manufactured I beams in a damp climate

[losttheplot]

Hello.
I would like to build the 20x30 1.5 story cabin.My wife and I own a piece of property on one of the gulf islands, off the east coast of Vancouver Island , British Columbia, (Mudge Island). The lot is pretty steep so I would like to construct a post and pier style foundation. I would like to have only 2 rows of "posts", the rear (higher) being a continuous footing. This would require me to use manufactured I beams, for the floor joists, to make a span of a little over 19ft.

My questions are:

Has anyone built using a similar method and was the floor "stiff" enough?

Has anyone had experience using the manufactured I beams in an open style foundation, in a damp climate?

I will insulate between the floor joists, then either close in the space between the floor and the ground or cover the bottom of the floor joists with sofit style aluminum sheets.

I am just a little worried about the OSB joists being in an unheated, damp environment.

Any advice would be greatly apprechated.

[glenn-k]

Welcome to the forum.  Sounds like an interesting project.  PEG has webbed toes.  Maybe he will have some opinions.  Let me restate that.  I know he will have opinions.  Maybe he will have one we will want to hear.

[peg_688]

Webbed what ! Yes anyway, 19' is a long span even for I joist , the floor will be at least bouncy , now as far as the damp envir. that's a good question, those gulf Isl. are plenty damp and this sounds like a camp / vacation place . John has used Typar , as have I down here in Washington , Whidbey Isl. to be exact, so that might work for you , insulate then Typar the under floor.

I'd go to the type I joist you'll be using , BCI , TJI  or who ever and email or call a rep. tell them your situation they should have a good answer to your question.

 Web feet  :-/ those would be nice today , been rainin pretty hard off and on all day , good day for it Saturday that is  

I'd check out that span as well , sound pretty long to me.  

[glenn-k]

Sorry about the weather, PEG.  72 or so here - sunshine - blue sky - working in the garden and barbecuing me a mystery steak or 3.

No web feet needed here.

BTW.  Why do ducks have flat feet?

[MountainDon]

Why? , re the ducks. And it rained here the last day or so as well.  :'(

[peg_688]

#1: (A)  72 or so here - sunshine - blue sky - working in the garden and barbecuing

      (B)        me a mystery steak or 3.



#2: BTW.  Why do ducks have flat feet?

#1: (A)  Braggart Don't burn um with all that natural heat.

      (B)  Bambi :-/ :'(    

#2:The Swimming Secrets of Duck Feet

 Water birds use their feet to swim through the water, often as a way to get food. Penguins need to dive and swim quickly through the water to chase and catch small fish as prey. Ducks swim to eat from the bottom of ponds, lakes, and streams. Each type of swimming bird has a unique adaptation for locomotion through the water.

How do ducks swim? According to the National History Museum: "Birds with webbed feet can paddle through the water and walk on mud. As a duck pushes its feet back, the web spreads out to provide more surface to thrust the water. Then, as the duck draws its foot forward and brings the toes together, the web folds up so there is less resistance to the water" (NHM, 2006). This resistance is in the form of friction, and is an important force in hydrodynamics and locomotion.


[highlight] Altought I'm pretty sure thats not the answer you where looking for . Interesting none the less.  [/highlight]

Link; http://www.sciencebuddies.org/mentoring/project_ideas/Aero_p014.shtml


This lil tid bit was even more interesting ,

 Why Ducks Feet Do Not Freeze

Our warm-blooded birds that don't fly south for the winter however, have a way of defying this cruel predicament. We know their feathers keep their bodies warm, but they also have a unique way to keep their uncovered feet from freezing up - a remarkable feat when you think of our seagulls and ducks who happily stand around our windy and often icy shorelines with temperatures as cold as -40 degrees Celsius.

These birds have a network of arteries and veins called a rete mirabile. When hot blood comes down to their feet through the arteries, the heat from the blood is transferred to the cold blood going up through its veins in a countercurrent mechanism.

