Re: Septic tank and cistern tank material, prices, install, all that stuff

[grover]

I was planning my cistern to be  plastic, or more specifically, polyethylene.  Talking to an older guy who might be doing the excavating for me he said I could use plastic if I want but if were him he would use concrete.

Also the septic tank...I think around here they are mostly concrete but plastic would be so much easier to work with weight wise.  The county sanitary engineer specified 1000 gallon septic and 150 ft of laterals but I don't think he specified what material it should be made from.  Before I go with plastic I will confirm what's required.

What are your thoughts on what material to use for each?

[mwhutch]

We just had our septic system installed, they put in a 1000 gallon concrete tank and 190 feet of lines. The man who installed it said he didn't have a preference for either plastic or concrete, but concrete was half as much(he said). For the lines it appeared that they used 4 inch black perforated pipe and surrounded it with shredded tire chips. He seemed to think that the tire chips would be less likely to compact if someone drove over them. It took them a long day with three men to install it, and they charged us $2400 for everything including a clean out. Hope this helps some.

[grover]

$2,400 sounds pretty cheap to me.  I think mines gonna cost about $5,000.

[flyingvan]

Concrete tanks are the way to go.  They won't float out of the ground, won't lose their baffle if the honey truck driver doesn't pump the sides equally, won't fail because someone drove over it.
Also----get infiltrators.  Much more absorption area and easier to install---plus you don't have to buy gravel. http://www.infiltratorsystems.com/
https://www.thenaturalhome.com/infiltrator.htm

[rick91351]

I have put in several septic systems and I would never go with a plastic tank.  I have seen a couple older ones collapse.  I have put in two infiltrator systems and they were really no brainers if you can keep the grade level.  Where we live now the freight charge for gravel or drain rock for a conventional drain field would be almost prohibitive.  So South West District Health okayed infiltrators and I really like them. 

[grover]

Sounds like concrete is the way to go.

How about the cistern?  I'm assuming plastic is ok there?  Does anyone know a good website that will walk me through the cistern install?

[rick91351]

Sounds like concrete is the way to go.

How about the cistern?  I'm assuming plastic is ok there?  Does anyone know a good website that will walk me through the cistern install?

With tanks or cisterns you get what you pay for.  Cheap tanks can be had but is it worth it?  You pay for the excavation or you do it by hand.  Then it collapses, then you redo.  My excavator friend and I went up to the neighbors and just dug up a collapsed bargain brand.  It collapsed near the outlet.  Last year or so there were two more on Craigslist in Boise with the same defect some excavator was peddling.  They would have worked on a ranch fire fighting trailer hooked to a fire pump or an above ground non potable water tank application like we use in the orchard.       

We use a Norwesco 600 gallon from a spring.  Not a huge producer like a half gallon a minute.  We over flow it with a path of least resistance.  The spring fills the tank then backs up in to the over flow and wastes via a black ply pipe several feet away.       

http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=N-41328

For a buried rain cistern or you fill type I really like the type Mt Don used.   

http://www.tank-depot.com/productdetails.aspx?part=N-40856 

[Squirl]

Buried cistern?

Concrete.  Same as the septic tank.  Most people can use the same tanks as the septic.  All the concrete companies around me have them expandable to stack on top of each other to increase capacity. 

1. Cheaper per gallon.  They are already mass produced for septic.  The last I checked around me a delivered 1000 gallon concrete tank was $650 dropped in the hole.  Locally a 1000 gallon certified burial plastic cistern was $1200 without delivery.

2. Stronger.  How often do you hear about concrete septic tanks collapsing vs. plastic tanks?

3.  Concrete is less likely to float.  What flyingvan said.  Unlike a septic tank, cisterns often get drained (not full).  If the ground water table rises or you get a good soaking, the tank can 'float'.  Not usually pop out of the ground float, but move enough to damage the pipe connections.  My last building inspector wouldn't approve plastic septic tanks because he saw too many do this.

