20x34(?) 1.5 story in Ashe County, NC

[Redoverfarm]

After several readings I think I'm following you.  Not sure I'm going to go to the trouble to track down a diverter for the shed building.  If the metal roofing supplier has them handy then great - otherwise I'll probably skip it. 

Redover - what is the siding on the addition section and gables over the log walls on your place?  Is that real board and batten or battens over something else?  It looks really good.  I'd like to do something similar on our cabin.  The shed is just going to get T1-11. 

The diverter is probably a special order as they would have to know the color, and what pitch to pitch you wanted to make it up per your roof. 

As for the B&B on the cabin it is 1X8 (7/8" X 7-1/2") pine with 1&7/8" batten also 7/8" thick.  It is coated with a  oil based semi-transp stain.  I will go back over it with a sealer later.  A small detail that you probably can't see is that I champhered both outside edges of the batten strips.  That was done in some of the original B&B's.  It sort of blends the wall a little better. 

[pickngrin]

Made it up to the property this past weekend and got a fair amount done on the shed/cabin prototype.  Started by getting the gable ends framed.  I then moved on to some bird blocking, but realized I didn't need to get that done before putting up the siding, which was my big goal for the trip.  So we switched to putting the siding up.  Got all that done except for one gable end.  Put in two windows and a door so now we can lock the place up.  Of course there's no roof yet . . .



I hope to get back up in a couple weekends to get the roof on.  I know it's not ideal to leave the T-111 edges exposed to weather, but that's how it goes.  I'm still not 100% sure how I'm going to deal with the transition between the main roof and the porch roof, but I have an idea.  As you can see I had to trim the rafter tails just to be able to open/close the door. 

So far this has been a very useful experience for getting me thinking and planning on what it's going to be like building the 20x34 cabin.  I'm glad that my first experience with a 12/12 roof won't be on the big cabin.

Picked up a copy of 3D Home Architect and plan to start messing with that soon.  I don't anticipate many changes to John's plan - really just stretching the length by 4 feet.  Hopefully I can figure out how to use the program (no guarantees there) and will be able to post my floorplan ideas for feedback. 

Big thanks to my mom who came along on this trip to keep the youngster entertained.  In addition to the shed building going on there were several fairy houses built and lots of books read at the picnic table with temps in the 30's-40's. 

 

png

[Redoverfarm]

png good progress for the weekend.  With the roof on you will be able to at least camp out once the temp's raise a little.

[Don_P]

Tri State Components in Sparta can bend custom flashing and stocks a fair number of colors. I would imagine your supplier can as well. Usually the transition is a simple folded piece like a valley, the lower edge is hemmed, or folded back on itself to stiffen and make a nice bottom edge. There should be foam closure strips compatible with the metal profile you are using. The strips go on top of the transition flash for the house side metal and under it for the porch side.

Flashing AT1 in this guide shows their transition metal,
http://www.fabral.com/downloads/details-postframe.pdf
Their installation detail drawing is on page 23

[pickngrin]

Thanks Don - I don't actually have a supplier at this point.  I was just thinking ahead to when I get to roofing the actual cabin.  When the time comes I'll have to check out Tri State Components.  For the shed roof I'm just going with 5v tin roofing, which seems more geared toward utilitarian applications so I doubt a custom pitch diverter would be available. 

[Redoverfarm]

png I got my metal from "lifetite" and they offered a diverter.  As long as the color and rib configurations are the same it wouldn't make any difference.  They used to just "jam" the shed up under the other but it did nothing to keep the water from ice dam to leak into the main house.  When you are going from a steep to gradual pitch change that is where the snow will end up at. 

[pickngrin]

Redover,

I thought about the shed roof/porch roof junction more last night.  I was originally thinking I'd have the porch roof entirely under the main roof - like you've done on your cabin and shown in a picture in this thread - but I'm not going to have much room under there unless I trim the rafters really short.  I guess this is a result of ~8' sidewalls and a 12/12 pitch roof.  So I'm thinking of sistering the porch rafters to the roof rafters, which would mean I should have some sort of pitch diverter.  So I'm back to thinking about using a piece of 12" wide aluminum flashing as a makeshift diverter.  Of course this brings up the issue you pointed out about there being a gap left where the flashing goes over the ridges and valleys of the roofing.  So how to deal with that.  Do you think I could just use some kind of roofing caulk/tar to help seal up these gaps? 

I'm not too concerned about snow as we're not in a real heavy snow area.  A total of 19" is predicted this winter by this site:  http://www.raysweather.com/Fearless+Forecast  Of course we have had something of a snow drought over the last 20 years.  Snowfall totals have failed to reach the 49 year average for 16 of the past 20 years. 

