Do Sewer, Electric and Water equal on Grid?

[intelijoc]

Is off grid the ability to select and maintain these services oneself?  Simply, can the owner/builder get a CO without these services in place?


thanks

[OlJarhead]

I guess it depends on who is defining what 'the grid' is.  Originally it meant the electrical grid but became more synonymous with having no utilities at all and usually living out away from them.  So no modern conveniences.

I call myself 'off the grid' but I'm not 100% off the grid because I have Hughesnet internet, a phone line and Satalite TV.  But then I'm not living 'off the grid' for any poltical reason or environmental reason.  I'm doing it because it's what I want to do and in part because it's cheaper (bringing power in would cost a lot more than solar power did).

What is the reason for the question?  What's a 'co'?

[flyingvan]

Are you still in Park County?  Their webpage is a wealth of info about certificates of occupancy http://parkco.us/Search/Results?searchPhrase=certificate+of+occupancy&page=1&perPage=10

[intelijoc]

Yup still PC - just having a hard time rationalizing the $$ for well septic  and electric
Thanks for the link

[MountainDon]

Well, if you are required to have any permits such as building permit or zoning authorization I would certainly ask about the options for water, septic and grid tie electrical.  If you are flying low I don't know if lack of permits are added up to make it worse or not. But then the county can demand removal.

[Don_P]

Generally if public water and sewer are available to a property you have to tie into them rather than running a well and septic. Generally this is brought about by public health concerns, for instance in my county we are trying to extend water to a small community that has polluted most of its' wells with septic systems. In order to help offset the cost of developing the mains and to get them on clean water without the possibility of cross connections/ contamination everyone along that line will be required to connect and will be required to disconnect from their wells. Forced sewer mains will follow but the immediate need is being taken care of first. I'm not aware of any requirement to tie into the power grid but if its' available it is the lowest cost, generally most reliable option, that said a friend has battery backup grid tied solar and has the best of both worlds, he doesn't even know when the grid goes down and most of his power bill is offset by his power production.

[intelijoc]

Ok these dwellings are well and septic. The cash outlay for well, septic, electric (one pole away) driveway( well driller needs to get his rig on the property) 30k and these were 2007 prices. Composting potty's, solar and cistern will provide costs savings but in the long run maybe not the best option. This is not a primary residence

[hpinson]

It looks like you have County prescribed requirements and process for building:

Park County Building Permit Guide
http://parkco.us/documentcenter/view/182

In that document I see a septic system requirement and a fire mitigation plan requirement which implies a water source, and those would need to be in place (inspection passed) to get your CO.  I see no particular specification if the water source has to be a well, community water, delivered water, or a rainwater collection system cistern.  There is probably a minimum GPM flow requirement but I don't see it stated.

There are quite a few other requirements too, and it might be worth just making a checklist from that document.

I see no specification for a particular type of power source or plumbing. However I do see you will be subject to electrical and plumbing  inspections. Solar is pretty acceptable these days.  Compost toilets, greywater systems, and outhouses are more difficult.

You really need to talk to your building department and see if solar power and alternate black and grey water systems are allowed.  Especially for the latter, they may have some specific prescribed solutions. For instance, The State of New Mexico Environment Department, who issues septic permits, has a list of allowed non-traditional systems. Depending on what you are building your septic on - a non-traditional system may even be required!

Really-- talk to your building department - preferably an inspector. They will quickly tell you what will and will not fly.

[Lindym]

We don't plan to be "on grid", power is 1/2 mile away on the County Rd, but we do plan on solar and the well is in already. When we were looking for the best place to go we came across Okanogan Co, WA. My daughter kept calling the building department and asking "what if" questions. Finally the guy told her, "yes, you need to have permits etc but if you don't the worse that will happen is either a $500 fine or 30 days in jail", but apparently they also don't come looking around  So.....

[intelijoc]

thank you for the link hpinson.. the cash outlay upfont may actually be a long term benefit since the other family members will have access. I was speaking with an owner who never built out but put in the "infrastructure" (apologies if this is not the correct nomenclature)driveway cut, septic, well and cleared. This was 2007 and his expense was 17k for the well, 6k septic and 5k driveway, clearing was another 2k - so 30k- electric was 2 poles away but I never asked on that cost. Oh, well permit was 400$.  I was only budgeting 100k for the whole package but that does not get me what we need. Recently spoke with a long time builder who is very familiar and  has completed 15 homes here. He said he does 1 to 3 projects a year. He gave me "general" finished sqf price- $125 finished. Ouch! I would like to do it for half that. One advantage I may have I have a 9 week summer break each year because I am a teacher and think that if I allocate 8 weeks on the build site I could save substantially? But Im not sure how my limited build knowledge coupled with a chunk of time off from work equals costs savings? I welcome ideas on this..

