Help with Foundation type and home location - NY

[Net_Eng]

This is my first post in this forum.

So, I just purchased 5 acres of land for recreation and to build my retirement home. This is upstate NY.

I have about 4.25 acres of open land and .75 of woods at the rear. I also have 300 Ft of road frontage.

I will like to know where is the best place to have the house...your recommendation.

I will also like to know what are your suggestion for foundation type. I was thinking Basement for the house, slab for the garage and 4 post over the ground for the shed.

I will probably build the shed first so I can have somewhere to hangout while I am there.

Suggest away...

Thanks for reading.

[Redoverfarm]

 

There are several deciding factors which could dictate the location.  

Will there be city water or are you going to drill a well.  If a well I would determine that location first.

Secondly the septic.  There are distances that it has to be from the well in most state/counties.  Staying within those distances will the ground perk away from your primary house site (1st pick) or will it incorporate part of your house site to accomidate those restrictions/perkability.  

Personally I like a basement if you can make it water tight with proper foundation system.  You never stated whether the land is level, rolling, steep.   This too comes into factor with the septic and foundation.  Will it be a walk-out or completely submerged basement.

A slab will be fine for the garage.  Again depending on your needs/use of the garage will it be heated to work during the winter months.  If so you might consider radiant floor heat.  Not that you have to completely install it but if you ran the flooring tube and stubbed off you can always add a boiler system later.  Is this going to be a one/two car garage.  think floor drains.  Being in a north east state you will probably get some snow fall. So the reason I said drains which are relatively inexpensive you could put one mid center of each bay tied together.  When the snow/ice melts it will run under the car rather than where you step gettting in/out to a room centered drain.

I guess when you say 4 pole shed you are referring to a skid shed.  That will be fine if you plan on moving at a later date.  I would probably build it on either block or concrete piers if it will be permanently located. You never mentioned what size shed so the foundation type might be dictated by that.

Another couple factors for consideration would be set-backs from adjoining property boundry and driveway location.

Just some things to think about.

[Net_Eng]

The only thing the city has there is electric and telecom and I will probably not use those. I am thinking to have solar power for electric.

I will have to get both a septic and a well dug. I am not sure how far apart they should be. I also have to take into consideration that my neighbors can have theirs anywhere, including right next to me.

I think the I will probably get one of those compost toilet for now and have both the foundation for the house and the septic put in about the same time.

The land is fairly level excepting the- looking at the map- the lower right is a about 1 degree higher and it level off at the three corners.

There is a lot of snow/rain up there so yes, everything has to be drainable - if thats a word.

I like the basement idea too but I may have to take a contractor to get it done. Not unless you guys can walk me through the process.

The garage should be able to accommodate 2 suv and a mini workshop.

The shed is the technical and The main guy in this picture now. Well, temporarily at least.

I was actually referring to the concrete piers but I couldn't remember the name at that time.

This will be the first thing I want to build. I want it to be something like a 1.5 bedroom.

The current use of the shed will be home while the house is under construction. It should not be too big nor too small. I should also be able drive a ATV in the living room when I am not there.
Long term, this will be a guest house or a storage facility or a man cave.

All these purchases and project are all CASH and I don't have any since I just paid for the land. I know, right, and to make it worst, this is only a weekend project.

The area is the great. It's next to two state Forrest and the finger lakes. It's also 4.5 hrs from NYC or Canada

Deciding where the house, garage and shed goes will also assist me in deciding where I will want to plant trees and my wife's much anticipated garden is going to be.

My goal is to have the shed done by next winter and start saving for the basement/foundation/septic project. Over all, the next three years, everything should be done.

Thanks again for your help

[speedfunk]

I am almost 100% that well and septic in NY have to be 200ft apart from each other.  Preferably drinking water uphill lol.

Welcome to upstate ny.

[Squirl]

Place septic first.  Almost every locality (I'm a county or two east) requires a perc test and a septic site plan by a septic engineer before any building permit  for a house is considered.  It is best to do this first because it is the hardest thing to place.  If you build a garage or shed over the only area with approved soil you just made yourself an unbuildable lot.  Plan your homesite and well around that.