Question about your porch columns.  I assume you used a draw knife to peel the logs?  Did you let them dry before setting them in place?  I really like the look of log posts for the porch but don't want to use them if it means putting off finishing the building while I wait for the posts to dry out. 

Thanks 

When it does snow there it typically doesn't hang around too long. 

[Redoverfarm]

PNG They make a sealer strip. Foam that will contour to the ribs.  It is flat on the top and only coutoured on the bottom which would be ideal for this application.  I would use it and apply a good caulk material to the bottom side only after it is applied (not that much only to backup in case the adhesive fails).  It is self adhesive and comes in a roll to tear off individual pieces to match the width of your sheeting. 

As for the post.  They were almost dry when I put them up.  They probably sit in place for a month or two before staining.  But you need to get the bark off and at least let the first couple of layers to dry.  What is the worst that could happen.  You might have to go over them again but you are not talking about that much area anyway.  Best time to get your post is in the spring when the sap runs in the trees.  The bark comes off so much easier than during the fall and winter.  If you ever notice the bark faced post and rails that you see.  They are harvested in the winter and the bark stays on them.

Have you bought your metal yet?  What company made it?

[pickngrin]

OK, I think I follow you on the adhesive backed foam.  Sounds essentially like weatherstripping? 

Do you prefer any particular species of tree for use as posts?  I'll probably go that route for the main cabin, but will likely use pt 4x4s for the shed porch posts.  I found one in my mom's crawl space so I'd only have to buy 1 or 2 more unless I can scrounge up some others. 

Nope haven't bought the metal.  I usually just get the stuff at Lowe's or the local Agri-Supply: http://www.agrisupply.com/product.asp?pn=11747 

Though to date I haven't used it in an application with a ridge peak - it's been all shed roof stuff.  I'm assuming I can find some sort of ridge cap. 

[Redoverfarm]

Png I used locust.  But some say that was a little overkill.  It is heavy but should last out my life time and part of my sons as well.  They are 10-12" dia.   It is also resistant to most insects.  If you have tree's on the property you could probably utilize them.  But if they are exposed find a way to elivate them off the deck so water will not lay under them.  I used a piece of mining conveyor belt then lagged them down from underneath.

Ridge cap. Yes.  Anyone that sells metal also sells ridge caps.  They sort of go hand in hand.  The diverter can probably be ordered from whom you buy the metal from.  They are usually a SO item.   But IMO it is the best to use.  I looked and they do have the ridge.  You might ask them about ordering a pitch diverter. The foam is usually the depth of the peak to the flat plus 1/4".

http://www.agrisupply.com/aluminum-ridge-cap/p/11764/cn/3600001/

[pickngrin]

Made it up to the property last weekend and got the roof put on the shed.  We got there Friday around noon and left Sunday morning about 9:00.  Flurries to snow showers were expected for Sunday but when we woke up Sunday morning the roads were already covered.  So I was happy to get as much done as we did on Friday afternoon and Saturday.  In our haste to get packed up and get home I ended up leaving our trailer at the property and all my tools locked in the shed.  Hopefully everything will be in order when we go back, probably next weekend.  We're supposed to get 2-4" of snow in Raleigh tonight and then it's going to be in the 70's next weekend.  I've heard they got about 8" of snow near our property so far today.  Hopefully that will be melted by next weekend.

On the porch rafters I ended up just nailing them to the roof rafter tails.  There's room underneath them to put some kind of ledger board for additional support, but I'm not sure that's even necessary.  The porch rafters still need to be trimmed and the porch roofing still needs to be done.  There's lots of other little detail work to do before the place is called done, but I'm happy it's at least got a roof.  I left off the roofing screws at the bottom end of the roofing on the porch side so I can shove some flashing under it and then put the porch roofing under that.



I didn't think roofing the 12/12 pitch was too difficult, but I'm glad to have some experience on something smaller and not as high before taking on the full size cabin.  I still may decide to contract out the roof of the main cabin. 

[pickngrin]

With the amount of time and money that have gone into the shed so far I've been thinking that I need to scale back the main cabin from the 20x34 I had been thinking to maybe something like 16x30.  I picked up 3DHA and have come up with these floor plans for a 16x30 with a loft that is similar to Rob LeMay's 16x24 cabin in the country plans gallery. 

Main floor:



Loft:



I'd really appreciate any feedback people care to provide on these.  A point of clarification: the big rectangle to the right of the front door is a placeholder for a wrap-around booth-type dining set that I picked up at the local habitat for humanity.  It came with two benches that attach in a 90 degree orientation and a table.  There was no good way to depict this in 3DHA, so I just put a rectangular table there that is about the same size as the benches and table combined. 

