Cold joints in footing question

[brian_nj]

Well we just received our second set of plans today, this time a 20x30 1.5 story (previously got the two story) One of the problems I am encountering is with the foundation. I want a 5 block high foundation, this is easy. The problem is the footings for the 20'x30' cabin are 4.62963 Cubic yards of concrete. Not bad if you can get a truck even close, but the closest we can get a mix or pump truck is about 400' so it is hand mixing for us. 4.62963 cubic yards = 125.00 cubic feet and an 80 lb bag is about .60 cubic feet so it is 209 bags to be mixed. That is a lot to mix at 5 bags a time (42 loads to be exact). I can do that but not all in one day. This means I will have to have cold joints in the footings. I am thinking that the best way to do this is to form the footings into 8 parts and maybe add some extra rebar to the situation to add strength. The following pic is the order I am thinking I would pour the footings. Any suggestions or other ideas?

[Jochen]

I know that won't answer your question. But can't you substitute the poured foundation with a pressure treated wood foundation instead.

Jochen

[rwanders]

Looks like a workable plan------if you leave some small openings in the forms between the sections and place a few lengths of rebar to tie the sections together it should do well. Suggestion: you might be able to rent some motorized mud buggies and use them to transfer concrete the 400' from a truck to your site----they will hold at least 2 or 3 wheelbarrow loads and would be a lot less work then mixing 200+ bags yourself.

[brian_nj]

I have considered PT wood foundation and also piers, but the longevity of a block foundation is a lot higher and the solidness of it is also there. This cabin is being set up as a family trust to keep it in the family for generations so I am trying to make it as low cost for maintenance in the future as possible. I've owned one house on piers and personally did not care for it but then again it was in coastal NJ and the piers were about 10' tall so they swayed in high wind.

[John_C]

I would think those joints would shorten the life and compromise the rigidity of the full perimeter footing. Water will get in there and deteriorate the rebar.

I'd be inclined to use poured piers on concrete footings. It would last as long as the block foundation and be easier to build.

[John_C]

Another option would be to have two crews - two mixers. I'm thinking 2 -two man crews plus one guy doing gofer duties, troweling etc.   Start at the top of your drawing and work in opposite directions till you meet at the bottom center.  You will each be adding to fresh pours until you meet. Not a fun day, but doable.

[rwanders]

If you are really concerned about rusting rebar (which can be bad) you can always use epoxy coated rebar which is often spec'd for corrosive service. I was a certified civil inspector for years and never ran into much trouble in these kind of situations. Also, the stresses on foundations is almost exclusively compressive---foundations are primarily designed to spread structure weight loads across enough square inches to avoid failure of the subsoil under it.

[diyfrank]

Do you have a old pickup and a few strong young kids?  400' doesn't sound too far to work with.

[ScottA]

Glenn is the expert but I've been on lots of jobs that had footings poured in sections.

[harry51]

If you have plans to create a road/driveway to the building sometime in the future, maybe now is the time to do it. I don't know where you are located, but I wouldn't be happy with a 400' walk to the house in the rain/sleet/snow, etc.

Or, those towaway readymix buggies hold up to a yard, I'm pretty sure. Rent one
and shuttle from a readymix truck to the footings with a pickup?

Best,
H.

[Redoverfarm]

Looks like a workable plan------if you leave some small openings in the forms between the sections and place a few lengths of rebar to tie the sections together it should do well. Suggestion: you might be able to rent some motorized mud buggies and use them to transfer concrete the 400' from a truck to your site----they will hold at least 2 or 3 wheelbarrow loads and would be a lot less work then mixing 200+ bags yourself.

I agree with the buggy.  I really don't think you have thought out the hand mixing.  A lot of work and unless you get an extremely larger mixer you will only be able to mix 2-3 bags in a 1/3 yd mixer. Even if you had a large tractor with a bucket that you could use to shuttle the mix if you can't get a buggy.  Remember concrete is heavy when you talk about shuttling it in mixed form  

In regards to cold pours I would step the footers at the end of each days pour.  That way you would have a solid surface on which to pour your next days pour.  I would extend the re-bar at least 4 feet both in the lower step and above the step. Any break in your footing will be a weak spot in that footing.  But by stepping the footing you will be distributing that stress rather than directing it(straight verticle seam).  A friend of mine does poured concrete foundations and occassionally he will get caught with a truck load shortage and the end of the day and the company will not load out until the next day to complete the pour.  He most generally says he always pours slope step on which to add the next days delivery.  

[glenn kangiser]

I agree with Scott.  I've seen lots of commercial footings done in sections and even layers, pouring sections separate is common.  I doubt the rebar would rust in two but even then it will be part of a bigger block.  I don't see a problem which  ever way you go.  

Possibly not best practice but done successfully all of the time and many floors are cut to make them crack into about 15'x15' sections for control joints - the crack will follow the 1" deep cut - it's done every day out here.

Also consider what John is saying.