If you are handy with concrete you could build your own, but it is a lot of work to save $200-$300.  If you have to call back the excavator for a second day, the savings are erased. The last I checked the plastic tanks still weigh 300 lbs.

[rick91351]

I agree with Squirl however the reason we went with plastic was the need for a more light weight and space conscious application.  We hung it just off an old logging road on a hillside.  Second I read the engineering on this product and felt it was going to last a long time.  Some products do not even make the engineering available for request.  Mt Don's design - the up side down light bulb is very stable and not so apt to rise when empty. 

[flyingvan]

    For the record, my infiltrator chambers were very easy to install.  You just get the trench level.  THe chambers look like some heavy space aged equipment but they are just long plastic domes, real easy to move around and truck into place.  They are four foot sections.  The cap ends and the sections themselves have knockouts to stick 2" pipe into.  They are an overflow type system----when the top run saturates, effluent goes up and over into the next chamber.  I have 5 rows and installed buried view ports (just a short pipe with a threaded cap) at the end of each run, just so I could see what it's doing.  After a year of use only the top chamber (run) was wet.   The other chambers haven't silted at all and appeared dry even after rainfall.
    The folks at County of San Diego Dept. of Environmental Health Septic Division claim the Cadillac system for onsite wastewater is a concrete tank with infiltrator field.   My only fear is longevity----what will this system do in 30 years?  Everyone I've asked in the industry claims these will outlast the perforated pipe systems.   We'll see.

[grover]

OK, this is what I have found out this morning from a guy that does this kind of work (Bought the land from him).  He is too busy now but he gave me some other names.
He said go with a 1000 gallon concrete septic tank and a 1500-1600 gallon concrete cistern.  The septic tank will be about $950 and the cistern will be about $1500.  As far as a submersible pump he likes to use an F & W (Flint & Walling) 1/2 horse which is about $380.

How does that all sound so far?

[Squirl]

    For the record, my infiltrator chambers were very easy to install.  You just get the trench level.  THe chambers look like some heavy space aged equipment but they are just long plastic domes, real easy to move around and truck into place.  They are four foot sections.  The cap ends and the sections themselves have knockouts to stick 2" pipe into.  They are an overflow type system----when the top run saturates, effluent goes up and over into the next chamber.  I have 5 rows and installed buried view ports (just a short pipe with a threaded cap) at the end of each run, just so I could see what it's doing.  After a year of use only the top chamber (run) was wet.   The other chambers haven't silted at all and appeared dry even after rainfall.
    The folks at County of San Diego Dept. of Environmental Health Septic Division claim the Cadillac system for onsite wastewater is a concrete tank with infiltrator field.   My only fear is longevity----what will this system do in 30 years?  Everyone I've asked in the industry claims these will outlast the perforated pipe systems.   We'll see.

I've read of this type of installation, and there is nothing in the manufacturer's literature to contradict it.  When I spoke with the septic engineer and the building inspector, they didn't approve of this in practice.  They told me it dumps all the effluent at the front of the chamber and the first chamber only.  It doesn't utilize the soil capability of the full system.  It can lead to saturation of the section of the soil with oils and effluent faster than the soil can dispense of it, leading to earlier failure.  I was told that I needed a distribution box and to run a perforated pipe through the knockouts the full length of the line so that it would evenly distribute across the full system.  This way the soil can better handle the bacterial processing of the effluent.

I was also told the infiltrators are superior.   I need them.  I have horrible soil.

Grover,

I don't know your local prices.  It sounds a few dollars more than here, but not crazy.  Those prices are "in hole" right?

What is the pump for?

