NE1 use a generator for power?

[Ray_N]

I'm guessing that because of the Y2k scare that there as been a wider selection of generators and their subsystems for use as cabin power.

Can anyone share some light (no pun intended) on the feasibility of using a generator,  what is needed in terms of amount of gas storage, batteires, or other subsystems?  I guess I'm looking for pro's, con's, good links and general info.

Thanks!

[John Raabe]

Backwoods Solar has some of the best information on not only solar electric panels, but the entire setup for an independent power system. The link below is to their section on generators.

http://www.backwoodssolar.com/Catalogpages2/gen2.htm

Here is a guide to estimating how much of a generator you really need.

http://www.mayberrys.com/honda/generator/html/selection.htm

I have a little 1kw Yamaha that just keeps the freezer and Refr. working during our short and very occasional power outages. If I were buying a new one I would get something closer to 3 to 5 Kw and have some extra capacity.

[glenn kangiser]

I am on 100% solar and wind with a generator backup.  In CA. we have pretty good solar resources so I don't use the generator much.  I have 1320 watts solar panels and a 1000 watt wind generator.  The wind generator probably supplies about 1/3 of my power.  I use the generator about 2 hours per week on the average in periods of no sun or heavy construction to charge batteries.  I have 8 L16 375AH batteries and 4 deep cycle 115AH batteries for storage.  I run a 4000 watt generator and my 4000 watt Trace  sine wave inverter automatically matches available generator power with its demand so does not overtax the generator. I run a freezer, refrigerator and printer copier  full time along with normal house lighting, computers and wireless DSL and print server.   Solar panels are around $4.00 per watt now and L16s are about $150 each.  A 1kw wind generator with tower is around $4000 plus install.  I also pump water with my solar power as needed.

I don't think the generator itself would be practical without the battery storage and inverter, since the generator is off most of the time.  

Glenn

[Ray_N]

Thanks for the reply Glenn,  so it can be done.  The land being in the Northeast in the woods probably eliminates the wind and solar as a possibility.

However a generator with a bank of batteries sounds like it could work for a weekend getaway in the woods.  With your set up do you use normal off the shelf appliances?  

I'll look for a website with battery info,  would be good to know how many and what kind of inverters is needed.

[glenn kangiser]

It depends on what your requirements are but you can do a lot with a small setup.    All my appliances are off the shelf 110 v standard stuff.  Most large inverters have a good battery charger built in. Most automotive type dont but a auto battery charger will charge the batteries.   I use mine for everything so I went to a 4000 watt sine wave inverter.  Some things will not work on a modified sine wave inverter.    Use only compact flourescents for light -  they really stretch battery power.   It will even run my 220 v  1.5  hp  water well pump with a step-up transformer..   Some rough rule of thumb stuff here----Figure out the hours you want to use each item each day times the watts they use.    That is how many watts you want for the day.  Also figure  everything you want on at once.  Get a little larger inverter than that.  A battery stores about 70% of what you put in it.  Put in 1000 watts get about 700 out-   A 100 amp hour deep cycle battery at 12 volts can hold 1200 watts when charged but you can only safely use about 1/2 without damaging the battery so count it as storing 600 watts when charged.  For a small system deep cycle marine batteries will work but when you get serious go to L16s -375 amp hour deep cycle -  I have 8 of them -  Roughly should have 9000 watts usable storage.

To play with - go to Walmart or a auto discount place and look at the modified sine wave inverters- get one if you want and try it out - larger than 150 watts need to connect to the battery direct rather than a cigarette lighter. Don't expect them to last a real long tiime under heavy usage.  Allow extra for surge on startup- most inverters will handle startup surge.  The small ones run small things such as a few lights a computer or TV - etc.   Amps time volts equals watts-  They usually have a chart telling you what they will run.  As  inverters get larger wire sizes get large on the primary side.  My cabin usually runs on about 2 amps at 110 volts or about 220 watts continuous average - this is about 5280 watts per day.    Roughly with no wind or solar I would need to run a 6000 watt generator about 1.5 hours or create 9000 watts to store this much.    A  3000 watt generator would run for 3 hours.  I run a whole house hold on this including a freezer and refrigerator- your cabin  probably would not use near this on a weekend deal.

Note:  The above info is off the top of my head and may not be totally accurate.

Glenn

[Amanda_931]

I'd think, having heard my PV friends here explain that EVERYBODY ruins their first set of batteries, that really, it would be more likely sooner than later if you were using a generator for your source of power.

I do know a handful of people here (Tennessee down near the Alabama/Mississippi border) who have all PV that works successfully.  At least after a couple of years of shakeout.  It's not uncommon here to have two weeks in January and NEVER SEE THE SUN!  They do all have something in the way of a generator--usually whatever was cheap, or at a garage sale or a pawn shop.  And they whine a lot about having to use it. One of them DID have a mini-hydro, all home-built, no longer working, but he's jealous enough of the setup in the next county that he'll probably have to redo it.

And there's a woman in the next county who lucked out and has more power than she can use because there is a largish never-failed creek running next to her house.  So she has a mini-hydro for her power, and a ram pump to put water into her cistern.  I think she has a small battery system.

Up in Kentucky near Elizabethtown, I know (mostly know OF) people who do wind very successfully.  which is good, because I gather that the period without sun is greater there than here.

So don't just think "I live in the Northeast, I can't do PV."  Do some checking.  I've heard that New England Solar (right name?) is a good resource for most of us in the east.

