We're the big 3. We don't need to compete...

[Bishopknight]

[Jochen]

  I'll like it. And is 100% true

Jochen

[Sonoran]

I learned that the gov't was considering putting a quota on Japanese cars because they realized that not enough people were buying American cars.  The president of Toyota and the Japanese prime minister got on a jet and flew over to talk to the President about it. 

Trade is tricky because if you put a quota, tarriff, or an embargo on another country they can do the same thing to you.

At the end of the meeting, the agreement was that the Japan would raise the sale price of their cars between $2000-5000.

Even with that price increase, their cars are still cheaper and better.  But that's okay because GM janitors should make $30/hr and get full benefits.

[apaknad]

wicked, wicked satire BK.

[MountainDon]

I learned that the gov't was considering putting a quota on Japanese cars...

I can't find any recent news about this...    Where did that come from?

[NM_Shooter]

I'm pretty p.o.'d about this bailout.

If I can help it, I will never buy another Ford, GM, Chrysler product. 

-f-

(Currently an owner of one F250, one 4-Runner, one Hyundai)

[John_C]

considering putting a quota on Japanese cars

They will have a hard time determining what's Japanese.  Is the Toyota or Honda made in (say) Ohio a Japanese car?  What about the Chevy Avio made in Korea, is that an American car.  Where does Mazda fit in?.... Ford has a big stake in it.  Only Japanese cars? Not Korean? or assembled in Canada like my last Ford truck?

Good Luck with that. 

[Jochen]

I learned that the gov't was considering putting a quota on Japanese cars...

I can't find any recent news about this...    Where did that come from?

Maybe the American car industry should try to built a better product in the first place. We bought a new Dodge Journey in March 2008 as a daily driver.  Traded it already in for a new Hyundai Entourage in October 2008.

Jochen

[Sonoran]

I learned that the gov't was considering putting a quota on Japanese cars...

I can't find any recent news about this...    Where did that come from?

I heard this from my econ teacher.  It's not very recent.  I remember him mentioning a date...2004 comes to mind but I'm not sure.

Regardless of when, it's pretty crazy to think that they raised prices to avoid a quota and the Big 3 still can't compete.

The lesson was on trade, so he used this as an example.

[Sonoran]

considering putting a quota on Japanese cars

They will have a hard time determining what's Japanese.  Is the Toyota or Honda made in (say) Ohio a Japanese car?  What about the Chevy Avio made in Korea, is that an American car.  Where does Mazda fit in?.... Ford has a big stake in it.  Only Japanese cars? Not Korean? or assembled in Canada like my last Ford truck?

Good Luck with that. 

If I am an American carmaker and I design a car, everytime one of my cars sell I receive a percentage of the profit.  If I have my cars made in Japan and sell them to Japanese people, the car is still my car. 

I wonder, in the cituation of cars...is it cheaper for the Japanese to have Americans build their cars versus building them in another country and shipping them to the U.S.?  I imagine that most car companies would build cars close to where they are selling them in order to save money.

I see what you are saying...it's not like it is a trade issue because the Japanese aren't shipping cars to the U.S.. They are building them in the U.S.  I wish I knew more about the cituation. It seems like the Japanese can determine the sale price, regardless of whether or not the build cars in their country and ship them over, or just build them here.

[John_C]

Sonoran,
You are viewing the car as an item. It's not... It's thousands of items, perhaps built in a half dozen or more countries, sub assemblies and major assembly possibly done in different countries as well.

Water pumps and ignition parts produced in country A, with steel made in country B, assembled into an engine in country C , dropped into a chassis in country D.  The issue of "domestic content" has been addressed in typical politico fashion for a long time. 

[Sonoran]

Yeah, you are right. 

But in the end, as a complete product, Japanese cars are owning USA cars.  In an attempt to close the Gap, according to my econ teacher, our gov't was considering putting a limit on the amount of Japanese cars that were being sold in the U.S.

The Japanese raised the sell price and they are still outselling the U.S. cars.

I guess I got off on tangents...but in the end I still feel like it depends on the people in control when it comes down to whose is whats. 

It's still a Japanese car even if they have parts produced at point A,B,C, and D...right?

