GM Food for thought....

[glenn kangiser]

Anybody want to see if there is anything to this. 

I more suspect the Jet plane pollution we see daily spreading and covering the skies but maybe it is the frankenfood.

http://www.eutimes.net/2010/04/russia-reports-over-2-million-dead-in-us-as-mysterious-die-off-accelerates/

[eddiescabin]

Glenn, I am pretty sure only badpeople died!  But along the lines of conspiracy theories and Global Warming...the Icelandic Volcano is putting out 750 tons of greenhouse pollution each day!  In 90 minutes that is more than every automobile engine ever produced.  *These numbers are from my poor memory, but on the same scale of alarm...or not alarm as it is an entirely natural occurance.

[dug]

I don't know if genetically modified food is poison or not (though I suspect it is), but it should be obvious that having a corporation controlling the worlds food supply is not exactly a good idea.

But along the lines of conspiracy theories and Global Warming...the Icelandic Volcano is putting out 750 tons of greenhouse pollution each day!

According to the US Geological Survey, all the worlds volcanos, both land and undersea, produce 200 million tons of CO2 annually, while our automotive and industrial activities produce 24 billion tons of CO2 each year.

Who's right? Who cares! I can see the brown cloud enveloping Tucson from more than 50 miles distant, and I don't require a scientific study to know that it is probably not real healthy to live within that cloud. That's the # 1 reason I moved away from there.

Ever seen photos of cities in China with no reg's? Wanna live there?

It would behoove the human race to stop bickering over details and focus on the big picture.

Stock your seeds and grow your own!

[Whitlock]

I wonder how much of this corn we sell to Russia

[eddiescabin]

Dug, there is a noticable difference in the smog cloud that enveloped Los Angeles in the 70's and today, which is much cleaner.  We have smog laws here that are NOT for the benefit of air quality, but are for generating commerce & fees!  Funny, they scrutinize auto emissions yet do nothing about bunker fuel/heavy oil burning ocean going ships which reportedly produce huge amounts of pollution. To a casual observer, it seems odd we take such measures for auto emissions while just across the water China and others spew filth. In the Bay Area, they no longer allow installation of wood burning fireplaces without a catalytic converter..and even with one they have "No Burn" days, which seem to fall on the coldest days.  Oddly the State's enforcement efforts include sending herds of automobile mounted Air Police to randomly look for No Burn offenders!?!

[MountainDon]

I'm not sure what your point is eddiescabin. First you note that the air is much cleaner today than back in the 70's. Then you go on to berate the regulations here that made us have cleaner air than in cities in China.  

We have smog laws here that are NOT for the benefit of air quality, but are for generating commerce & fees!

Examples?  

[eddiescabin]

mountainD, my point is that the smog biz and restrictions/requirements are more than cumbersome.  Many performance vehicles will require "Test Only" smog tests where the tester cannot make repairs and the test is much more $$ in addition to the State Cert fee..  the CARB (air resources board) adds new requirements all the time, which cost more for testing. the latest is EVAP where they test your gas tank. Similarly CARB requires permits for construction equip which is a rather new thing that made many capital investments instantly obsolete.  Think a large contractor with 1000 pieces of equipments and a large permit fee for each piece. That is only if the piece meets Tier 3 requirements...many co's pay big bucks for retrofits.  A similar thing is being fought at the Ports here and diesel trucks, the state requires  diesel scrubbers putting many cargo haulers out of biz. The regs have also ruined used car sales as most sell them "as is" meaning the smog is up to you, if it doesnt pass you bought a paperweight. It is not really legal, the smog is the seller's responsibility, but that is not how it works in real life. Now consider that anything 1975 and earlier can have straight pipes thru the hood and the county just next to us does not have equally harsh restrictions and pass smog tests far easier than here. Now they want to smog your lawnmower and BBQ- not kidding!

[fishing_guy]

We had the emission inspections here in Minnesota for a total of 10 years.  The state put up testing centers, hired the people, started testing cars.  The problem?  It was initiated by a report by a researcher who took readings at the busiest city intersection at the worst traffic jam time of day.  When his readings didn't come up to the threshold he wanted, he then "weighted" his findings to simulate a 12 hour time period of these conditions.  His reward?  To be made head of the state agency doing the testing.

In the end, it was shown that the gas burned in line waiting to be tested caused more pollution than the 1% of cars they "caught".

It was a joke.

[MountainDon]

So what is the solution? Return to dirty air?

The big city near where I live experienced almost no "no burn days" every year for the past 6 or so years. When we first moved here 25 years ago there were many days when a brown cloud hovered over the city, days at a time. Since then vehicle emissions testing was implemented as well as the "no burn" rule. No burn only applies to non EPA certified devices, BTW.

Around here there are now so many testing locations there is seldom a long line.

I also agree that at times government regulations seem onerous. But I'd rather breath today's cleaner air.

On a related subject, the water that flows down the Rio Grande is also cleaner today than back in 1985.

[fishing_guy]

As is the water in the Mississippi.  The fish have returned and are thriving.
Sometimes I fear that we are trying to go after the last little bit of pollution with a vengence.  It is a case of diminishing returns.  The cleaner you get it, the more it costs in terms of economics and societal costs.
There are common sense things we do to limit our effects.  Those are easy.  Others are not so easy.  Or as obvious. 
There is a segment of society which embraces electric cars.  That is fine, as some of the electric can be generated from solar or wind, at a somewhat elevated economic cost.  It can be generated by hydro power at an environmental cost to the health of the streams and rivers.  It can be generated by coal (environmentally dirty), nuclear (Long term storage issues), or as in the case of Minnesota clean air movement, Natural gas (cleaner, but causes home heating to be more expensive, which causes citizens to move toward wood(A huge no no in the urban environment)).  The reason most people consider it is the thought that it is generated somewhere else.  Therefore we don't have to deal with the issues involved.