Some other background that might be useful - this will be a vacation/weekend/getaway cabin for us.  Home is about 3.5 hours away.  The people who will be using it most often will be my immediate family- wife, son (3.5) and me.  My mother and mother-in-law will likely be joining us on occasion.  I'll also be using the place for fishing trips and hosting 4-5 guys. 

The 16x30 plan seems to accomplish everything I want out of a cabin, but there's at least one problem, the space between the dining area and the pantry (under the stairs) is tight.  It's about 3 feet, and this doesn't account for two dining chairs that would be on that side of the table.  I suppose I could leave the space under the stairs open, but there's not much other storage space in the cabin. 

For some reason a 16x30 cabin seems much more manageable in my head than a 20x34.  But maybe there's not that much difference?  Money is of course also an issue.  I'd like to do this all debt-free and right now  I've got about $15k ready to go and was hoping to do the shell with that and then pay as we go to do all the finish/fixtures/etc.  Obviously there are a ton of variables here, but am I kidding myself to think that a 16x30 could be dried in for $15k?  This would include a post and pier foundation.

I really appreciate any ideas/input/feedback folks care to provide on all this.

Thanks,

png

[Redoverfarm]

png I haven't looked at Rob's cabin but there is a couple of things I was wondering about.  Are you going to extend the sidewalls up above the standard?  I know with my 16' wide rooms that the kneewall is about 22" and it would be difficult to place a standard headboard bed that close to the wall either parallel or perpendicular as illustrate. 

Another is the outswing door on the kitchen side.  Normally a inswing is better and with the placement that you show either R or L would work.

It may be possible to expand one demension (either width or length) independently within your economics and gain a little more space for 1/2 of the extra cost. It might free up some valuable space and allow for some storage or clearance needed.  I am sure you have probably work that aspect out. 

BTW I will be making a trip to Johnson City in Mid March.  How far are you away?

[pickngrin]

I was planning on 10' studs - is that what you've used in your 16' wide rooms?  I don't know that we'll actually be using headboards for the beds, it is a cabin after all, but good to know that standard sizes probably wouldn't work as shown. 

I was thinking an outswing door would be better since it will be a bit tight on the inside.  I know this used to be a security concern, but the door I put on the shed is an outswing from Lowes and the hinge pins are flared or riveted at the bottom so they can't be driven out.  What are other reasons to consider the inswing door?

I was wondering whether or not going to 20x30 would be that much of a cost difference over 16x30.  I stretched my existing plan to 20x30 and that takes care of the issue of space between the dining area and pantry door.  I'm not clear on what you mean when you say "gain a little more space for 1/2 of the extra cost", but it sounds like you're suggesting the extra cost of going to 20x30 might be worth it? 

Home is about 5.5 hours from Johnson City and the mtn. property is two hours away. 

Thanks

[Redoverfarm]

I was planning on 10' studs - is that what you've used in your 16' wide rooms?  I don't know that we'll actually be using headboards for the beds, it is a cabin after all, but good to know that standard sizes probably wouldn't work as shown. 

I used 10' studs as well w/10/12 pitch.

I was thinking an outswing door would be better since it will be a bit tight on the inside.  I know this used to be a security concern, but the door I put on the shed is an outswing from Lowes and the hinge pins are flared or riveted at the bottom so they can't be driven out.  What are other reasons to consider the inswing door?

I think security is the main reason but it also prevents it by getting caught opening it in the wind and rain. Get inside a little quicker and and not be caught and ripped out of your hands in high wind.

I was wondering whether or not going to 20x30 would be that much of a cost difference over 16x30.  I stretched my existing plan to 20x30 and that takes care of the issue of space between the dining area and pantry door.  I'm not clear on what you mean when you say "gain a little more space for 1/2 of the extra cost", but it sounds like you're suggesting the extra cost of going to 20x30 might be worth it? 

No I was referring to 1/2 the cost of going the biggest plan you originally had.  Both demensions were 4 feet larger in both directions. What ever the expected cost of that additional 4 feet could be cut in half by just adding it to one demension.  No I didn't mean your total would be cut in half.  Nice try though .  I guess youi can run the #'s to determine what the extra expense would be. 14' rafter inside of 12' , so on. so on.

Home is about 5.5 hours from Johnson City and the mtn. property is two hours away. 

Some how I got it in my head that you were closer or that the cabin was closer.  Too many projects to keep up with in this board.

Thanks

[suburbancowboy]

I love the design.  It is very similar to what I plan on building except mine will be 36 feet long.  I wanted a little bigger living room.  Here is a link to my plans:

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6145.0

A couple of questions for you.  Are you going to use 2X4 or 2X6 studs for the walls?  Also what size of boards are you going to go with for the floor joists?