[John_C]

It's still a Japanese car even if they have parts produced at point A,B,C, and D...right?

That's a definition they've been wrestling with for a long time.

In the end they will figure something out, and quickly, after all they're smart folks. Then, given time, equally smart folks will figure out the loopholes in the new laws and exploit them.  So if designing it here makes it non Japanese then the cars will be designed here and built wherever.  And so on..

The domestic brands have three major problems.

1. They are saddled with union contracts and obligations that make it impossible to build a price competitive vehicle. 

2. They aren't building what people want, but right now no one knows the next automotive paradigm.  Smaller? How much smaller? Hybrids? Electric? Hydrogen?   It's expensive to develop these concepts only to see them met by a marketplace yawn.

3. The perception, real or not, is that they produce a lower quality product.  Normally a manufacturer would have to produce a product of equal or better quality and bring it to market at a more favorable price..... over time consumer confidence would be restored.  Hyundai did exactly that.  Ten years ago their cars were poorly built. They hired Toyota to revamp their QC and sold their cars a few dollars cheaper and with a 100,000 mile warranty.  Recently they placed above Mercedes and BMW in J.C Powers initial quality satisfaction surveys..... job well done Hyundai. Item #1 makes that a tough nut to crack for the foundering three.

Where is Peternap when we need popcorn.

[peternap]

I have the popcorn John..

I'm not happy about the bailout either, even though it hasn't happened yet.

I see a lot of problems in this country that just mirror the problems in the auto industry. The biggest problem I see is that we don't really make anything worth a darn in this country anymore. We have become a nation of white collar managers. I talked to Larry Kidd last evening on the phone. Among the other challenges he has is the ubolts that hold his dump body on the frame of his dump truck...broke. He can't afford to buy new ones.

I walked him through making a forge with a brake drum and a vacuum cleaner, and told him what was made out of 5160 steel and how to draw temper them after he finished. He's a very inventive fellow and he now knows how to make something else. That's a lesson a LOT OF US SHOULD LEARN.

The next problem is of course, the Government! Those hand forged u bolts won't pass inspection if they are spotted. More government interference. Look at what it takes to make engines (large and small) meet pollution standards. Those of you that use chainsaws...do you know why you have to retune a chainsaw to get any life out of it at all. It's because the manufacturers have to set them so lean. They pass the EPA but will burn up in short order.
Same thing with American cars.

UNIONS....Unions were necessary at one point in this country. Google the Redneck War and read up on the battle of blair mountain. The unions were needed then....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain, but like all things, became corrupt and too big. Now they are just strangling themselves.

Big management..........It speaks for itself.

My feeling is that we need to let nature take it's course.....let em go under and start fresh. Won't happen though!

[John_C]

I walked him through making a forge with a brake drum and a vacuum cleaner,

When I built boats one of the fun jobs was to cast the lead keels.  Rigged an old cast iron bath tub with a spout.  Drilled a bunch of 1/2" holes in a length of large iron pipe and connected it to the exhaust of a commercial vacuum cleaner.  Braced the tub over the pipe, shoveled coal, not charcoal, on top of the pipe. When it got going we started the vacuum.  With a really hot fire you could keep adding lead and pouring and avoid any cold joints.  We did one 8,000 lb keel in mid summer in Key Largo, FL.  Had to wear heavy clothes, face masks etc in case of spatters. We were using scrap lead so just a drop of water inside an old cable casing would be a problem. Those were the days.... glad they are behind me.

[MountainDon]

...is it cheaper for the Japanese to have Americans build their cars versus building them in another country and shipping them to the U.S.? 

I believe that the original impetus for the Japanese to build factories in the USA was an idea fostered by the UAW. They wanted higher tariffs on the imported Japanese cars (to protect their jobs). Some one came up with the idea of giving the Japanese a break on the tariffs if they would build US plants. UAW thought that the Japanese would never do that; too expensive, and so on. Well, they fooled the UAW. Not only did they build plants, 33 wholly owned by the Japanese, at last count as far as I know, the UAW has never succeeded in unionizing any of those 33.

Toyota has exported some US made models to the middle east. At the beginning of the year they also China.