Here is a link to all set backs and requirements to the NY health department codes for septic.
http://www.health.ny.gov/regulations/nycrr/title_10/part_75/appendix_75-a.htm

You are 100% correct speedfunk.
(a) When wastewater treatment systems are located upgrade and in the direct path of surface water drainage to a well, the closest part of the treatment system shall be at least 200 feet away from the well.

Get yours done first and then your neighbors have to worry about yours not the other way around.  There should be diagrams with your local building department.
I have seen debates on whether a well or homesite would be the next step.  Some say a home is harder to place and the well is more of  a question of depth.
Oh yeah.   to upstate NY.

[Net_Eng]

And here comes the neighborhood.

The best advice are from the locals. Thanks guys. City people always think differently.

The circle on the map is where the perc test was done.

[Net_Eng]

Are there any cheap but good contractor upthere for the septic project?

Do you think I can handle the septic project myself?

[Net_Eng]

With 300 ft in front and 215 at the back, what is the largest house I can have on there and still be comfortable to have a driveway, and lots of yard space for the wife flower garden around the house?

We are also debating whether we should start with the house or just have a cabin/small house for now while we build the house. what is you guys take on that

[rick91351]

I am like Squirl always septic first.  With your well and sewer set backs, you also have to take into account your neighbors well to your septic, and their well to your septic.  As well as your own well and septic relationship to each other.  Here in my area there is a state department called District Health and I have found they are great at helping you locate all that.  I have found the worst problem is getting your perk test done.  Sometimes things under the ground just do not want to cooperate very well.  i.e. high water tables, or soil that just will not drain are a couple of things.

Where we live we can put in your own septic system.  If you do you have to do it yourself, and expect to get a stricter inspection.   I have put in two septic systems they are easily done if you have experience with backhoes and can handle inspectors.  I would certainly get a couple bids and then compare that to what I could do it myself at.  That said it can get pretty expensive learning backhoe 101 with a backhoe from the rental center with the meter running while shooting grade, and doing hand work with a shovel.

With 300 ft in front and 215 at the back, what is the largest house I can have on there and still be comfortable to have a driveway, and lots of yard space for the wife flower garden around the house?

We are also debating whether we should start with the house or just have a cabin/small house for now while we build the house. what is you guys take on that

That is a tough question or questions.  Just how much do you want to spend?  We are going to build a retirement home this next year if it all goes correctly.  We certainly would like to have a small builders cottage.  In fact that was one reason I found John's web site CountryPlans.com.  However the builders cottage sort of went under the bus when I/we decided we could not afford dumping money into that and then into a house as well.  A travel trailer or fifth wheel trailer might very well serve the purpose very well.  We own a old and I stress old fifth wheel trailer now and use it for a cabin in the summers on our property.  Late fall or first snow we bring it out.  We certainly want to up grade to a newer model.  We also then could certainly winterize the house and head off to where-ever all those snowbirds as we call them around here go.  (Arizona, New Mexico, Mexico.)  They always seem to return tanned and lookin' good.    

As far as yard and flower gardens that certainly is up to the individual.  In the mountain area we are going to build at they serve as a fire brake as well as beautification.  I certainly would not put in more lawn than I could mow in a timely manor.  I think I would just get some graph paper and start plotting.        

   

[glenn kangiser]

Welcome to the forum.  I think the others have covered a lot of the major issues.

Depending on how it is placed I think you could have as much house as you want.

Just my 2 cents, I like to be back as far away from anybody as I can get.  Houses sitting next to the road don't make a bit of sense to me.

Looking again at your lot though, it is pretty deep so there would be plenty of room for a back yard even if you were somewhere midway back.

[Net_Eng]

Thank you guys and thanks to John for this website.

Now that those are out of the way, here are my new questions/issues

The biggest confusion is that I have between crawlspace, basement and piers is the sublayer floor.

Sure a basement is the ideal solution since there are more square footage and can be used for storage but to me it's the safest solution to my fear

I fear that without a basement or a crawlspace the sublayer is exposed to the elements and it will bring in cold air, and will decompose faster etc.

The crawl space solves these with a vapor barrier but if considering a crawlspace, why not consider a basement? A basemen is basically a deeper crawlspace. It is designed the same except for deeper walls.

So, I am considering a 30x40 to get three bedrooms. What do you guys think? Is that possible? There should be 1 master bedroom with a master bath and two kids size rooms. The kids will basically have twin size beds attached to the wall. There will be a second bathroom, a kitchen, great room and a fireplace if I decided to.