[glenn kangiser]

Another point or two - it doesn't have to be warm to have good solar- just sunshine-  cloudy days still produce some solar.  A point brought up by Amanda-- ruining batteries-- be sure to charge them good before you leave- also it would be important to have some solar to keep them topped up.  Dead batteries will sulfate ruining them - they will not come back if left dead long.

Glenn

[Mark H]

Power systems that are 100% generator powered are completely possible. However, you need a generator designed to be run more frequently, ideally with good fuel efficiency and low maintenance. Otherwise, if you pick up a lowes or home depot model, perpare on replacing it every couple years, and spending a small fortune on gas along the way. For these reasons, Diesel is almost always the recomended generator choice. If you can have a fuel tank delivered and perhaps buried with fuel delivered, this is the way to go in my opinion. Gas generators typically run at 3600rpm, while your typical diesal set runs at half that, which is quieter too obviously. Diesel gens cost more up front, as do all things that are built to last. If you have any doubts, look at what the department of defense uses at all of its installations that run on generator power. You really can't beat diesel. When shopping for generators, focus on those that were designed to be tied into a homes power system, not the ones that are "semi-portable" and designed to run ad hoc power tools for small durations. Electric start is a good option too since your inverter can start the generator for you when you have batteries that need to be recharged. Since the generator will be the largest, single point of failure in your system, spend the bucks and get the best one you can. The initial savings you see when buying the home depot model will go out the window when you factor in maintenance, gas, and durability. Just my 2cents.

Regards,
Mark

[glenn kangiser]

Mark H posted some good information- I have to agree with all of it.  I don't remember seeing it posted but a diesel will give you about twice the runtime on a similar amount of fuel, and if you buy off road diesel then the cost is also less for fuel.

I made a deal today to get a small high quality diesel generator that is water cooled.  I will plumb the water to my hot tub  so I can peak up the charge on the batteries and enjoy a good warm soak for the same money

[glenn kangiser]

I hooked up the generator  last week.  It is a Volvo 1 cylinder 1800 rpm water cooled marine diesel rated at 3500 watts.  My inverter automatically adjusts for the size generator available so it is no problem being small.  It pulls at about 15 to 17 amps.  I hooked the cooling water to my hydronic heating tubes for the cabin so cooling heat is not wasted.  Later I will switch it to the hot tub for summer.  Not a fancy hookup yet-- still needs soundproofing but it works and only seems to burn about 1/2 gallon per hour.

[Greenbank]

And, hey, in a diesel generator you could potentially run biodiesel fuel, which is friendlier than the petro kind.

[DavidLeBlanc]

If you're going to run 100% generator, you'll need 2 generators: 1 on standby/maintenence and the other supplying the load.

I think the US Navy base in Australia actually had 3: maintenence, standby and operate. 36 cylinder monsters (I think it was), with pistons the size of 55 gallon drums. Ran under 400 RPM.

It cooked dirt when the load dropped off!

[glenn kangiser]

Wood gas is also an option even with a diesel as long as you have idle diesel to keep things lubed.   The bio diesel is probably a better option though.

I use the generator as backup for solar panels and my wind generator.  Yesterday I rigged a relay to come on when the wind and solar overcharged the batteries.  My wind controller has a sensor for overcharge and triggers a dump load to burn off the extra.  I hooked the relayto the dump load and other side to my water pump so when overcharging I burn it off by pumping water.  I was overcharging yesterday.  Around here when we butcher a pig we try to use everything but the squeal

David, I used to work around some gigantic Fairbanks Morse engines in the oil field - built a water cooled intake manifold for one -probably rejacketed it only.  I really liked those old monsters.  They ran compressors there.  Even though ancient, they were so good they were purchased and put to work again in Texas.

[DavidLeBlanc]

Much of the world runs on diesel generators. Diesel mechanic is said to be one of the 3 proffessions in the world where you can go anywhere and be offered a high paying job (relative to the local economy).

As I recall, one of those big old diesels on the Navy base took hours to come up to speed and temperature and would have been seriously damaged if pushed too fast. RPM increases were measured in minutes!

With the typical adjoining machine shop and sufficent raw materials, they are constantly rebuilt, about every 2,000 hours on the clock.

[JRR]

Okay, David .... so what are the other two high paying professions?

Since this is a family forum, you may have to send the answer in a private message.

[Amanda_931]

Surgeon?

Mercenary soldier?

Oil field mechanic?

I'd thought that the old Hardy Diesels were gone but they do seem to be still around.  (means that if you find one, you don't have to be able to make parts for it!)

[glenn kangiser]

Why did you have to use the words-- make parts for, Amanda   -- now you  made me have to start another topic.  

[conohawk]

I have a Kubota GL 6500 diesel generator.   In a moment of inattention, I managed to purchase a variation of it that runs
at a higher RPM (I very much wanted 1800 RPM).

The Kubota functions well enough, but I have to admit to being overcome with "low-tech" fever.  Another forum introduced me to  the old-style Lister-oid engines being built in India.    These typically operate at 600 RPM.  In combination with a generator head, they apparently can reliably supply power over many many years.

The smaller units cost about 800 USD from US-based importers.

See  http://www.utterpower.com/listeroi.htm for more info.  

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks for the link, conohawk.  I also collect antique engines - that is why I learned casting- to make parts for them-- it seems that any skill you learn can be transferred to other areas