The heat in the blood is exchanged over from the hot artery into the cool vein, so the heat is not lost from the bird. It actually comes back into the bird.

This system enables the birds from losing all their body heat through their feet, and keeps them just warm enough so they don't freeze, ability we unfortunately don't share with our feathered friends.



Jeesh I feel like Mr. Science now  

PS Folks wonder how they get this answer to  "I" joist question , Glenn you are the master of thread drift 8-)

[glenn-k]

Cool - heat exchanger feet just like in people who are over 6 feet tall.

Very good, PEG.  Everything I wanted to know about ducks but was afraid to ask.

The simple answer I was looking for was "Ducks have flat feet to stamp out burning forest fires."


Why do elephants have flat feet?

Crimoney --I watched a little energy video and everyone else went to bed.

[peg_688]

Why do elephants have flat feet?

(

How about this answer ;

Crushing by elephant
From Simple English Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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"An Execution by an Eliphant" (sic), from "An Historical Relation Of the Island Ceylon" by Robert Knox (London, 1681)In the past, many rulers in south and southeast Asia had people crushed by elephants. This was common for more than 4000 years. The Romans and Carthaginians also sometimes did this.

For hundreds of years, people used elephants for military purposes. Death under the foot of an elephant was common for people who left the army or prisoners as well as for military criminals.

The elephant would step upon the head of the condemned, the one commanded to die. Usually, handlers trained the elephant to put its large foot gently on the person's head. At this point, witnesses looked under the elephant's foot to make sure the prisoner was the one who committed the crime. Often, the condemned would scream and beg the witnesses to say it was not him. If a witness stated this was not the criminal, they would probably commit perjury. Perjury means lying at a trial. In those days rulers could punish perjury with death. Few witnesses denied the condemned was the criminal, because then the elephant may crush them instead. Then the mahout, or elephant driver, gave the order, and the elephant would push down with its weight. The skull broke and the foot crushed the head flat.

Sometimes, the elephant would drag the condemned through streets before the crushing. Some elephants crushed the arms and legs first, to increase the pain.

Most rajahs, Indian rulers, kept elephants for death by crushing. The public could often see the deaths; this was the rulers' warning not to commit a crime. Many of the elephants were very large, weighing more than nine tons. Rulers wanted crushing by elephant to be bloody and gross. Some rulers in history condemned children, too.

Many rulers in South Asia used elephants as executioners, ones who put the condemned to death. One nonreligious Mogul Emperor, Akbar (1547-1605), used his favorite elephant as a judge, too. Akbar ruled in the city of Agra from 1570-1585. He believed that his favorite elephant could know who was guilty. He put thousands of people to death this way. Even when the crimes were minor, he sent them to the elephant. Elephant handlers staked them before the great elephant and tried to convince it to step on them. The huge elephant crushed most, but sometimes refused. Akbar believed this proved their innocence and then released them.

There are few records about crushing by elephant. Many records were lost. The British wrote many things about it during their long rule of India. The British used crushing by elephant even into the 20th century. They used it to terrify, and because the Indians had used it before them. When the British took over a state, they liked to use local ways of doing things.

Different regions crushed people by elephant in different ways. One region put people inside of a bag, so they would not have to watch what was about to happen. Then, the elephant would crush the bag flat with the condemned inside. In another region, people made the condemned watch the elephant slowly come from far away. Its huge feet kept coming closer. Sometimes, they buried the condemned to the neck. The elephant would come and step on the head. Some places made the condemned put his head on a special stand. The stand had fountains on the sides where brains and blood would flow when the elephant pressed down its huge foot.

Robert Knox was an English traveler. He wrote about a Sri Lankan crushing in 1681.

[jonseyhay]

to stamp out burning ducks.

[MountainDon]

Hmmm. Damp I-beam environment to ducks to elephants.  All in a single days work and less than one page.  

[glenn-k]

Absolutely correct, Jonesy.

And PEG - You improperly replied to the question, What is that brown stuff between an elephants toes?"  but all in all very educational.