[pickngrin]

Redover - good point on the wind being an issue with an outswing door.  I noticed that in working on the shed the wind would catch the door and we had nothing to keep it propped open.  I'll have to think on that one a bit more. 

What!?!  You mean I can't cut costs by building a bigger cabin?  Aw, c'mon.  I see what you mean now.  If we were planning to take out a mortgage on the place then the added cost for an additional 4feet in width would probably result in only a minor increase to a monthly payment, but with a pay as we go model any added cost is felt immediately.  I guess I'm still leaning toward the 16' wide, but no holes have been dug so there's still time to change my mind. 

Suburbancowboy - glad you like the design.  You're right it is similar to what you're planning.  I'm planning to to 2x6 stud walls with the loft construction as shown in John's plans.  I haven't decided on what I'll use for floor joists.  Looking at the span tables in the Wagner Framing book it looks like 2x10s would work if I can get good material in my area.  I'm also planning to look into I-joists.  I assume they are a good bit lighter than 2x lumber, which is appealing since the work will be done by mostly my wife and me. 

So why are you thinking of going 16' wide instead of 20'?  I've read some of your thread and it looks like you'll have a pretty good crowd there.  I'm sure you know this, but 16x36 yields fewer square feet than 20x30.  I'm just curious to see how other's decision process compares to mine on this issue.  Great view you have at your property.  Sorry to hear about the fees and taxes - ouch!  We've got similar budgets to work with so it will be interesting to compare notes as things move along. 

If you haven't thought about getting the 3DHA software you might look into it.  I got it from ebay for less than $10 including shipping.  I found it really easy to figure out - and I am usually awful at this kind of thing.  In addition to the floorplan view it lets you quickly do 3D renderings.  Here's what I'm mulling over:

16x30:



or 20x30:



All it takes is money right? 

[suburbancowboy]

I came out with the same size for studs and floor joist as you did.  2X6 studs and 2X10 floor joists.  What are you going to do for a foundation?  I am going to go with a pier foundation, but I keep going back and forth between cemement piers and 6X6 pressure treaded posts.  Cement is twice the cost and time and labor as the other but I feel that it will last much longer.  I just don't want to ever have to replace them in my life time.

As far as my thinking on sizing I spent four months playing with various plans and sizes.  I then went to the hardware store to price out lumber.  I look at all the plans on this site.  I became a member of the planhelp.com sister site and downloaded all the 3dha plans and looked at them.  It all came down to one thing how can I get the most for the least amount of money.  I worked the numbers and the 20X30 was 30 to 40 percent more in cost than the 16X36.  The main factor came down to this.  Have you been to a lowes or home depot and seen any 20 foot long lumber?  So this means that you have to special order the lumber or overlap in the middle with extra beam running down the middle.  So that is why I decided to longer instead of wider.  Every thing will be on a smaller scale but it has everything that we need in it.

By the way I do have 3dha which I ran on my old laptop for a while but my new laptop has 64 bit vista on it and this program won't run on it.  I have other cad software that I am using but haven't finished the plans on it yet.  I will post them when I complete them.

Seeing that your design is so similar to mine I will ask you this question.  I have been thinking of moving the fireplace against the wall and running the chimney out the side to save on chimney pipe and then putting a fireman pole where you currently have the fireplace for the kids to come down.  What do you think of that idea?

[MountainDon]

  I have been thinking of moving the fireplace against the wall and running the chimney out the side to save on chimney pipe...

I'm not sure if you would save much on pipe that way?

If you do the conventional straight up thing, you use cheaper black pipe up to the ceiling and then transistion to the more expensive insulated pipe. If you go out the wall and then up outside you have a very long run of insulated pipe. Plus with virtually all the pipe outside in the cold it is slightly more likely to have occasional draft problems when starting up or under low fire conditions. That's not to say it won't work; there are cabins here with wall exits. Just something to think about. Remember the top of the chimney must be high enough above adjacent roof surfaces.

The rule for chimneys is that the chimney should extend at least 3' above the highest point where it passes through a roof, and at least 2' higher than any portion of a building within 10'.

[pickngrin]

SubCow - I'm planning on a pier foundation and planning to do poured concrete piers with some type of bracket cast in the top of the piers to carry the beams.  I'm with you - I don't ever want to have to mess with the piers again once they're in the ground.  I have no doubt that PT 6x6's would work, and I don't fault anyone for using them, it's just not the way I want to go. 