If I do get a basement, I am thinking to finish the subfloor and cover it with plastic. It might have to be like that for a year or so until I can save enough for framing and a roof. In the mean time I can probably live out of the basement. Well, not full time living, just weekends.

I know basements are normally all the way down but if i decided to get one, I will like to have it half and half for larger windows and to walk out.

If I get time today, I will call the town to find out whether I can build before a septic and well since a percent test was already done.

Glenn, I know exactly what you are talking about. I don't like road side houses either. It's dangerous and it looks like city etc.

Rick91351, you are absolutely right about the additional expense. I am also considering having one of those metal shed and have a tent to camp in.

[Squirl]

Basements are another option but they do have their drawbacks.  First they require you to go deeper this adds more materials to the cost of the building.  Also they require a full excavation.   This requires a lot more work and cost.  Also the deeper you go, there is more weight of the earth pressing against the walls with no counter pressure on the other side.  So the walls have to be thicker with more rebar adding more to the cost.  I believe there are guidelines in the code, but I can't find them. Also in NY I believe they are required to be insulated.   This means more rigid foam insulation which is expensive.  I believe that would be required for both the floor of the basement and the walls.  Plus the cost of a poured concrete floor.  I believe additionally by code you have to waterproof coat the walls or you can still have the same moisture and humidity issues in a basement.  I do in mine.  So while they can add to the square footage, it can be cheaper and easier to build up or out than down.  All other options have drawbacks too. It is for you to decide what is best for you.

The "I believe" sections of the paragraph were from a cursory reading of the building code and county guidelines. I gave up on the option at the point of much more work and cost in the beginning part.

[Net_Eng]

What will be the best foundation type which is both cost effective and has less drawback?

I have a open plot, I don't need to excavate.

If I were to choose pier foundation, how can I protect my sub floor?

[glenn kangiser]

Prevent uphill water and roof runoff from running under your house by proper significant grading away from the house, and ditching uphill as necessary.  

[MountainDon]

If you have to follow the procedures prescribed in the NYS building codes you most likely will find it expedient to use a full perimeter foundation for a crawl space and not to try for pier and beam. Pier and beam would most likely need an engineers stamp to be approved for a build under code jurisdiction. None of the building codes make mention of pier and beam house foundations to my knowledge. It could be possible to do a raised floor type using beams supported on block piers, but even that would most likely call for a full perimeter footing with rebar, rebar tie ins to the columns, etc.

Check locally to be sure what is permitted or wanted before getting too deep into the planning process. Of course if the are no building codes present then you are the decision maker. It never hurts to base structural on code as code is minimal practice.

[Squirl]

I agree with Don on the reading of the code.  I did not see any specific mention of post and pier foundations.  IIRC, there is a mention of them for center beams, but I can't remember the specific code off the top of my head.  I have seen some approved, but the code officer was probably already familiar with them.  Maybe they had a stamp.  Drive around and see what others are currently doing and call the local building department and ask.  If they were not, I don't think there is any specific provision in the code to point to.  
The NY ICC Code on foundations can be found here:
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/st/b400v07/st_ny_st_b400v07_4_section.htm

There is a requirement that all foundations with habitable space (basement) require damp proofing.

Upon further reading there are provisions for wood posts in foundations and permanent wood foundations with the language "shall be designed and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code"  I wonder if any of that language could be used to support an argument for post and pier?

Other types are ICF's, FPSF, and permanent wood foundations.  All types have their own costs, benefits, and uses.

[cabinfever]

When I did my place, I let the septic and well dictate the location of the house. "Where would you like it?" the environmental engineer asked. "Wherever it is going to be cheapest" was my response. He and the excavator had some excellent advice on where best to put it and the cabin - they knew the area and the terrain a lot better than I did.

I compromised between basement and pier by going crawlspace with a ratslab. Dry, sealed, good for resale, adequate for storage, and about 25% cheaper than a basement.

I also considered solar, but it can get expensive. In the end, it was a whole lot cheaper to tie into the grid. I'd put panel in after I'm done and do net metering to offset the cost.