Did anyone else have any more answers to damp OSB  engineered I joists?

[jonseyhay]

No, I think PEG got a grip on that one straight away.

[glenn-k]

I think you are right, Jonesy, and we couldn't waste a perfectly good thread now could we?

The master of thread drift ---moi?  Gotta admit, I am quite good.

[jonseyhay]

You are the best Mate, but you'll need to watch out for PEG. He's after the top spot. I'm out of here before he comes back and belts me with one of those I beams  

[glenn-k]

I am a little worried about PEG.. He's gettin on to me like flies on stink lately....

[desdawg]

Ducks feet and rabbits ears. Rabbits have many blood veins in their ears and that is their cooling system. Well so much for Noah's Ark.

[olypen]

I'm not a real big fan of OSB.  I don't like to use it on the roof or the walls or the floors.  And I really don't like it for floor joists.  You can save a lot of money I suppose but as far as I'm concerned, I'm not willing to scrimp on my dwelling.
I would look more into using dimensional lumber with lots of x-blocking and thicker sheathing.  I am currently working on a 24 x 36 garage with a studio upstairs.  Except for the stairwell it is all clearspan.  We are using floor trusses with 5/4 plywood over it.  This has realy made a very strong floor.  These floor trusses cost mare but I think they are well worth it.

[losttheplot]

Thanks for the advice regarding increasing the blocking and sheathing.
I am not a big fan of chipboard either, however the engineers claim to have the gluing process well refined, I am still pretty doubtful. It is always nice to here from people that have already been down the road I am traveling.

I have to transport my materials by boat, then by hand, to the job site.  Those lightweight joists were looking very appealing to my sore back.

The house will be heated and occupied full time, the "unheated" was in reference to the underside of the floor. From the small amount of research I have done it appears it is best to let the floor "breath" by using a sofit style of material to hold in the insulation. Does anyone have any advice on what to do about keeping the insulation in and the mice out?

I have not noticed any plastic style house wrap being used, in the central Vancouver Island area, for a few years now. It appears that 20min tar paper is being used. There were a lot of problems with damp buildings here, but I am not sure if the plastic wrap was part of the problem.

We get an average of 30inches of rain per year in the area; however we are on the north side of a hill.

While I was building a shed to have the power hooked up, an old guy stopped by to say hello. The first thing he asked was how old am I? I told him I was 35 and he said "I should have long enough to finish" He has been milling the logs and building his cabin for 10 years or more. My neighbor took 5 years, but his house is quite large.
It seems like the 20x30 1.5story is well suited to owner builders working mostly alone; however, there are a few things I am not sure about. So (if it is OK?) I would like to get a few ideas on how to complete different parts of the project.  This is mostly to give myself the confidence to attack the project. I have been clearing the lot and am half way through installing the septic system and so far it has only taken me 18 months. Twice the time and double the cost..........bang on schedule  

[glenn kangiser]

We are here to help so ask away.  We volunteer our time and you won't get guarantees but we hand out lots of opinions and ideas as well as unofficial help from off duty pros and members with little to lots of experience.

Note that OSB type materials if wet for extended periods of time do swell outrageous amounts and deteriorate - but if dry hold up pretty decent.  That doesn't mean we have to like them. :-/

[PEG688]

If your going to be living in the place the heat from inside will keep the subfloor dry if not warm.

My thought where the place would be unoccupied thats a different kind of thru and thur damp/ wet.

If it's a house generally occuptied heated etc , I think those I joist will be fine .

If you plan on leaving that under floor totally open , no skirting ?? Even PT wood type skirting would help block the wind from howeling under the place you could Typar the under floor , or 3/8" plwood it using a continous soffit vent strip.

 If you Typar it the Typar will breath , you'd have to used a strapping , 1x2's , wood lathe , or some such to insure it stayed upand tight.

 If you did a PT wood skirt , you could treat it like a normal crawl space almost.

The span  still sounds to me to way to much/ long.