Interesting cost comparison between the 20x30 and the 16x36.  I really haven't started to price things yet so it's very helpful to hear from someone who has.  Right - no 20' lumber at the big box stores - at least not that I've seen.  But I'm hoping to go through a local lumber yard or saw mill to get most of the lumber.  I'm at least going to investigate that option.  Delivery will be a big issue for me as well.  If someone can deliver what I need, where I need it, when I need it then that will be worth a slightly higher overall price. 

I'm coming to the same conclusion on the 16x30 that I'm planning: it's got everything that I think we want/need it's just got a few tight spots.  If we went with the 20x30 we wouldn't be adding any extra rooms, just widening a bit, and at this point I don't think that's worth the extra cost. 

I think your kids would love the fireman's pole idea, but I think Mtn. Don is right in that you probably won't save any money on chimney pipe since the configuration you describe will have to have a longer run of insulated pipe.  We have a Jotul woodstove in our home and use it quite a bit.  The chimney is a straight run through the tallest part of the house.  It drafts incredibly well and absolutely never smokes.  After several years in our home using the stove is still a joy for me and I get a lot of satisfaction from heating with wood.  I want this to carry over to the woodstove in our eventual cabin and feel that anything other than a straight run of pipe through the tallest part of the house would increase the possibility of poor drafting and lots of smoke inside.  This would take away the joy of heating with wood for me so I don't want to risk that.  I know there are probably thousands of cabins and houses with woodstoves that have a wall exit chimney, and I'm sure they work well for some, it's just not a configuration that I think would work for me. 

[Redoverfarm]

Just another tid-bit about the flue placement.  With one toward the outside wall the flue pipe above the roof has to be so high to clear the ridge it will make it almost impossible to clean. Not to mention some sort of bracing especially if you have a 10/12 or 12/12 roof.   And yes they need to be cleaned an aspect of a lot of new 1st time wood burning people tend to overlook this annual maintenance.   

[MountainDon]

I couldn't locate this before...

[Redoverfarm]

PNG this is why I tried to stress the importance of a pitch diverter or something similar.  As you can see the "slide and stop" of the snow.  Unless there is a good bit of pitch on the lower roof the potential of ice-dam and thaw will allow the water to actually back up and then run down between.  I guess it depends on how much of the lower roof you can slide up under the main roof without something there.

[pickngrin]

It feels like it's been a really long time since I've posted an update, but only a couple months have gone by.  My wife, son, and I spent last weekend at the property and have what we used to call the "shed" almost finished. The building has now been christened, "The Cabinette". 



I wasn't real keen on paying $.97/apiece for railing balusters and we had a lot of grapevine hanging around so I put it to good use.  We camped out in the building last weekend and had a serious thunderstorm come through early Sunday morning.  It poured rain but the building and its occupants remained dry. 

I ended up using a piece of 12" wide rolled galvanized flashing as a makeshift pitch diverter between the main roof and the porch roof. It was a bit of a challenge to slide the flashing up under the main roof, but it worked out pretty well I think . . . time will tell. 

We spent a couple weekends up at the place since I last posted, including some chilly nights.  It was 33 inside the Cabinette one morning.  Kinda hard to get much sleep when it's that cold.  So I've been thinking about heating options and would appreciate others' opinions/thoughts on the subject.  Here are some options I'm considering:

1. We have an old parlor woodstove that has been in my family for probably 70-80 years.  Benefits here are it's free and we'd have an ample supply of wood at the property.  Disadvantage - it's really big and would take up a lot of usable space; it's probably overkill for an 8x12 building; and it's old, not airtight, and not EPA certified.

2. I really like the marine woodstoves here: http://www.marinestove.com/sardineinfo.htm.  I think they'd put out plenty of heat for our space.  Downside is even the smallest model, the sardine is $699, not including chimney pipe.  Seems kinda steep for this type of building. 

3. I've read about these Mr. Buddy Heaters, and the reviews on both Amazon and Cabelas are generally very positive, but I just can't quite get comfortable with the idea of a propane burning device inside an enclosed space - especially with the wife and young son sleeping there. 

4. Electric heating options?  We ran an electric resistance heater on the cold nights and they only heat up the area about 12" in front of the heater.  Also, we had it plugged into an extension cord (temporary power pole is about 50 ft from building) and the extension cord got really hot - kinda scary hot. 

Thoughts/suggestions?  I should also mention that the building is not insulated at all.  As I weigh heating options I'm also thinking about insulating and how to go about it.  Insulating the floor is the biggest question mark - not much space to crawl around under there. 

Finally  . . . here's a cool shot my wife took of a trout lilly poking through some still chilly ground in April. 

[ScottA]

Wow that looks great. Good place to spend a weekend I bet.