Spring Water for household supply

[jerseydave]

I was hoping to get some input from some of you that may have already encountered my situation, or atleast considered what I'm hoping to do.

My TN mountain property has a few springs on it. The previous owner told me that one is a year round spring and the others are seasonal springs.

He said the full time spring has been active since he was a kid 50 + years ago. But that it needs to be cleaned up a bit to increase the flow to what it used to be. The heavy growth has choked the main water stream off a bit and diverted some of the water to surrounding areas where it trickles is a few spots. I have a spring with a limited flow and a wet hillside surrounding it.

What I'm thinking of doing is removing the roots and such from the spring area and digging a reservoir pit below the renewed flow. I'll probably vertically sink a large diameter plastic pipe (24" or better) 10' or so in the ground under the spring feed.
A few feet from the bottom of this pipe I would plumb in a horizontal pipe (inch and a half or so) and bury it underground, running it 100 feet or so (slightly downhill) to where my initial cabin site will be.

This will give me a gravity feed off of a few hundred gallon reservior. I'll be building a "spring house" over the spring and reservior to protect it from run off and pests. I have plans of eventually adding a pump to the system when needed.

Anyone offer any ideas, input or suggestions?

[optionguru]

I'm glad you asked this because I have a similar situation.  My place is on a small lake but there are a few slow trickeling streams on the property.  The uphill reservoir seems to make more sense then pumping out of the lake.

[glenn kangiser]

I have a spring at the bottom of my property - used for years for cattle and in the gold miner days for horses and mules and just plain ol' living.  I found square nails at the site under up to a foot of dirt in burned pieces of wood -- that would put the time at before 1890 which is realistic for this area-- thousands of people here in the gold rush days.

The cattle ranchers put a rock and concrete box over the spring to protect it and ran a pipe out 30 feet down hill or so.  There was a old pull top aluminum can inside the spring box to muck it out with.  You may want to put in a diversion channel above the spring if necessary to divert runoff around it - helps to keep the bad stuff away.

My parents still live in the house I grew up in, in Oregon.  It has always had a spring that never failed.  They never did anything fancy about protecting it - a little better now.  In the old days a salamander got stuck in the pipe - slowed the water and made it taste funny for several weeks.

Sounds like you are on the right plan though.

Here is a picture of their spring now.

[Amanda_931]

The spring I use for drinking water is probably NOT a never failed one.   At least I quit using it when there's no visible flow, only a few puddles downstream.  We generally get enough rain so it works fine, especially if I get a week or two's worth of drinking water out when the getting is good.  We need rain now.

There is a big spring, two families used it, swear the water was good and never failed.  There were clues, which the backhoe guy and I ignored.  It's not a spring, but a seep, so trying to corral it in a tile doesn't work.  There are still nice little streams coming out of the hill--above and below the tile.  And there were other problems with that location.

Some friends who can never quite understand why their experience isn't everybody's have a near artesian spring well above the level of their house.  They doen't even need a pump, just extra large pipes, to get flow in the house--complete with dishwasher, washing machine, tub, shower, and flush toilet (of the airline kind).  I wish I could just run a pipe from the spring to the hill above the trailer.   Unfortunately, that's 25 or 30 feet down.  Ram pump would be iffy as well.  

Rain water or hoping for no dry wells if I drill are my best choices for non-drinking water.

[jerseydave]

I'm hoping when I clean out the area I can get a better flow from the spring.

Right now it's only about 1 gallon per minute. I have however visited the land under various weather conditions in all seasons of the year and that flow has been constant.

If worse comes to worse and I can't get a better flow I'll just install a larger reservior and perhaps even put a large storage tank in the cabin that I can run the pump off of. This way I'll be able to work off the storage tank in the cabin first, allowing the reservior to refill that. Using this method I'll increase my "gallonage" significantly.

[jerseydave]

Glenn is that spring the ONLY source of water to your parents home?

Is it used for drinking as well as all other water needs?

Has the water ever been tested for any contaminents or bacteria?

Is bacteria common in spring water supplies?

Am I asking too many questions?

Why is the sky blue?

[Amanda_931]

Our old water quality guy said that "all wells [and by extension, springs] in the area are contaminated with bacteria.  People get used to it."  Works for most of us.

On the other hand a neighbor who was refusing to follow my advice for rainwater and had already drilled one (of several) dry wells had the river water tested, and was told that he could just drink that.  Are we sure?  In the summer when there are people camped all the way up and down it?  And after watching Mr Sinclair's cows lounge about upstream in Moccasin Creek?

The cutest setup for water puification is the one from the Earthship<sup>t/_m people.  Don't have to think, just buy the board with everything already on it--it may be two boards.

It's right expensive, especially if you don't need everything.

Of course I can't find a link right now.</sup>

[jerseydave]

Amanda..... just where is "glamorous middle TN"?