[Don_P]

I agree with Don on the reading of the code.  I did not see any specific mention of post and pier foundations.  IIRC, there is a mention of them for center beams, but I can't remember the specific code off the top of my head.  I have seen some approved, but the code officer was probably already familiar with them.  Maybe they had a stamp.  Drive around and see what others are currently doing and call the local building department and ask.  If they were not, I don't think there is any specific provision in the code to point to.  
The NY ICC Code on foundations can be found here:
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/st/b400v07/st_ny_st_b400v07_4_section.htm

There is a requirement that all foundations with habitable space (basement) require damp proofing.

Upon further reading there are provisions for wood posts in foundations and permanent wood foundations with the language "shall be designed and installed in accordance with the provisions of this code"  I wonder if any of that language could be used to support an argument for post and pier?

Other types are ICF's, FPSF, and permanent wood foundations.  All types have their own costs, benefits, and uses.

The reason the prescriptive code defaults to continuous footings and full perimeter foundation walls is that they can deliver lateral (wind, seismic) loads to the ground safely. The hose is pushing sideways on the foundation and the  foundation is braced by the panels that make up the walls, whether they are poured, block, ICF or treated wood walls. So the argument cannot be made from that standpoint that a pier and beam foundation is in that same group. It requires bracing either from the soil, enter geotech engineer, or from some form of knee bracing, structural engineer.

If the site is good for a daylight basement I think they are a good value. I've mentioned them before, Superior Walls make a pretty nice basement or wall for that matter, already waterproofed, insulated and studded out. They can have windows and door openings cast in. The footing is a gravel trench, much like a permanent wood foundation. The slab is poured after the panels are craned into place. I've done 2 with insulation under the slab and radiant heat in the pour. Attic trusses on top and the upper floor is done.

[Net_Eng]

After a little research, I figured that a basement might be a little too expensive at this time.

I called the code enforcement office and got the following answered.

1. Pier and beam foundation are allowed.
2. Whatever the foundation, it needs to be 48" deep to pass the frost barrier and at least 8" thick for concrete
3. If Pier and Beam is used without pressure treated wood, it needs to be at least 18" above ground.
4. Piers are recommended to be at least 8' to 10' apart

Now that you guys helped me figured that out, how do I calculate the size of the house?

I have seen ppl with 16.5' house, why didn't they do 15' or 20'?

PS. I am really happy I found this site with lots of great help in it...Thanks guys

[John Raabe]

When you do a pier foundation you can put down a vapor barrier over the soil and skirt the outside to have the same critter and moisture control you would have with a crawlspace. (It is harder to emulate a sealed crawlspace.)

The insulation is between the joists and an air barrier will be on the bottom of the joists so the floor is insulated. You can vary the house width but in my plans they are even (ie: 20'). With this you can get 20' long material and cut them to size to match 20' with the rim joists. (You want to cut your standard length stock rather than rely on every board being cut just right at the mill.)

[Squirl]

Weird, the charts seem to say you can get away with 6" poured foundation walls. Maybe they have a greater restriction in your area.
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_4_sec004_par001.htm
I could see 8" for a pier, but it seems a little extra than needed for a crawl space, but I'm not your code department.

Also the 8-10 ft is Minimum not Maximum?  Spacing that far is difficult to do with dimensional lumber for the beams to pass code.  More piers means more places for the load to be carried, I can't imagine why they would suggest less.

[Net_Eng]

Sorry, that was my mistake. IT IS, 8' maximum.

The thickness for the concrete is a recommendation.

[Squirl]

Thanks.  That sound about right and my understanding of the code and what I have seen other build.  From the same NY code guide I frequently link to here is the span sizing chart for beams and headers:
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/st/b400v07/st_ny_st_b400v07_5_sec002_par013.htm
Most of upstate NY has a snow load requirement of 40-50 lbs. The 50lb column would be on the safe side.  IIRC 70 lbs for Adirondacks.

I try not to rationalize or comprehend why some buildings I see are built how they are.  Many of the houses here are built with areas that are divisible by 4, 8, 10, or 12 because most dimensional lumber fits that, so as not to waste as much materials ($$$)

[Net_Eng]

What do you guys think about building this house plan?
http://www.houseplans.com/930-square-feet-2-bedroom-1-bathroom-Contemporary-House-Plans-1-garage-(32966)

[MountainDon]

Lots of windows takes it out of the realm of knocking together some sticks and calling it done. I think I see a reflection of an engineer in one of the windows.