Off Grid VS Grid Tied

[CREATIVE1]

OK, decision time.   

Just got the quote from Mason County, Washington Public Utility Department.  To run line, put in a transformer, and provide a vault for every 500 feet of the 2,900 feet to the nearest electric costs $21,000.  This doesn't include trenching, minimum 3 feet deep and 12 inches wide.  (We'll also need to do that to run a telephone line, which costs about $300.00.)  Electric service is very inexpensive once we're hooked up, maybe $40.00 - $70.00 monthly with electric heat. 

SO, I'm trying to do a spreadsheet to figure out comparable costs and when we might break even.  If someone else ties into our line, we do get partial payback, but on our 1,200 foot private road that won't happen.  And if we're on grid, I still want a generator and will use primarily wood heat (free all around us).  I'm required by code to have a non-wood system that will heat the entire house, darn it.

We also have a gravity feed water tank up the hill which we'll use even if we have electric.  Lots of sun for solar, except in the winter.  Possibility of a pelton wheel in the creek. 

Specific questions:

1.  What does it cost to run a big diesel generator?

2.  Refrigeration is a biggie.  I've read that having a big freezer/little refrigerator might be best.  Those appliances are EXPENSIVE.

3.  My main issue is light.  Someone living way up the mountain with an impressive set up is always sitting in the dark.  Could solar panels be attached to a secondary LED system or something similar?  I am using skylights, south facing windows, interior glass, and light colors to also provide more light.

4.  I'll be running a business out of the house so will need a laser printer.  I do have portable computers, so no problem there once I get more batteries.   Any suggestions here?  I don't think I'm organized enough at present to make this work!!!

Any and all comments will be helpful.  I have to decide soon.

[Whitlock]

Were is Glenn

[Pox Eclipse]

Propane refrigerators are widely used in off the grid locations in Alaska:

Propane Refrigerators are quiet reliable units that have no moving parts and require no electricity to run. Construction features include: Enameled steel exterior, polyurethane insulation, molded door liner with 18 egg tray, crisper drawer, and reversible door mounting. Includes safety gas shut-off and piezo igniter.

Propane consumption is 650 BTU/hr. with low flame and 1600 BTU/hr. with high flame. Dry cell battery illumination. Limited 1 year warranty.

The Danby model uses about 8 gallons of propane per month. This is a great refrigerator for those living off the grid or for those who want to conserve energy. Because the Danby refrigerator uses LP gas, there's no moving parts to wear out other than the doors.

[harry51]

I found myself on the horns of that same dilemma a few years ago. It was a tough decision, but I finally decided to go with the utility. These are the main reasons:

I have a lot of power-sucking equipment in my shop, and didn't want to have to run a generator so I could use my tools, and also didn't want to buy enough solar to power them.

With the utility, I can have them set another transformer anywhere along the line and have power. When I was looking at this, transmission lines for a solar system more than 100' long or so were not considered practical. (I understand that is not necessarily the case any longer.) If you have a 1200' driveway, you may want to look into this potential issue.

Power conditioning was also a possible issue at the time. That's another thing that may have been resolved since. But at that time, there were people with appliances that didn't work or failed because of the quality of the power coming out of their inverters.

We didn't want to have to count watts or adjust our lifestyle in order to live within the limitations of a solar system we could afford. We didn't look at wind, and don't have enough running water for a pelton wheel. If you do, that may be the best of all worlds if the water supply is reliable.

As we age, I may not feel like maintaining an off-grid system at some point in time.

If we ever were to split off part of the acreage, or sold the place, power is not an issue. Off-grid still has a lot of appeal to me, but for resale, it would certainly mean fewer potential buyers.

Our last pole is the end of the line. If anyone on any of the properties beyond ours wants to hook on, we get money back. That's unlikely to happen any time soon, but with an off-grid system, there is no refund available that I'm aware of. Of course, some states offer subsidies, some pretty substantial. Worth looking into before you decide which way to go.

In our case it looked like it would cost about the same to buy a Chevrolet, but not Cadillac, solar system, or hook up to the grid. We finally decided that although off-grid has advantages, some pretty significant, the advantages of the utility power tie outweighed them, for us.