[rick91351]

We don't plan to be "on grid", power is 1/2 mile away on the County Rd, but we do plan on solar and the well is in already. When we were looking for the best place to go we came across Okanogan Co, WA. My daughter kept calling the building department and asking "what if" questions. Finally the guy told her, "yes, you need to have permits etc but if you don't the worse that will happen is either a $500 fine or 30 days in jail", but apparently they also don't come looking around  So.....

I guess I don't understand the issue of permitting.....

I would take what is said over the phone with a grain of salt.  Here an older couple lost every thing in the bubble.  Took what they had left which was not much and built two small buildings in dog trot fashion to escape permitting.  Then some one turned them in - they got busted and evicted.  He faced fines and jail time.  Last I talked to him he escaped both.  However before they can occupy their small home it has to be brought up to code.  That is impossible.  From what I understand now they are squatting on their own property in a old travel trailer.  They do face removal or bunched and burned.  It can not be sold so I have heard with out removal.     

See there is an issue of forgiveness ....  It is sort of like yes you can do jail time or a fine.  Pick up trash and litter along the highway, do community service on weekends.    Sure piece of cake...... I would never had to pay the couple grand for permitting on my house I am building.  Cool I'll pay $500 any day of the week to save a couple grand....  I would just march into planing and zoning ask for a ticket pay the fine and get it over with.  You bet great way around it.  But look it is as if you are uninsured and get caught ....  It is the same because your fine nor jail time does not grant forgiveness.  Next time they pull you over and ask for proof of insurance just try and tell them its okay I don't need insurance because I paid my fine and or did jail time..... 

As far as them coming around looking they don't.  Neighbors do and they do make phone calls.  When I had my shop built I pulled an AG building permit.  Some one turned me in because they thought I was building an apartment above.  AG permits can not include a dwelling.....  We had had planing and zoning.... the assessors clerks and the law was just down the road.  I did have a set of plans as such but we never built it.  Several people did see those plans however.  Some one built a non permitted pond I know of.  They got turned in and forced to return it to 'as before'.  Rest assured there are plenty of spies to go around.   

[rick91351]

thank you for the link hpinson.. the cash outlay upfont may actually be a long term benefit since the other family members will have access. I was speaking with an owner who never built out but put in the "infrastructure" (apologies if this is not the correct nomenclature)driveway cut, septic, well and cleared. This was 2007 and his expense was 17k for the well, 6k septic and 5k driveway, clearing was another 2k - so 30k- electric was 2 poles away but I never asked on that cost. Oh, well permit was 400$.  I was only budgeting 100k for the whole package but that does not get me what we need. Recently spoke with a long time builder who is very familiar and  has completed 15 homes here. He said he does 1 to 3 projects a year. He gave me "general" finished sqf price- $125 finished. Ouch! I would like to do it for half that. One advantage I may have I have a 9 week summer break each year because I am a teacher and think that if I allocate 8 weeks on the build site I could save substantially? But Im not sure how my limited build knowledge coupled with a chunk of time off from work equals costs savings? I welcome ideas on this..

Myself I think you save a lot DIY but if you do not have the still set or have time to learn a new skill set.  I think then it pays to hire some done or hire a helper that knows more than I do.  I hired a guy from up here that has a lot of framing experience.  Basically I was his labor but as the owner builder I called the shots, or made the decisions.  But I also knew to step back and be the grunt......Same with the concrete - but I at one time was around concrete so he hired me.  I would be out there before he showed up and was out there after he left.  I toted form boards and set them - ran rebar per code, helped pour concrete.  Stripped the forms and scrapped the boards and piled them to load back on the trailer.  I worked as hard and as long as I could and he did cut the bid priced substantially.  I might sound as if I did it all rest assured I did not.  Mike did his fair share as well.  Fact if I / we would have been in our twenties rather than sixties we very well might toss in together for a while.           

Couple things you might think of trying one is sweat equity.  Working a contractor / builder you get turned into a laborer.  You tote, lift and do some simple straight cutting stuff like 50 boards at 22.5 inches.  Then we need a hundred for blocking and on and on.  You sweep and pick up and pretty well have to know where everything is at but don't have to know really anything other than I know there is a 27 inch 2x6 over there in the cut pile somewhere and you can find it like a good bird dog in a thicket.  For this and good honest days working expect to get a agreed to piece of the bid rebated to you.

You might ask the builder how much for just drying me in.  Basically he gives you a product that is a shell that has a roof, windows and doors.  Partition walls on the inside that is basically it.    Then it is up to you to finish as you go.  Or I might have him take it a little further - I want it dried in and I want the siding on.  Or siding might be part of his dried in package.  I like that idea because then you do not have to worry about the weather getting to the sheeting.  And you don't have to worry about the neighbors getting upset at your 'eyesore'.  Again ask about sweat equity.

