once woke early, heard rummaging noises outside the tent, peered out and saw a bear sitting on the picnic table across the campground road. Also in a national park. I quietly got in the car and took pictures as the bear destroyed the picnic cooler.

There have been some other times along trails and in campgrounds but those are the ones that stick in my mind the most. Fortunately I keep a clean camp and the less tidy campers get visited before myself.

Last year we were alerted to the presence of a bear in the immediate vicinity by a still warm pile of stool and suspicious nearby noises. It sounded very close. The area is well treed with low long range visibility due to low bushy trailside vegetation. Of course we know there are bears around us, this was just a hot reminder.

I think my luck must be wearing thin so I want to up the ante.

[MountainDon]

On the pistol grip yes/no question... something I just discovered for anyone looking at a new shotgun ... there is an 18 1/2 inch barrel model 500 that comes with the pistol grip included. Same safety operation issue as Peter mentioned.  Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[NM_Shooter]

Just for a weird hijack offering:

A kid showed up at a sporting clay shoot that I was at with a pistol grip shotgun.  It had a buttstock, but also a pistol grip, sort of like an AR15.  I think it was a Mossberg...People sort of snickered, but he broke 70/100 that day and beat most shooters.  (While using the pistol grip, no less)

[Willy]

Just for a weird hijack offering:

A kid showed up at a sporting clay shoot that I was at with a pistol grip shotgun.  It had a buttstock, but also a pistol grip, sort of like an AR15.  I think it was a Mossberg...People sort of snickered, but he broke 70/100 that day and beat most shooters.  (While using the pistol grip, no less)

Now that pistol grip added to the buttstock is nice! I am thinking of adding one to my defence shotgun. It gives you a solid grip to pull the stock into your sholder and also allow you hand to take some of the kick. The pistol grip I don't like is the one they put on after they remove the stock and try to make it look like a pistol instead. Mark

[MountainDon]

More reading. More looking.

There is no doubt at all that a good bear spray should be carried by both parties (me & K) up in the mountains.

But the large bore rifle vs shotgun thing has me wondering still. The more I read about shotguns and dangerous animals I see more disagreement on 00 buckshot vs rifled slugs.

Looking at the ability to penetrate thick fur and hide deeply enough to do damage, it seems that buckshot is at the bottom of the list, a slug are better, but a 400 gr. 45-70 bullet penetrates best of the three. But I'm still looking.

[glenn kangiser]

Where does the 30.06 fit into the above power ranges you mention, Don?  I'm not familiar with the 45-70.

It's my only larger rifle -- learned to shoot with one and it's all I ever got.

[peternap]

Where does the 30.06 fit into the above power ranges you mention, Don?  I'm not familiar with the 45-70.

It's my only larger rifle -- learned to shoot with one and it's all I ever got.

Boy....this subject has started more bar fights than looksom ladies.

My opinion.... , All three are world class cartridges !!!!!!

All three have killed everything in the world including Elephant.

The Marlin Guide Gun, which Don and I both have abd both love, was designed for people in Bear country.

So here is my opinion without throwing ballistic coefficients. Sectional densities Velocities, etc at you:

under 20 yards, the 12 ga with buckshot, wither 00 or 000.
20 to 100 yards, the 45/70.
100 to 275 yards, the 30/06 with 189 gr bullets

[BiggKidd]

Guys,

A real good brush gun is a Ruger .44mag carbine. Still only good out to about 100 yards. But its fairly light and holds five rounds. What I realy like about it is its short enough to get into action quickly and automatic. I have even shot one single handed and its not to bad to control. Does kick pretty good being short and light though about like a single shot 12ga. with 3in. mag.. If interested in one of these get an older model they have changed, the new ones are not as dependable. I found one last year at a gun show I should have bought for $400.

Larry

[John_C]

Boy....this subject has started more bar fights than looksom ladies.

No kidding!  Let's confuse this even more

Downrange as Peter said the 30-06 would be the best of these three although still considered light for big bear.  If I had to use it up close I'd use 200 - 220 grain solid bullets.

Up close and personal the shotgun or 45-70 would likely be better. Either of those is throwing about an ounce of lead at the critter, more than twice the 180 grain  30-06 load.  The 30-06 bullet is meant to hold velocity and expand at the remaining velocity 100 - 200 yds downrange.  At point blank range on a thick boned animal it is more likely to fragment and less likely to break heavy bone than the others. 

This thread has only touched on shot placement.  rwanders brought up the difficulties of a brain or heart shot if the bear is charging.  The buckshot in the eyes might be one strategy with the hope of hitting the brain or at least buying time for follow up shot(s).  Another would be to try to go through a shoulder and hit other vital organs or spine.  A shattered shoulder will likely cause the bear to stumble again giving you some time.  For that shot the 12 ga. slug or 45-70 is far better.

There is one other issue with the 45-70.  A lot of ammo manufacturers sell loads suitable for use in the late civil war era Trapdoor Springfield.  These loads intended for that comparatively weak action are pretty wimpy by modern standards.  The Marlin lever action and several others can handle MUCH hotter loads.  That ammo will have a warning on the box "only for use in ............"  Garrett cartridges has a 45-70 load with a 540 grain bullet.

These are the rumination of a one who has NOT been there - done that.  I've shot a lot and hunted some but never where big critters with bad attitudes live.

Anything in roughly the 30-06 class and up can and has killed anything that walks the planet.  It has been said that the lowly 7x57 Mauser (less powerful than 30-06) has killed more Elephants than any other cartridge. Military surplus rifles in that caliber were plentiful and cheap in Africa after the Boer War.  A lot of the Ivory hunters in the early 1900's used it and the even less powerful 6x55 Swede.  W.D.M. "Karamojo" Bell used the later to kill most of his roughly 1000 elephants.  In todays would it is illegal to hunt the big 5 with anything smaller than a .375 mag. which has roughly twice the power.  Most hunters uses even more powerful cartridges.  Poachers still often use the smaller guns.  I have a friend who is the editor of African Hunter web site.  I always liked his description of a brain shot on an elephant.  "It's like trying to hit a basketball somewhere inside a Volkswagen".  Clearly he favored body shots.

So in the end choose your weapon, pick your shot(s), run like hell, change your shorts.

[glenn kangiser]

This is getting interesting - thanks. guys.

[John_C]

Lot's of calibers discussed here

http://www.chuckhawks.com/gun_game.htm

BTW  It is my understanding that Native Americans in the north used to hunt polar bear with .22 hornet rifles.   While better than a spear still not for the faint of heart.

[John_C]

Found this excerpt while poking about the web... Definitely not enough gun

I had one rush me when i was about 6. It was a black bear though, and not as big as that one. My dog scared it off. I remember standing there frozen holding my water gun pointed at the bear.

Proud Canadian Redneck