Some of the factors in favor of off-grid: The fact that you're in the driver's seat, nobody can turn off your juice. No monthly bill. A lot of personal satisfaction earned by achieving self-sufficiency. In a rural setting, being off-grid substantially reduces the leverage the bureaucrats can bring to bear on you. These things all really appeal to me, but I just couldn't justify going off-grid in our particular situation. Maybe I'm just too lazy......

[CREATIVE1]

Lots of food for thought.  I don't like bureaucrats either, but the process of building a house has brought them all down on our heads anyway.  And being 60, we're already about there concerning the whole maintenance issue.  I do want the ability to be independent, though, at least for heat, cooking, and water.  I'm considering a spring house and other options for refrigeration of things that are not terribly perishable.  One thought is a gasketed kitchen pantry with wire shelves and outside air from under the raised foundation. 

The battery dilemma: I understand there are improvements and some leadfree options, but there is the problem of replacement every 5 to 10 years?  This could get expensive.

Washington does offer some incentives.  I'll be calling the county offices this week to get that information which is another big factor here.

[Redoverfarm]

CREATIVE1 the fee's seem about in line with our power company.  They will let you run your telephone with the power in the same ditch at a 12" elevation from the power line.  That would give 24" of fill.  Suppose to be in Sch 40 Electrical conduit 3".  But I have got mixed information as there are two power companies in this area.  Same company but a gap in service between the two.  One was bought out by the other a couple years ago.  I am rambling so to the point and that is that the land owner can put his power at 24" W/O conduit.  Still checking on. But he could not furnish that to another person on up the road.  They do offer a rebate as others stated when someone else hooks up beyond your property then your  amount of cost drops.   But this is just for the first 5 years.  After that if no one hooks up you get nothing back.  There is a up side they have to gain egress to hook up the other customer from you. 

When I built my house I had to run 2,500 feet ( Last on the line). Then the last 400 feet was underground. The cost in 96 was $5K.

[CREATIVE1]

We have two power companies in our area, PUD 1 and PUD 3.  Apparently PUD 1 doesn't charge to run line, just for hookup.  Of course we're on PUD 3.

So am I hearing that we might have some options to ask about regarding conduit?  Interesting.

[MountainDon]

The place to start is to total up you real power requirements. Without that it's all guesswork.

Another part of the equation is will you have any propane. You never mentioned that. Propane can be used for refrigeration. I don't really like the idea because it is a fossil fuel. Good efficient propane fridges (Servel, Danby) are not very big, not as big as we are used to in our suburban home. Some get around that problem with two, switching one off when not needed. Large propane fridges are available but I've heard less favorable things about them. Not sure about propane freezers.

Then there are low power use fridges and freezers like the Sunfrost. Pricey stuff.

A far as I am concerned LED lights have not progressed to where they are affordable in sizes that produce usable amounts of light. Fluorescents are the off grid king.

Good batteries can last a couple decades with proper care. I don't think there are any lead free options that are affordable. The lead ones are recyclable though. Without a large battery bank you need to make some living adjustments, or adjustments to the equipment you have/buy. My ideal battery bank for our suburban home would cost $5K to  $8K. Probably good for 15 - 20 years, possibly more. That would let us have as little living style change as possible. And that's in sunny NM where we have at least 2x the sunshine, 300 days a year average, as you do.

The question/problem mentioned about people having appliance problems when off grid was probably due to cheap inverters. You must use the best. Use pure sine wave, not so called modified sine wave which are quite a bit less expensive and can damage some electrical devices over a long use period. Motors may run hotter shortening their life is a main problem. Noise on cheap radios and TV's may be experienced. As well they may be problems with some battery charging devices... cell phones, etc. Many of those with the little cube that plugs into the wall may be a problem. Chargers with separate cords may not be a problem.

How much does it cost to run a generator? This year or ten years from now? Gas or diesel... well you know what could happen there. OTOH, if off grid you need a generator if only to giver the batteries a good equalization charge every month. If grid connected an auto start generator is very nice to have; essential if you want to have peace of mind that your freezer won't thaw if the outage is extended. Also nice to have lights when the neighbors don't.