My land is in Tazewell, Claiborne county. About 35 miles north of Knoxville, 14 miles south of Cumberland Gap.

[Amanda_931]

I guess the glamorous part is really Music City.  

(maybe--only maybe--especially if you didn't live there for almost 30 years)

I live down in the south-west corner of Middle TN about 50 miles north of Florence Alabama in Wayne County.

I know Middle Tennessee pretty well, a bit about West (mostly on the other side of the Tennessee River), next to nothing about the part in the eastern time zone.

[glenn kangiser]

Hey Dave -- I'm back-- Yeah - that ius the only water they drink and water the garden from.  There are 2 creeks within about 20 feet of the house also.  There is a seep behind the garage at the confluence of the two creeks.  Plenty of water there if they need more but no one has ever bothered to hook a pump to it because the spring has always put out enough.  

I have a well here at the underground complex that puts out 1 gallon per minute max.  It is still plenty of water for the garden.  We pump for 15 minutes every 2 hours 4 times per day in the summer time -- garden is on drip system so that is enough to take care of it.

Don't worry about the moss in the spring-- it tastes real good.  Actually the water is always clear coming into the house - except for the short time when they clean up the spring - maybe every few years.  They have never chlorinated it for any reason - even cleanup -that I know of.  I never get sick from the water there even if I only go there every year or two and drink it as it comes from the ground.

[optionguru]

I'm excited to hear about this uphill spring gravity feed water idea.  Does anyone have a link or an idiots guide on how to set it all up?

[T]

I know some folks that have put in full size wells (hundreds of feet) only to have a gallon a minute in the mountains.

Spring Boxes are common in WV. A lot of the older homesteads will have one up the Hill/Mountain from the homestead built of whatever material was avail in the day. Gravity does the rest. The building of a spring box isn't too technical.

http://peacecorps.mtu.edu/Springbox/design.htm

Today, I am told you may need to hit the water with some UV and to have the water tested regularly as well. Also there is a possible cleaning that may be warranted depending ever so often..  I think the key points is to lessen contaminants from the surface as much as possible which (based on design keeps this corrected). I too have a hillside 'seep' above the building area. It seeps in the summer and shoots up a couple inches from the surface during a day of rain or so. I am not real sure of the amount of flow but I think the holding tank size could make up for the rate of flow some bit. However, my need is based solely on drinking and washing and this is not a based on a full-time residence either so it may very well be a route I go. It is a cheaper than a full well system especially located up a mountain side.

My Grand parents place had nothing but an electric pump laid up in a spring and they would pump to a tank on the roof, plenty of water pressure.

[glenn kangiser]

As T says - nothing much special about a spring box.  Dads is the minimum and could be better but it works.  I have seen him use many a strainer made out of an old evaporated milk can with nail holes punched all over it.  They have added a pump on the line at the house to pick the pressure up but still have the original 7 lbs or so feeding the pump and still have water if the electricity is off.  Dad's spring seeps out of the mountainside from below a bunch of tree roots.  There is a creek right beside it but the water is kept separate.  The creek could be easily contaminated by animals.

Ideally if you can isolated the spring and put a box of sorts around it you will have a better time of keeping it clean.  Keeping runnoff uphill from getting into it is important.  Deer etc. may feed and relieve themselves directly  above it causing contamination to the water .  It only takes a few feet of soil to clean up contamination, but it needs to filter through it- not run over it so farther is better.  Try to be sure the only water you drink is lcoming from the spring.

Around here water channels through gopher holes also - I know of one that shoots out the side of the mountain in the winter but dries up in the summer.

Note that I am a well driller, and can tell you that all of your water in wells comes out of the ground.  From layers of sand, volcanics, rock fractures, fractured clay in sand etc.  No magic potion that produces clean water right out of the air -- for that go to rain water harvesting but the pollution washed out of the sky will be in that water.  This can include whatever nice thing the military is experimenting with spraying there too (per GAO- see pollution in the Sky- in off topics ).  Other options are drinking river or other surface water- with an unhealthy dose of their chosen antiseptic in it such as chlorine like many cities do.

[Amanda_931]

If you don't believe our now retired water quality guy (people get used to their wells/spring's bacteria), or if your next door neighbor is a grain only finishing feedlot for cattle, yes, then a double filter plus UV light is good.  But it must be filtered first--bacteria can get lost in very small bits of dirt and not get hit by the light.  The pre-assembled boards have a pump (maybe), two filters, and a UV light already plumbed, just hook to the inlet and output.

(three hours of collecting 1 gallon per minute would give you 180 gallons--even quite a small tank would give you wiggle room for when the pump breaks or the backhoe runs over your line.