The $125 per sq ft is high for some areas and not for others.  Here I am thinking more on the $150 mark because of the price of fuel and time spent on the road.  70 mile round trip and a couple hours each way.  Four hours shot out of your day..... just to get from and to civilization.  Then this brings up another issue.  How close is the nearest lumber - hardware store?  Another reason I did not choose to do plumbing or electrical is I never get it all.  I am short a 90 degree elbow or a box extension or a half inch widget pin for the defibrillator shaft on the gizmotron.  It cost me $50 bucks and a half day in the pick up to make the run to town and back now for a half inch widget pin......   

[intelijoc]

that answers my question rick91351.. I have good caulking and paint skills, can lay tile set a toilet  basic electric- but you nailed it, I have no problem being the owner/builder and then the apprentice, grunt...your early up on the mountain last one down philosophy is great. Did you save 10% of the total project by being involved?

[rick91351]

that answers my question rick91351.. I have good caulking and paint skills, can lay tile set a toilet  basic electric- but you nailed it, I have no problem being the owner/builder and then the apprentice, grunt...your early up on the mountain last one down philosophy is great. Did you save 10% of the total project by being involved?

I would have to say I am way more a head than the 10% because I have called in as many 'markers' as I can think of.  I for years and years have been using the same lumber yard.  They have always given me great discounts and freebes.  I do not do the big box stores if the lumber yard carries it.  I even picked up lumber and siding up at his wholesalers if he does not have time to grab it.  The owner has brought me up several bunches of reject 2X4s and 6's and what-nots.  You need stuff like that for blocking and bracing and more places than you realize.  He said he knew I can use them here on the ranch or on the house.  I picked up an order of misordered knotty alder doors from him and used them because they were cheap and pretty basically we liked them and they were a lot less (cheap) and framed to them.  The front and back doors were consignments from a large Boise Wholesaler to him.  They are seconds but you have to look very hard to find why.  Hard not to use a $500 door for like $150 when the artificial wood grain is a tiny bit off where it mates.

The places I never really got any breaks are the plumber, drywall guy, the Mexican siding crew that worked from day light to dark several days to get 'er done and the roofer nor insulator.  The HVAC I did get a break because I have known him for like 35 years.  I got a great break from the electrician because I did him some favors.  We did all the tile work  minus I hired the pan done because I had rough luck doing that before not real bad but not real good.  (This house we are trying real good.)     That turned into a grand more than I though because he did not like the way the drywall crew did the shower.  So we demolished and came back in with wedi board and some other board but not cement nor hardi.  The sheet rock guys were saying use red guard it last for ever and is cheap and on and on.  The guy that did the pan say he removing a lot showers done like that and coming back in with this combo.  He is in his sixties and is so hard to get a hold of because he is so popular with builders.  I worked with his dad on the railroad.  So he did me a favor getting it right.  So I guess there is a good cross section that I would say full price and then some that 'went shopping'.  Ellen bought the cabinets from a wholesaler that we know.  She got a good deal on them however I am a wood worker and may still build a set for the kitchen in a few years more because I want to than I need to. 

So where are we in this now?  I have lots of pine lumber dried and piled to do the trim out.  It was harvested here and sawmilled at my 'neighbors' place.  I have a nice sized planer and a monster router table and pretty good table saw.  I am planning to mill all the wood floor from fir that was local.  I bought it from my neighbor as well.  So my outlay there is pretty low.  As far as floor coverings we do not and have not for years had a  house with carpet nor vinyl.  Love the look and feel of woods.  The moldings and trim I plan on doing myself.  I have two porches that I still have to build and am still wondering what I will do there for decking.  My wife is the painter and tile-setter and will return to painting shortly outside the way the weather is turning. 

If I do not have to hire much else done..... We will come in about what we figured we could do it for but like I say we called in ever favor we could and then some.  In short God smiled on us in this.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=12965.0

[newhouse]

Long time lurker, had to join after seeing this thread.  I'll be building an off grid house in S.E. Park Co. within the next year.  That area is expensive to build in due to having a long travel distance to anywhere. (lumber yard, contractors, etc.)  My initial contact with Park Co officials has been positive so far.  They appear to be strict, but will soon see if they're also reasonable!  Will PM you later for your location and share info on building, etc.

[intelijoc]

Yup- that's calling in a few markers I'd say! Me FLorida. It with some construction connections in Vegas for what that's worth. If I was purely logical and clinically financial I would never consider this build and I'm sure we never would never have a moon landing under our belt. That being said I congrats you on the project. I would love to be more hands on but logistically not possible. Not sold on the prefab Deltec home yet but looking for under 1000sqf