If I was building a new permanent residence and if it was grid connected, and if I was not having solar, wind or hydro self generated power as well,  I would like to have a generator. I would also have the house wiring divided up into essential and non essential circuits. Put the refrigeration, a few lights and whatever is absolutely necessary in one group. All else in a second group. Total up the essential loads and size the generator just to serve those needs. Saves money over powering the entire house.

That creek might be the bright point though, IF it has enough flow all year, year after year. A hydro generator could supply power 24/7. That would reduce the size of the battery bank considerably.

The federal energy credits for alternative energy have been expanded to 30%. I don't know if they apply to water and wind or only solar.

[CREATIVE1]

Quote:  I would also have the house wiring divided up into essential and non essential circuits. Put the refrigeration, a few lights and whatever is absolutely necessary in one group. All else in a second group. Total up the essential loads and size the generator just to serve those needs. Saves money over powering the entire house.

Thanks for that gem.  Makes perfect sense.

We can have propane delivered.  I don't like it either.  And the same as with diesel, long term costs are unknown and could be prohibitive.

I'm trying to piece together monthly energy cost, off and on grid.  It sounds like you could end up paying a couple of hundred a month for propane and diesel fuel?   Then add up the additional cost for appliances, inverters, batteries, and a BIG ass generator? 

I'll have a generator, passive solar and some solar collector, wood heat and cooking, no matter how we go---relatively cheap and necessary I think.

[MountainDon]

If you are looking at new appliances have a look at the following website. Even if you are not buying new, your existing ones may be listed if not too old.

http://www.energystar.gov/

They do not rate propane appliances though.

I compared some Sunfost fridges to standard, but most efficient fridges a year or so ago and found that the cost of an extra panel and more batteries, along with an efficient AC fridge from a standard manufacturer could be cheaper than dropping the big dollars for a Sunfrost.    I should re run that.

[CREATIVE1]

Good website.

I find it interesting that they mention whole Energy Star homes and builders.  So, how many countryplan doityourselfers would qualify?

[Redoverfarm]

CREATIVE1 I would check with some contractors who do buisness with both companies in regards to trenching.  If there is a descrepency I would make it know and inquire about which one is going by company policy and which isn't.  Mine is a year or so away in regards to power.  A lot of ground to be covered by other land owners before me.  But I am ready in the fact that the cabin is set up for electric.  In the mean time I will run it as best that my finances will allow.  I am leaning toward a propane standby for both supply to the house and charging batteries.  Will see how much I can burn up until it gets here.


Then add up the additional cost for appliances, inverters, batteries, and a BIG ass generator? 

I don't think you will need a big generator only one that will charge and supply limited power that you will be utilizing. 

[glenn kangiser]

Hi people-- I had to work today so am late.

Creative, as much as I hate to say it, I think the grid is the way you should go.  You  could always lay with solar later, but for $21000 plus trenching you will have all the power you need and your phone and of course DSL so you can post on Countryplans.

21000 would get you a very marginal system - Better will likey be around $30 to $35000 without limiting you a lot.  Another problem there - You will only get about 5% to 10% power on cloudy days so will run the generator a lot.  That gets expensive.  Wind generator could help but also expensive.  Maintenance is expensive if you pay for it, but if you roll up your sleeve and learn it it can be better.

Still - if you feel adventurous and independent, Solar could be a way to go.

We have about 3000 watts of panels and a 1KW wind generator and we want more.  We currently have a 20 cu ft freezer - a medium french door bottom freezer fridge (power hog) and an antique fridge - (the most efficient of all), and an 8 cu ft freezer.  We pump about 500 gpd of water in the summer We want more power.  All appliances - drier etc are propane.

[Whitlock]

I have noticed you said you have a creek. How many G.P.M? How much fall do you have?
Is it flowing all year?
If it flows under the right circumstances. You might have all the power you will ever need with the right water turbine.
I haven't looked into them in a long time.
Might be worth checking into.

Good Luck,W

[CREATIVE1]

The creek is year round, in a 100 foot gorge about 75 feet from the front of the house.  It runs downhill, so there are some waterfalls.  In the winter it's practically whitewater. knocking down trees and, last year, taking out the road beneath us.

Flow is really variable, but a couple of people who've seen it thought power generation might be possible.