The last plant Honda opened in Indiana had 33000 applicants for the 900 jobs.

[John_C]

the UAW has never succeeded in unionizing any of those 33

Repeat after me. The problem is not the union, the problem is not the union, ommm  is it working?

Didn't think so.

[sparks]

I was wondering when this topic pic would end up at CP.

It nearly implies everything made in this country is crap.

Where were you made ?

Think about that.


sparks

[Jochen]

.......

Where were you made ?

Think about that.


sparks

Sorry you asked. So here is my answer. Not in the U.S. and when George W. Bush got elected, I sold our 20 acres in Montana and moved north.

Jochen

[Sonoran]

I was wondering when this topic pic would end up at CP.

It nearly implies everything made in this country is crap.

Where were you made ?

Think about that.

Ouch Sparks...

In general...the things that we strive for as Americans reflect the way we are raised and what we are exposed to.  The American Dream is typically classified as a nice, cozy house...look a little deeper and you realize that the only way to achieve that is to earn money...and it doesn't matter how you do it, it's for your dream.

[John_C]

implies everything made in this country is crap

I, for one, don't mean to imply that although it is the perception.  Several years ago Chevy sold Toyota Corolla's re-badged as Chevy Nova's.  The cars came off the same assembly line, used the same parts etc., only the badging was different.  The Nova was rated by it's owners as one of the least reliable new cars while the Corolla was the rated by it's owners as the most reliable.

That's a tough image problem for GM to deal with.  I've got my own bone to pick with them.  I had a '95 Saturn that I bought new.  Great car. It had nearly 250,000 miles on it when a tree fell on it last spring.  But a couple years ago GM pulled the service books from the local Chevy dealership and told them they could no longer do any work of any kind on Saturn's.  Ford's, Toyota's, Honda's et. al. they could work on, but not Saturn.  At the same time they were integrating Saturn back into the GM brand, reducing the autonomy that made Saturn different. It would share platforms with Saab and other GM brands..... in short be the same as the others.  So in spite of the fact that I was a happy owner for 13 years it will be a snowy day in Hades before I buy another.

I've owned Ford's, a Chevy, Dodge's, Jeep, Toyota's, Subaru's, VW's, a Fiat, a Honda, a Volvo, the Saturn, a Geo (Suzuki) Tracker and a Sunbeam Alpine. The Volvo, Jeep, and Honda were the most troublesome.  The Vw's, Fiat & Sunbeam were ok and all the rest gave me great service.

[sparks]

Nothing personal Jochen....you made a choice

I respect that.


sparks

[MountainDon]

Several years ago Chevy sold Toyota Corolla's re-badged as Chevy Nova's.  The cars came off the same assembly line, used the same parts etc., only the badging was different. 

Ditto with the Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe. The Pontiac's name is the worst thing about it IMO.

[MountainDon]

Where were you made ?

Canada. Moved here in '85. I don't plan on moving again.

[glenn kangiser]

If we made anything here and made it ourselves with American craftsmen, it would be cool and maybe good, but we couldn't afford it.

American companies have long sought after the proper design to get a car to just make it past warranty.  I call it, engineered failure.  If they screw up and design a transmission that lasts too long, you can bet it will go back to the drawing board.  Example... Torque converter or transmission in all American diesel trucks -- designed to just make it past warranty if Mamma drives the truck to the store only or a farmer just runs to the field with a spade in the back.  Put it to serious work - you better buy the better one made by an American aftermarket company because that is the only way you can make it do real trucks work.

This is only one of thousands of parts.  The extra profit goes into the union rep's or CEO's pocket - to be stolen and bailed out later.  No such thing as a real work ethic from them or their companies.

Yes -- I'm a Dodge man and yes, I have spent lots of money to make my truck into the rugged pulling beast the factory would do well to emulate instead of create to slowly disintegrate... a part at a time.  Yes -- it is inevitable, but they could do better.

When I was head mechanic at Dodge the shop manager said there are two ways to buy a new one.  All at once or a piece at a time.  The piece at a time is much more costly and they make most of their profit off of that --- the service bay is at your service.... we will gladly hold your wallet.