[flyingvan]

     @ Squirl----That was exactly my fear, and I quizzed the people at County and Teal Supply (where I bought the infiltrators).  They both said essentially the same thing---the first chamber will  handle everything just fine until there's a surge, then it'll dump to the next.  Even so I hedged my bet---San Diego County requires 100% reserve for a future leach field.  So yu start your runs at the bottom of the property and work your way up until you have the necessary length---this left me with just 10' (two sections and the caps), closest to the house.  I went ahead and ran that trench the entire width of the property, extending into the reserve area---which the County was fine with.  I didn't want that 10' forever saturated then dumping to the next chamber.  It's now 90' run. 
     I doubt I'll ever have a problem, though.  It's really good soil, in a moderate slope that faces due south, with 375' of field (Infiltrator literature claims you only needs half the length compared to perforated pipe but County sees it differently---they require the same length regardless) on a one bedroom home.   Across the street is my main residence.  It has 200' perforated pipe in the shade of the house with three kids that I'm convinced fall asleep in the shower, and so far no problems with that system either---it was installed in 1980.

[grover]

Squirl,
The pump was for the cistern. 
I think he quoted me a little high on the septic and cistern price, for instance I called about the 1000 gallon septic and it is $650 plus a $113 delivery so close to $800 in the ground.  The $1600 gallon cistern is $1250 plus the same delivery fees so about $1400 on that.

Help me make sense of these prices.
Septic tank $800
Infiltrator sections 38 x $33=$1254
Other assorted pieces $500 (I may be a little high there)

That adds up to $2554.  At $5000 does that mean my backhoe guy is making $2500, approximately?  And that is just for the septic installation.   

[Rob_O]

That adds up to $2554.  At $5000 does that mean my backhoe guy is making $2500, approximately?  And that is just for the septic installation.

That's one way to look at it. Another way would be to figure the cost of equipment rental, plus the value of your time it will take you to do the job and decide it it's worth it for you to do it yourself

[Squirl]

Most cisterns are only 2-3 feet down.  Unless you are putting it at the bottom of a hill and pumping the water to the top, you probably don't need a submersible.  At most you are probably pumping it up 10 feet.  With the fact that water conservation will be important, your flow rate will probably be low.  Most people I know of simply have a shallow well jet pump.  Cheap and easy from the local big box stores.  All the ones on HD's website have favorable ratings.  From a quick glance, the F&W one is controlled by float switch and not a pressure switch.  Maybe I have the wrong one.  It is listed for $220 from sears.
http://www.sears.com/flint-walling-submersible-sump-pump-1-2inch-hp/p-SPM6275447804P?PDP_REDIRECT=false


The additional $2500 is for equipment costs, insurance, wages, taxes, time, interest on loans, down time when not in use, and experience.  It adds up.


Flyingvan,  I saw your site and build.  It didn't look like you would have even had a lot other alternatives.  Code in NY gives a 25% credit in field size for infiltrators.  From your description, one line might be more than enough.

[grover]

I checked my requirement details and it specifies a curtain drain around 3 sides.  I would think that will push the cost up quite a bit.  Oh well, got to get some guys up to the property and get some estimates.

[grover]

Just thought I'd follow up.  We had a 1000 gallon concrete septic tank installed and two 75 foot laterals of the infiltrator baffles.  A curtain drain was needed too.  The county sanitation engineer came out and inspected it and gave it his approval.

Also the same day they buried a  1600 gallon concrete cistern.  As of now nothing else has been done to the cistern.  I've got to find a good site that will explain all the steps I have to do to complete the plumbing and the wiring.  One site I just read said the inside of the cistern needs a good scrubbing with bleach before filling.  That would be a chore.  Especially the rinsing.  I hope that was overkill and really not a necessity.

Any websites you can let me know about would be appreciated.  Thanks.

[hpinson]

The bleach is to sterilize the tank, at least to some extent.  An alternative to scrubbing with bleach is to fill the tank with water, pour a recommended amount of bleach or calcium hypochlorite tablets in for the gallons you are treating, let it sit for the recommended time (at least a day), and drain/ pump out.  Not as effective as a scrubdown of the walls with raw bleach, but much less toxic to do and better than nothing.  You may have to repeat this every so often or not depending what is in your water in terms of coliform and other bacterial contamination.  The only way you would know is to do regular testing. It might just be regular maintenance -- a friend of mine who knows says once contaminated with something like e. coli, it will always come back.

Here is a good writeup:

http://www.waterandhealth.org/newsletter/private_wells.html