(well water comes from the ground?  what a concept!     I agree, though that people really really seem to resist springs and rainwater harvesting in favor of the--possibly--higher tech wells.  We really do believe that technology trumps simplicity.)

[jerseydave]

Amanda,

I don't know what I said to give you the impression that I might not have believed you, but that isn't the case.
I'm just asking questions..... trying to learn.

After all, it makes perfect sense. You are always told "don't drink the water" when visiting certain places yet the locals have grown quite accustomed to it.

That said......... really now, how about some other opinions.......ya think it's ok not to treat the spring water for bacteria.....

LOL ....... JUST JOKING!

[Amanda_931]

Yep, at least sometimes "don't drink the water" makes sense when the locals are not bothered.  

But amoebic dysentery hits them too, I was told.

It did take me a couple of months to start drinking from my spring.  But even the fancy filtered stuff from Wild Oats still tastes like Nashville water.

And I really wish I had a never-failed uphill spring that would gravity feed through oversized pipes to a tank above the house.  The people I know who have this setup bought land that already had the pipe going a quarter of a mile to an uphill tank.

Luck, unfortunately, does play a part there.  The affordable, pretty, south-facing, perfect area that you already bought has a strong uphill spring.  Or you could not buy until you found all of the above--I'd think you might be in your nineties by then.

[phalynx]

Hey Jerseydave,

We are moving close to where you are after the 1st of the year.  We looked in Tazewell and New Tazewell and couldn't find property that seemed to fit.  Maybe we don't have all the area info.  We did fall in love with Sneedville.  The land around there is right up our alley.  Love it.

Scott

[ShawnaJ]

Our property is south of Crossville Tn.....up on the plateau at about 2000 feet, we also have several freshwater springs......our neighbors have wells....at 500 to 1000 feet down, that's expensive....but they don't have any springs either....just the small creek that is created from OUR springs..

So we are planning on using the spring box design and a ram pump to pump the water to a holding tank where it will be filtered.....also building a fence around the area to keep the deer and other critters out, but building them a pond farther downstream in a stone grotto so they will still have access to the fresh water....all we have to do to that is dam it up with some rocks to create a small watering hole...

[glenn kangiser]

Sounds like a good plan, Shawna.  You have enough flow to run a water ram?



http://www.theramcompany.com/drawing.html

Below is information from the listed site -

The Fleming Hydro-Ram
Despite the complex hydraulics of the Fleming Hydro-Ram, its operation can be outlined simply; first falling water from the source...a stream or artesian well...is funneled into a drive pipe connected at (A) until a necessary minimum volume is achieved. Water flows down the drive pipe until it reaches a specially designed poppet valve (B). At this point water escapes through the waste valve opening until it builds up enough pressure to seal the opening of the poppet.

Since the flowing water in the drive pipe can no longer escape through the waste valve opening, it is forced to open a mid-range inline check valve (C).


Water continues past the check valve and starts compressing the trapped air in the vertical compression chamber (D). Water continues to push against the air in the chamber until the compressed air cushion acts like a piston, pushing water back down and out of the air chamber.

This action, in turn, closes the one-way check valve causing water to be forced out of the ram and up the delivery pipe, which is attached at (E).

Meanwhile, the closing of the check valve creates a slight vacuum or suction which permits the waste valve poppet to drop open again. This allows water from the drive pipe to escape through the waste valve opening, creating a new cycle. There are about 60 such cycles per minute.


       

The Ram Company
1-800-227-8511 (Virginia)
512 Dillard Hill Road
Lowesville, VA 22967
Email rhfleming@theramcompany.com

Here is a picture of an antique one working from a ram collector and other information is at his web page.



http://dburger.tripod.com/

[Amanda_931]

Need both flow and head.  You aren't going to capture everything you run through the pipe to the ram pump, by the way.

One of the (two! that I know of) ram pump kings of Wayne County thinks that, at least after the winter rains, I have both, although the place that actually pumps the water (where there's enough head) might be just off the property.   This ram pump king has built his own so that it's quiet.  When I first moved down here, he was using an antique that gave loud clack everytime it sent water up to his tank.

But this time of year, I really don't.  I've got enough water to keep a few puddles in the little--not sure what it's called around here--stream, branch, creek, spring.   And, to get the flow, I'd have to do a bit of damming--and, I think covering--where the spring comes out of the hill.  And still have to de-silt the thing every couple of weeks.  After ruining that seep on the other edge of the property, I'm reluctant to dam this spring.

Shawna, you may have a ram pump king in your area as well.  Charge a hundred or so to put something together for you.

(Just don't let them use PVC pipe in any of its forms--CPVC or sewer pipe--to make up your pump.  Then it will have to be lifted from the water every time there's a bit more than a hard freeze.  We're coming close--the pretty white impatiens by the front door is completely gone, mimosa, and surprisingly, persimmon leaves are shot for the year).