When government chooses the method to save us from ourselves, it tips the scale one way or another artificially.  It is only after a period of time that we see the true effects.

Common sense should rule.  If you choose to use a gas powered lawnmower, keep it tuned up.  Ditto on your vehicle.  Turn off the lights and appliances when you aren't using them.  Choose to buy stuff with less packaging.  Recycle when possible.  Etc...etc...etc...

But don't ever tell me I can't bbq on a given day...I don't do it that often...and smoked meats are the ONLY way to go when cooking outside. 

[Woodsrule]

Don, I agree with most of what you say. I am glad that cars now have catalytic converters and manufacturers are mandated to design cars that get more mpg than before. However, the "emission testing" is a scam and every mechanic knows it. To emission test millions of cars each year is ridiculous because the testing itself does not create any clean air. Any mechanic will tell you that this test can be defeated easily and often is. I believe the answer to cleaner cars is in the design phase - I'm all for new technology, but the "hybrid" scam is just that - a scam. The manufacture of these cars is intensive and the resultant product uses more energy than is ever saved by the design of the car. On a side note, I see more and more "Smart" cars each day. I believe these types of cars will reduce more emissions than any other method.

[JavaMan]

Ok, I have to chime in here.... While I agree that some of the regs have cleaned the air considerably (LA being an example - altho, it still is filthy looking when you fly in to LAX), there are indeed a lot of "revenue enhancement" regulations on the books and more getting implemented.

Speaking of CARB - those new (as of 10 or 15 years ago) pumps with the vapor recovery systems?  The ones to keep the hydrocarbons from escaping into the air while you fuel your car?  When I lived in San Diego, I worked for a company that built the "Processors" for those systems, I discovered what happens to those vapors that they recover.  Yes, they do get pumped back into the tank, but they don't condense, so the pressure in the tank increases to the point that something has to be done about it.  Enter the "Processor" ... which takes the excess vapor and burns it, reducing the pressure in the tank!  a processor is basically a furnace that burns gasoline that sits outside in the open.

I don't say that all environmental protection rules are bad, but there are indeed some that are just there for the revenue they bring in, either to the state directly, or indirectly through the industry that springs up to "clean up" the issue.

That's my $0.02 on it...

[MountainDon]

I was under the impression that as fuel was pumped into a vehicles tank the air/vapor that was being displaced from the vehicle tank was routed back to the storage tank, replacing the the volume of fuel that was being pumped out of the storage tank. Ditto when the taker truck would come to refill the storage tank; fuel flowing out of the truck goes into the storage tank and the air/vapor from the storage tank is routed to the tanker truck.    Maybe that's too simple a view? 

[MountainDon]

OK that was too simplistic...




Gasoline stations rely on vacuum-assisted dispensing systems to minimize the release of hydrocarbon vapors to the atmosphere. These systems use a small pump to draw air and vapors from the gasoline dispensing nozzle. For every liter of gasoline dispensed from the pump, as much as 2 liters of air and gasoline vapor are returned to the storage tank. Build-up of air in the tank leads to atmospheric releases.

MTR and OPW Fueling Components have developed a membrane vapor recovery system for the fuel storage tanks of retail gasoline stations. The OPW Vaporsaver™ system, fitted with MTR's membranes, recovers gasoline vapors and returns them to the storage tank. Hydrocarbon emissions are reduced by 95% to 99%.

Air from the gas station dispenser is collected and sent to the gasoline storage tank. When the pressure in the tank reaches a preset value, a pressure switch activates a small compressor that draws off excess vapor-laden air. A portion of the hydrocarbon vapors condense and is returned to the tank as a liquid. The remaining hydrocarbons permeate the membrane and are returned to the tank as concentrated vapor. Air, stripped of 95% to 99% of the hydrocarbons, is vented. In addition to eliminating hydrocarbon emissions, the unit pays for itself with the value of the recovered gasoline.

http://www.mtrinc.com/gasoline_vapor_recovery.html

[ScottA]

Talk about thread drift. You guys got nothing on Glenn and Stink. Happy Earth Day!

[dug]

Agreed on the thread drift.

I was actually interested in what folks think about genetically modified food.

[ScottA]

I was actually interested in what folks think about genetically modified food.

I think it's a crime againt humanity but don't tell anyone I said that. I wouldn't want to be labled as a radical or something.

[glenn kangiser]

Good job, people. 

[SardonicSmile]

Any of you guys ever seen the horror movie where everyone commits suicide from inhaling some kind of dangerous pollen? It's a recent movie.. 3 years ago. Can't place the name. 

Glenn, I am pretty sure only badpeople died!  But along the lines of conspiracy theories and Global Warming...the Icelandic Volcano is putting out 750 tons of greenhouse pollution each day!  In 90 minutes that is more than every automobile engine ever produced.  *These numbers are from my poor memory, but on the same scale of alarm...or not alarm as it is an entirely natural occurance.

Please check your sources before you post things like this! This is a myth..

[NM_Shooter]

Please check your sources before you post things like this! This is a myth..

Good luck with that request.