[brian_nj]

The 400' to the nearest flat is not our biggest problem it is the grade/elevation to get there. From the front of the property to where we are building is almost 300' of elivation change in 600' lots of tight switchbacks. To say it is a bit steep and rutted is an understatement. We are not planning a true road in to keep this cabin as low key as possible and to date the only truck that can make it in and out is my Cherokee with 6.5" of lift 35" mud tires front and rear air lockers and a low range kit. The two crew option is doable as there are a couple of us building at the same time so I have a lot of IOU's out there

I appreciate all the thought and will ponder my options while cutting the trees this weekend. Sometimes the most privacy is a PIA, but than again it wouldn't be a retreat if it was in the suburbs

[John_C]

Where in TN are you?  I'm in N GA not far from Chattanooga.

[brian_nj]

Where in TN are you?  I'm in N GA not far from Chattanooga.

Johnson city actually just south of it (north east corner) in the unincorporated area but I live full time in Rock Hill SC.

[John_C]

Not close to me in either location.  It's quite pretty up there around Johnson City. I did some whitewater kayaking thereabouts.

[MikeT]

I am chiming in late here, but how far is it from the site up to the place where the cement truck could get as the crow flies?  The reason is that on my building site that is downslope from the access point, I used gravity to my advantage all the time.  Moving materials downhill has never been that much of a problem because the site is sufficiently steep that gravity really plays a huge role.

What is the longest hose from a pump line? 

Just trying to save the dust and aches of throwing 60# or 80# bags into a mixer.

mt

[apaknad]

tri city areas in N.E. TN is on my list of places to build. someone told me about sneedville so i looked up the area. can you give me any pointers on what to look/look out for?

[brian_nj]

tri city areas in N.E. TN is on my list of places to build. someone told me about sneedville so i looked up the area. can you give me any pointers on what to look/look out for?

Biggest problem I have seen in almost 2 years is meth, there are a lot of addicts in some areas. It seems to be the drug of choice on the mountains. Also once you buy property be prepared to be the outsider for a while till the good old boys network has a chance to check you out. This makes it extreemly important to follow through on everything you say! Burn one person and you are done (at least where we are) cause they are all kin and they hold a grudge ask the guy up the road from me. But at the same time these guys can be your best asset when building. I helped a neighbor with his A/C just being neighborly and to say it has been payed back 10 times is an understatement even though I did not want or expect payback, but you cant beat $15 an hour for a D8 cat and operator.

In short it is a different world but one I wish I found many years ago.   

[glenn kangiser]

Sounds a lot like here.

[apaknad]

thank you brian, very good to know(meth scares me alot). i have a good heart and would not screw over anyone intentionally so i think i could build trust and i like helping people(especially in the building something category). glen i have some good info i want to share and please feel free to put this where ever you want(except in the trash). i am a blue collar type of person that lives on a pension and service related disability. not alot of money but i am doing better than some. my mom will not be here very much longer(a matter of days, she's 93 w/cancer and in hospice), and i was having a hard time keeping up w/my truck payment and everything involved w/helping a dying parent. so i talked to the creditor and over a couple of weeks and they called me today and said they were going to reduce my interest amount from 12.5% to 4% and my payment went from $540/mo. to $408/mo. for the life of the loan(couldn't believe they would do that, surely providence intervened). slowly i am climbing out of debt that i foolishly got myself into. paid off the tractor loan earlier this year($300/mo.) and also found auto ins. for $20 less than i had been paying for 2 years. i see the light at the end of the tunnel and i just want to say to the younger forumites DO NOT GO INTO DEBT IF YOU CAN HELP IT!!!!! it takes forever to pay these loans off. i guess it's not too early in my house to say Merry Christmas!

[glenn kangiser]

Good info, Dan.

Sassy renegotiates interest charges with card companies often. If she gets a cheaper offer she calls before transferring and often the existing company will drop the interest - if the first person can't handle it often their manager can.

[JRR]

If you dig the trench, place the rebar, elevation stakes, etc ... then hire a contractor to order and place the concrete, you will still be saving money over hiring the whole job out.   A concrete contractor can come up whatever team of workers is required, complete with Georgia Buggies (motorized or not) ... shovels, etc, etc..  You specify the concrete quality.  I personally like #3000-#3500 with a 4" slump ... the concrete yard dispatchers always complain a bit about having it so dry, but I insist and they usually comply.
.
Manual "Georgia Buggies": .http://www.industromart.com/concrete_carts.htm

[JRR]

Another way to divide the task of pouring ... is to pour in horizontal "layers", rather than sections.  Just another way to "skin the cat".   A layer of new concrete will knit pretty well to a lower layer if that lower layer is still "green".  Depending on the weater and exposure, concrete can be kept "green" for several hours ... perhaps days, but I wouldn't push it.  After the intial "set" (hardening) in an couple or hours or so, the curing process can be slowed by covering and/or keeping the surface wet with water.  Some folks sprinkle on a dusting of dry Portland cement, right onto the wet lower layer, to improve the bond of the layers ... I don't know if this really works or not, but I've done it just in hope.

[firefox]

One other thing will help it knit well is to make shure the surface is rough, not smooth. Take a piece of rebar and drag it on the surface making a grid
just after you finish each layer. Each line should be about a 1/4" deep.
Bruce