New Forum guidelines

John Raabe · March 04, 2005, 01:55:38 PM

As this forum has grown more popular and less focused over the last few months it is taking more and more time (and expense) to keep up with. When it was dealing mostly with my CountryPlans projects I was willing to devote the time needed to helping folks with their projects.

However, I am no longer able to read and respond to posts on the General Forum with any certainty or regularity. So, I have set up a special forum for serious questions about my plans from people who are either planning to or have already bought plans from this site. See the Plans Support forum. http://countryplans.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=4. That I will monitor regularly.

Questions and comments not related to my plans are still welcome here but I will have to restrict my support to those people who have seriously started the process of planning a house by committing to buying plans and ordering the books (http://www.countryplans.com/books.html) that will help them plan and build it. (Ordering a book from these links help to support this forum.)

As the cost and time involved in supporting this forum has grown, so has the liability I am taking on by doing this. As you know, hackers, spammers and crooks can shut down sites and a frivolous lawsuit by someone angry about some real or imagined advice they got here could close down the whole business (or worse).

This is, in general, a great group of posters and the combined wisdom and helpful support available here is quite amazing and unique. Let's make sure that this trust and help is not taken advantage of and that people don't become burned out.

This is not a place to expect free consulting or design services on vague future building projects or wishful thinking. I would like to ask your help in gently moving such folks to the exits and in being careful about any advice you give here.

Please alert me immediately about any angry or disrespectful threads (these are the ones that can be costly). Email: webmaster@countryplans.com

I would be interested in your comments on how to best keep this forum focused on the building of smaller wood frame houses and cottages and the people who will or are actually doing it.

Shelley · March 04, 2005, 02:39:53 PM

So if I get this right....second forum is John specific.

You're going to leave us running amuck to talk about all sorts of crazy things?

Sounds more than fair to me. And, it's a good marketing tool, tho you may not be able to specifically tie expense to profit.

I ordered your sunkit and the little house stuff for a well house. Probably wouldn't have done that had it not been for this forum.

Thanks

March 04, 2005, 03:18:55 PM

I was wondering if traffic was growing to this site as I have noticed quite a few new members and many guests - as Shelly mentioned it draws in people who are possibly interested in buying -if it doesn't get to be a burden that cost more than the value of it to you.

A diversity of topics makes more advertising and exposure- more exposure makes more work. Hopefully it makes more income but sometimes it only makes more work. Would you be able to supply books on the topics we cover or is that getting too far out of your range of interests? Also it seems that if you are interested in selling more books, a direct link on the home page may be easier to find than going to the tools menu first. Just a thought as I was looking to see if you carried the "American Shelter" book and had a little trouble finding the book section.

Let me know what I can do to help. Feel free to e-mail or message me if you want.

Jimmy C. · March 04, 2005, 03:39:30 PM

QuoteSo if I get this right....second forum is John specific.

I ordered your sunkit and the little house stuff for a well house. Probably wouldn't have done that had it not been for this forum.

Thanks

I feel the same way as Shelley, with my Universal 2 storey plans. This forum was the deciding factor for my purchace.
I've learned a lot from reading these posts. It is a terrible thing these days to always have to watch you back because of lawsuits.

I was unaware that the books from the links provided helped to support this forum. If I had known that I wouldn't have bought mine from the local bookstore. The next book I need will come from the links.

As a member of several forums I've noticed that my favorites all have a section for discussing any topic, sharing funny news reports, pictures ect.
mostly just a place for the regulars to relax and go off topic, but staying close to the subject at hand.

(My 2 cents) Jimmy

Chuckca · March 04, 2005, 03:58:38 PM

RANT time

Let's face it....John has put his time, talent, money, and energy to give us a place to share, grow, and get valuable info/help....about HIS designs and plans....

My take is this.....we're not paying for his advice or ISP/web hosting services....the least we can do is keep the topics centered around "Country Plans"...this was the intent and purpose of this site..and...the forum.

Lately....there've been dozens of posts and threads about other companys and designs....some of this is ok....but...for me it's getting out of hand...

Can we get back to the topic of "Country Plans . Com"

Disclaimer: I'm not a moderator nor do I work for John....nothing to do with CP...except that it's my daily paper, never miss a day and I always recommend CP to others....

Rant over!

Thanks
Chuck (CA)

March 04, 2005, 04:05:32 PM

John, I apologize if I have contributed to the off-topic posting - I'll try to stay more on base. I have purchased the Builder's Cottage plans, and also have had a custom consult with you on a small house design of my own. My land three states away is for sale so that I can buy land locally and build the Builder's Cottage.

In the meantime, I have enjoyed "hanging out" here on the forum because it seems increasingly difficult to find like-minded individuals who have no interest in a 4,000 square foot McHouse and the McMortgage that goes with it.

glenn kangiser · March 04, 2005, 04:52:03 PM

I don't think John is totally opposed to other subjects being discussed as he allows competitive Google Adds on his site and invited me here to answer questions about the underground house and it looks like at least 3 sales above by people who were attracted here by one topic or another or possibly by being able to get into a group they weren't intimidated by. I will support John by buying one of his larger cabin plans when I am ready to put a rental (built to code) on my other property. Another reason that I am here is that John is willing to help others. I hope he also benefits.