I can't do wind where we are, < 11 miles per hour sustained (looked at wind maps).  Geothermal is the most interesting, but we're resting on pillow basalt and also don't have the $$$$ to do it anyway.

It sounds more and more like "on grid" is the way to go.  The other folks on the mountain are going to call us yuppies, though.

[glenn kangiser]

Wind maps don't take microclimates into consideration so it could be beneficial.  Wind is ther many times when solar is not. With enough fall the micro hydro could be good but it depends on how much investment, time and energy you want to dedicate to it.

[CREATIVE1]

With electric costing 6 cents a kilowatt hour(Lake Cushman Dam), half of what it does in Florida, it's looking more and more like I'll be stroking a big check to the electric company once they send me the bill.  I have 30 days to lock in the price, which they say will be going up soon.

[CREATIVE1]

Wind maps don't take microclimates into consideration so it could be beneficial.  Wind is ther many times when solar is not. With enough fall the micro hydro could be good but it depends on how much investment, time and energy you want to dedicate to it.

The way our property is situated, 200 feet up to the road and 100 feet down to the creek and 100 feet up to the far bank, it's kind of a mini valley 1500 feet long.  The tree tops move, but the only real air movement is a steady breeze down the 150 foot wide stream bed.  And good point, we actually DO have a wind microclimate on our mountain, slightly higher than surrounding areas.

We're really not allowed to do anything in the creek bed, and in the winter any structures could wash away.

After reading an incredible number of books and reading available info on the internet, the main thing I've gathered about designing an off grid system is ----- it's not easy!

[glenn kangiser]

You got that right.  On the creek, you would only need about a 2" pipe running to a nozzle and dynamo at the bottom but water would have to return and of course there would be someone to complain about what you do with water on your own property - even if you return it undamaged. 

Something like "The water was degraded because you made it into dizzy water when it went through your dynamo.  Now all of the fish and salamanders get vertigo."

[CREATIVE1]

 

Finally an excuse to use that smiley!

[cordwood]

 I grew up with the old Servel propane fridges and they where terrible, Turn ice cream into a brick and the milk would spoil in a day But they worked good for beer! Maybe all the door opening for the beer is why the milk spoiled? 
We used 12 volt lights most of the time and had a 12 volt wind generator to keep them charged and an inverter for running the big stuff when it was needed. Now with solar pannels being cheaper and more available than they were then I may go back to 12 volts for part of the new house we build.

[Whitlock]

I think I'm going to run a line from Glenn's

[OldDog]

Would a 1 wire alternator and about a 5hp motor be of any help with a battery bank?

You can install a 1 wire regulator in any Delco automotive alternator and theres lots of 5hp Briggs laying around.

Practicing conservation is the most important step you can make.

[MountainDon]

It depends.

If you have a small battery bank consisting of cheap batteries it would likely do the basic job of charging the batteries when the alternative source (sun, wind, water) can not supply enough power.

However, in order to maximize battery life they need an equalization charge once a month or so. That consists of applying a higher voltage than that used for bulk charging, at a low current, for a period of up to three hours.

This equalization rate is available from good quality inverter/chargers such as Outback. There are many others as well, but the cheap inverters do not have this ability. Most battery chargers do not have a equalization rate either. Most are simple bulk chargers. An automotive alternator is basically a bulk charger.

Then there is also the "fiddle factor". That is how much do you want to fiddle around to keep the system up and running at its best? In planning my system for the cabin I had originally planned on going 12 VDC for cabin lights, with an inverter for just the microwave and the odd bit of power tool use. There would have been a separate charger for generator powered charging and equalizing, along with things to switch from here to there, etc. A real home brewed system.

However, I quickly realized that such a system would be a complete mystery to my wife. So we're going to end up with a more expensive, but more of a turn key system. The generator will be able to be started remotely from the cabin or even placed in a circuit that can auto start the generator if the voltage in the battery bank falls below a preset point. With the help of a few simple written instructions she will be able to operate more or less as usual, if I'm not around.  [With me at 62 and K at 50-something, statistically I will die years before she will. I hope to prove that statistics can be wrong.]

[glenn kangiser]

I think I'm going to run a line from Glenn's

Dude... I need more already.

I could rig a generator to a pedal bike for you though.