[Amanda_931]

Somebody wants pressure meters on their ram pump?

Neither of the two local ram pump kings here do.  It either works or it doesn't.  To heck with metering.

Although one of the installations I know of is a long long long ways from the two houses it serves.  So it might help trouble shooting if there were at least one meter.  They have had some troubles with their installation--freezing, something put a hole in the long pipe, etc.  I think most of it is ironed out now.

[jerseydave]

SCOTT,

Small world, sneedville is probably 30 miles as the crow flies.

Haven't been there myself yet.

Who knows, maybe someday we'll meet up somewhere.

As far as not finding the right parcel in Tazewell...... everyones different, that what make life interesting.

I was looking for rural, mountainous, but not far off the beaten path.

I'm 3 miles from wal-mart, 5 from a small hospital, and 2 miles from river access right on my road. I like it.

Good luck.

[tc-vt]

Dave,

Good luck on having a chance to put in a gravity fed spring.  The point of my kind of long post here is to hire it out.  Here's why.

I was considering doing my spring myself by renting a mini excavator and probably a tractor to haul fill material.  I found the old spring at my place which I had heard was always a good spring when this was a farm years ago .  Three people dowsed it and all were impressed with the water in it.  Consider a dowser.  I have become a believer with the stories I have heard and my own experience though I wouldn't be able to find the Atlantic Ocean if I was standing on the beach.

I used a local excavator to do the job and don't regret a penny spent.  I paid about $1,000 for his labor (800 for the excavator for the day, 180 labor (his dad), 150 transport for the excavator).  The rest was materials.  Ask around to find an excavator with experience and knowledge developing springs.  They have the equipment to get the job done quickly.  I have heard that you can 'lose' a spring if you dig it wrong but don't know how much fact there is to this.

In one day he and his 60+ year old dad installed the spring with 4 tiles, stone fill and landscape fabric, ran 400 feet of plastic pipe to the house in a 4 foot deep trench (impossible with a rental machine), installed the curb stop at the house, dug and installed the 25 foot long curtain drain for the septic leachfield, dug a quick test hole for a potential pond site (I now have a 3 foot frog pond) and as per my request to 'just widen the driveway on your way out' widened 100 feet of the driveway a foot or two, digging out three boulders measuring 3 to 4 feet each.

If you hire someone think of other work you may want done while the big machine is there.  Make your driveway wider than you think you want it or need it or straighten out any tight turns.  It's especially a good idea in snow country.  A cement truck or a semi delivering trusses will suddenly make everything look really small.  A good size excavator can push over tress that you don't want to tackle with a chainsaw.  Dig a small pond.  Do drainage improvements.  Flip that parts car onto its roof so you can finally pull the axle out.  

Make sure surface water drainage above the spring is diverted away with a water bar above the spring to reduce surface water running into the spring tiles.  Have them run in a load of silt or clay to pack around the top of the spring as a seal to prevent surface water from creeping into the spring tiles (this wasn't done on mine yet).

My gravity feed gives me about 11 psi.  The 1-1/4 inch line from the spring runs to a curb stop near the house and then into the house.  Each 2.3 feet of head should give you 1 psi minus any friction losses.  I estimated the elevation of the spring above the house with a $20 sighting level from the hardware store.  My thinking is that there could be solids and fines that find their way into the line and may eventually obstruct flow at the bottom of the line here near the house.  If this ever happens I guess a settling tank of some kind would be a good idea.  

I have pictures of them installing the spring if you're interested.

Tom

[tc-vt]

Just read my post and what I meant to say was 'congratulations' on the opportunity to have gravity feed, not what came out sounding like sarcasm!

Tom

[jerseydave]

Tom,

Sounds like you've gotten a lot for your dollar. I wish I could say that I was even close to making that kind of progress.
My projects are still in the pondering stage.

I'd be very interested in seeing those pictures if it wouldn't be that much trouble. It might clarify my vision a little.

I hear what you are saying about hiring out the job, but it goes against my character completely.
I'm not saying in any way that I'm capable of doing a better job than a specialized contractor, but I am capable of doing the job (as I'm sure you were).
In fact I NEED to do the job.
I'm about as "hands on" as you can get.
I get more satisfaction out of working on a project, than the completed project itself.

I've worked as a machine operator years ago, so I SHOULD be able get into the swing of running the equipment without TOO much trouble.
I'm hoping to have access to the machinery since as it turns out, a long time family friend (who happens to be an excavating contractor by trade) bought land one county over from my "mountain".
Heck, with the amount of work I'll be needing to do if I work the land to its potential, I might even attempt to buy an old used dozer and backhoe for myself (the ULTIMATE toys).

I'm looking at this entire scenario as a chance to really get a new handle on DIY.

Thanks for the input, looking forward to the pix.

Dave