I think we should know that what we are answering is correct to the best of our knowledge- I specifically try to be sure that I don't post an answer I am not qualified to answer. I think other knowledgeable qualified people can also help John by answering questions that are in their area of expertise thereby reducing the load on John and making information available that wouldn't otherwise be there. Shelly's posting about the styrofoam-laquer thinner would be very hard to find in any other environment, but it still could be useful in one of John's cabins if someone put in a stabilized adobe block wall - etc.

We regularly see general engineering, plumbing framing and other questions answered, which is also what draws John's customers or future customers to the site. And again-- No guarantees- refer to a local qualified professional or your building department.

As to the humor--John seem's to jump in there and slip on a tool belt once in a while. What would the morning paper be without a few funnies

DavidLeBlanc · March 04, 2005, 10:10:44 PM

For myself, I would not be here and posting if I wasn't interested in, and have the intention of buying one of is plans if I can see that it will work for me. By nature (being a software developer), I tend to want every "i" dotted and every "t" crossed, so that's going to generate a lot of questions. Also, as my life has evolved, my needs have too. I've recently, and somewhat reluctantly come to the conclusion that the cosy little bedroom-nest in the loft is not going to be feasible for me due to health and age. Now I need to think about something all on one level but still small and cozy. As John's plans tend to lean towards the mainfloor + loft scenario, maybe I will have to move on... On the other hand, if they don't, then I want to stay and develop that idea to a point where I feel comfortable that an investment in plans (even though, especially with John's plans, it's a tiny, tiny percentage of final project cost).

Whatever happens, I hope that whatever I have contributed has been of some value to someone.

With respect to liability issues, I think a statement at the top of the forum page along these lines would tend to limit that:

"The opinions expressed here in are those of the forum posters and in no way constitute an endorsement of any idea, product or service by Cottage Plans, LLC or it's employees.

Remarks by John Raabe are informal and of a general nature and are not, and should not be taken to be, of a professional nature. Proffessional services, including plans modifications and advice on specific matters are available as part of John Raabe's proffessional architecture practice, available only after first entering into a Proffessional Services Agreement and upon payment of a consultation fee.

Cottage Plans, LLC specificially desclaims any assumption of liability, under any theory of law, for damages or harm for any remarks made by it or it's employees, registered forum users or guests, whether Cottage Plans, LLC has been advised of the possibility of such damage or harm or not.

By entering this site, you assume the entire liability for whatever use you make of any information you find here. "

The above might chill a few people, but not nearly as much as a liability suit would chill this site!

Oh yes - the above suggested notice should be vetted by a legal professional - I am not one and it is only my personal opinion!

Amanda_931 · March 04, 2005, 10:59:53 PM

Will success spoil this forum...stay tuned.

I must say I enjoy it--and I'm learning how little I know about some pretty obvious things. Wiring for one.

March 05, 2005, 12:33:18 PM

Thanks for all the support and helpful comments.

I really don't want to stifle the discussion here... and I'm not upset with anyone who has been active here.

Yesterday was a tough day for me and I may have been a bit more petulant than normal.

I enjoy the humor and occasional irreverence myself (at least when in a good mood!) And, I've been as guilty as anyone about encouraging things like expecting free consulting when I've done quick engineering calcs for visitors who aren't building anything related to my plans. That I should no longer be doing for lots of reasons.

I also don't mind folks talking about and giving links to other plan sites - the Google ads are a feature that brings in both plan competition and about $150/mo to this site. So, I'm not afraid that my plans don't stand up well to the others out on the web.

I'm glad to see an active and far ranging discussion, but as it gets more broad I will need to focus on the Plans Support forum for more of my own limited time.

I like David's suggested wording for the usage agreement and such things do help reasonable people understand what is expected of them. (Thankfully, EVERYONE now on the board meets that description.)

Legal problems with government agencies rather that an angry visitor is potentially more devastating. I once had to pay $66,000 to the audit department of a federal agency who admitted in the end that me and my partners probably hadn't done anything wrong. However, they needed to justify their large budget and the legions of lawyers on staff by making some of their contractors look like crooks. After a year and 1/2 we could no longer continue paying the legal cost of our defense so gave into a settlement.

That was a bitter and very arbitrary pill to have to swallow and I don't want another one, please.

When it comes to government, it is hard to know where the next wave of lawsuits might come from and what small fish will be caught in a net setup for others. A sweep of the Internet is certainly in the cards sometime soon.

Let's just be careful about qualifying any advice we give.

glenn kangiser · March 05, 2005, 02:35:57 PM

On another note, I went back through my recent postings and edited one which I thought was not offensive to me and probably not to our current group of posters, as I didn't receive any hate mail. I was thinking that while the regular posters may not be highly offended, that someone who just drops in new and has more rigid views may be.

The nice thing about this new board is that we can edit our postings. They are not set in stone after we send them taking an act of congress to modify. Another nice feature is the private message feature.

Since John can't look at all the postings on the board regularly, and since I am likely to be one of the offending parties (high tolerance for bad humor) I am requesting that posters send me a private message if they are offended by one of my postings or think others may be offended by one of my postings.

Also since I am fairly prominent here, and have a little extra time when I am not working on a large contract job, I would be happy to assist John by receiving private messages about offensive postings by others, so I could send a private message to the offending poster without it going to Johns level. In this way it could be changed before John has to be concerned with it. We could self montor without having to have a censor. I don't want any power. I hate picky petty clubs with little internal government power struggles and have quit several because of it. I stay here because of the freedom John allows us. I would just pass on notice that an anonymous person had an issue with a posting. If the problem remained, John could be notified.

This could also work if John has concerns about liability issues involving postings. John, please private message me about any concerns you have about liability issues regarding my postings and I will be happy to modify them.

I also understand the dealing with government problems and have forked over about $68000 to fed and state for two things over the last 30 years which are unconstitutional. Unfortunately economically we are forced to settle with them sometimes rather continue to fight which only reinforces their bad behavior.

George Tenet did recently say that government had to get control of the Internet.

Now for comments-- is this a good or bad idea-- would it help-- are there objections.

Kevin · March 05, 2005, 07:52:33 PM

It is a shame that all this has to happen. If it wasn't for this board me and a lot of people would not be anywhere close to having our dreams close to reality. And if anyone gets offend they dont have to vistit. I haven't read any post that was or is offences. Not even a 4 letter word that I can recall.
Thanks John and everyone else that has answered my questions.
Kevin

jonsey/downunder · March 06, 2005, 06:36:15 AM

John.
My two cents worth, a bit slow in getting to it but it takes me a while to get my thoughts from brain to paper.
I would certainly be most disappointed to see the demise of this forum. I have been monitoring it from time to time over the last couple of years and only recently have felt able to contribute. In that time the ideas and advice have helped me with my own building project and I now feel it is time to give some of that help back. Even in this, I feel that I am gaining more than I give, in that I have found a whole bunch of new friends that are definitely worth their weight in gold.
I think that this friendship and camaraderie is what makes this forum so successful.
I know this is probably not exactly what you had in mind in setting up this discussion group, but that is the nature of the beast. I for one would like to congratulate you for the time and effort you have put into making this space available to us. To allow us to chew over our dreams and ideas and to hopefully succeed in them.

I think you are selling yourself short if you think your plans don't stack up well to others on the web. Indeed I have found none better in doing the job they where designed for. Your ideas and advice, I have also found to be sound.

I understand that you carry a heavy load with the time and money you have invested in this project. So maybe Glen's suggestion that you spread some of that load is a good idea. As for the financial side, I think we would all be prepared to assist by using the links provided and steering folks to your plans. Just as soon as I can convince my Daughter to return from the UK, I also will be after a set of your plans. The Victoria cottage I consider a little gem and hopefully I will get to build it someday.
As for the litigation issue, David's suggested disclaimer might be helpful. This is a new one for me so I can't be much help there.
Anyway, enough of this.
Thanks for your patience and perseverance with this forum.
jonesy.

Crikey John I just had a terrible thought, if we all buy one of your plans you could end up being a billionaire, and we all know how much you would hate that. You may even need to build a new house. If that ever happens, give me a call I know a guy that does really good plans at the right price.

keyholefarmhouse · March 06, 2005, 09:59:14 AM

I think setting up a new forum base is a great idea. I was curious how John was going to monitor or keep things focused on CP myself. Simplicity usually works in the end. I,also didn't realize the books were a part of the business end. I hope the new adaptions are easy to navigate.

March 06, 2005, 02:21:39 PM

I have agreed to help John monitor this forum so he has time to do the things he needs to do and we can continue on fairly unfettered. I want to thank all the posters as I have learned a lot from everyones input. Our comments can save someone days or weeks labor in seconds but should be viewed as advice or opinion of the poster only, that has to be weighed by the user. There are no guarantees if you lose money by following any advice presented.

Thanks again to everyone.

Glenn

Bellla · March 10, 2005, 02:37:26 AM

Great thread. I bought plans a few years ago and had great intentions of jumping right on a project. Unfortunately, as they say, life is what happened while we made other plans and we still have bare land with no structures. Our plans have changed several times and I've asked a bunch of questions on variations such as a shed with skids, a little house with a carport, etc. I have been thinking that too many "free consults" could lead to wearing out ones welcome and had considered asking if you did personal consulting on your plans. This thread seemed like a good place to get info regarding your private consulting as others may be wondering the same thing.

The plan for this summer (got to be careful of making plans!) is to take the bull by the horns and start a shed this year using the stock plans just to see if we can do it. I'll post progress (and take pictures) if we get started.

Thanks so much for all you have done.

Bellla

glenn kangiser · March 10, 2005, 03:04:47 AM

Feel free to ask any questions you want in the general forum and if you bought plans from John, he has a special forum set up for support of his plans. We are a free support group and the value of our support is limited to what you pay for it.

But normally we can find you an answer or at least a lot of good suggestions.