Umpteenth Framing Nailer thread

[Squirl]

So I'm starting to get the picture that time is money.  My weekend trips to my build cost around $150 round trip in gas and tolls.  I have always been reluctant to purchase a framing nailer, but if it saves me an entire weekend from start to finish on the house, then it might be worth it financially.
Believe it or not, I have always gotten a matter of satisfaction and enjoyment in hand nailing.  I don't know why.  I have operated a nailer before, but never much enjoyed it.

So I went looking to break down and buy a cheapo HF one ($70).  A few people on here have bought them.  I looked at the reviews, and they were horrible reviews.  This on HFs own website.

So I looked at the lower end Lowes brands.  Half do not shoot nails thick enough for code.  There are a few that do in the $200-$220 range (Hitachi, grip-rite, dewalt,  bostitch)  A handful of these reviews state there are lemons too.

I will be running a 4 gallon compressor. What further complicates things is my only power is a beat up old generator that is a pain to start and loud as can be.  I don't want to run this all day or have to start it every few minutes.  My fear is that I going to spend all this money on this one tool to be so aggravated keeping it powered that I am just going to go out and buy a bucket of nails.

Here are my questions.

From what I was reading I need a 21 degree nailer?  What is this?  Is it better/worse than others?
Are the HF nailers that bad?
Are the low end nailers at big box stores worth triple the price?

[AdironDoc]

My weekend trips to my build cost around $150 round trip in gas and tolls. 

$180 and 8 hrs total travel time here. Going to our cabins to work hard and for no pay. Why? Because the benefits package is awesome! 

[BADB0Y]

Have you considered cordless? The cost is a little more upfront, but the pay off is super! Around here you can get a used Paslode for about $150, and there really isn't anything to go bad on them except o-rings and seals. They can be rebuilt for about $25.

[hhbartlett]

I was just going to say Paslode myself for cabin building, specifically:
http://www.paslode-cordless.com/Cordless-Nailers/CF325/

No compressor or generator to worry about. And yes, you will thank yourself over and over for buying one. I got one last year when I built a deck, probably saved me about a weekend in nailing alone.

[Squirl]

No, I did not consider them.  They only shoot 3.25" nails.  3.5" is code.  Not to code is out.

http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_6_sec002_par005.htm

Also, like some of the other lower end nailers, the nails aren't thick enough.  Maximum width .131 code requires .135.

[hhbartlett]

No.  They only shoot 3.25" nails.  3.5" is code.  Not to code is out.

http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_6_sec002_par005.htm

Also, like some of the other lower end nailers, the nails aren't thick enough.  Maximum width .131 code requires .135.

Right you are, I guess for fencing and decks it's great though. You're going to need air power. Still, beats hammering. I suspect the cheap low end air nailers jam & misfire, or are hard to adjust which could be frustrating. I have an air framing nailer (branded Mastercraft, sold by Canadian Tire, no idea who made it) I got on "sale" for $99. It works OK. Be aware that if you're nailing a whole bunch in a row, it will use air like no tomorrow so your 4 gallon compressor will run steady. If you're really nailing fast you may have to stop and allow your compressor time to catch up.

[BADB0Y]

Ok, understood there. Next question would then be how often do you think you will use it once you finish your cabin? If you have steady use for it, then don't skip, go for a quality gun. The best budget option I know of is the 5 pc Campbell Hausfeld set: 21 degree round dead framing nailer; 2-1/2" 16 gauge finish nailer; 2" 2-n-1 brad nailer/stapler; Pin nailer; and Mini air palm hammer; and includes fasteners, case, nailer oil, additional trigger for framing nailer in order to switch from single action to rapid fire, Extra no-mar tips and hex wrenches.

It's also on sale right now for $199. I sell at least 2 of these every weekend and everyone loves them for light use.

[Squirl]

I don't currently have any plans after the house is built.  I am hoping to try my hand at some alternative building techniques (stone, post and beam, compressed earth) for the garage.  I checked the specs on the Campbell Hausfeld.  The max nail it shoots is .131 also.  The Hitachi on sale this weekend shoots up to .148.

Knowing what little I know of manufacturing, I would be willing to bet the master craft and many of the other under $100 nailers are all made out of the same factory with different nametags.

[Don_P]

All those guns are probably quite acceptable nailwise.

Power driven fasteners can be a headache for the inspector trying to enforce the letter. Basically a connection strength rather than a specific fastener is what is intended.
The old NER 272 was the report for interchanging nails, the newer reference (to my knowledge) is ESR 1539;
http://www.isanta.org/ESR-1539_corrected_Oct_09.pdf
It would be legacy to your code and no ESR is a guarantee of acceptance by the local authority so check with the Building Official before using it. Pg 22 is the beginning of framing specs and table 26 is typical interchanges to the code table.

Another way is the awc.org connections calc, again with approval of the local BO.

I typically frame with .131's and have to really stay on some suppliers to keep them in stock, most builders buy the cheapest wire they can and our inspectors don't normally look at the nails. Availability of a nail that will fit the gun, the ability to quickly run to the store and restock means the most to me. Ability to change depth of drive without tools is right on up there.

For me in most cases the rule of thumb is to typically shoot half again more than the table to get the strength intended, they call for 2, I shoot 3.

Framing, I can about keep up with a gun, sheathing the gun wins hands down. When it's real cold alot of air tools lay down unless really pampered, come prepared with hand drives. Well really always have them as backup, I have broken a hammer but not often  .

[Squirl]

 I went back and checked the HF nailer. Shoots up to a .131 fastener.  When you check their nails they say 10 gauge, which is .135.  I wonder why the difference?  True .004 of an inch shouldn't make or break a house.  The only person that would probably know would be me. 

The sheathing is probably what is selling me on this.  I am on a ridge which gets a bit of wind.  Nails are cheap.  I will probably go with one of the higher wind nailing schedules on the sheathing.

I was originally planning on framing the house in .148 and 1.205 galvanized ring shank nails for framing and sheathing.  So, Use thicker more pull resistant hand nails or shoot the hell out of it with smaller nails in a nail gun?

HHBartlett, where does the extra money go in building a house?

[hhbartlett]

I went back and checked the HF nailer. Shoots up to a .131 fastener.  When you check their nails they say 10 gauge, which is .135.  I wonder why the difference?  True .004 of an inch shouldn't make or break a house.  The only person that would probably know would be me. 

The sheathing is probably what is selling me on this.  I am on a ridge which gets a bit of wind.  Nails are cheap.  I will probably go with one of the higher wind nailing schedules on the sheathing.

I was originally planning on framing the house in .148 and 1.205 galvanized ring shank nails for framing and sheathing.  So, Use thicker more pull resistant hand nails or shoot the hell out of it with smaller nails in a nail gun?

HHBartlett, where does the extra money go in building a house?

Yep, exactly. Luckily I already own a proven air framing nailer (that does take a 3 1/2"). I must have gotten a good deal on it, the regular price is $250. To your point of where money goes, I remember buying a box of nails for my brand new nail gun, just about fell over when she said it was $85 a box (can't remember exactly what they were now).

[Don_P]

Galvy or ACQ's can run up there. Hand drives or with a palm nailer are cheaper in some of those cases.

Yes, more smaller fasteners or fewer large ones, the extremes would be gang nail plates (tons of little teeth) or 1" bolts (the largest bolt you should ever see in wood).

[aktundra]

I too am looking for a framing nailer, so I can't give you any specific guidance, other than I have been looking at a couple refurbished guns on these tool website that save you a couple bucks. I have bought from Toolking before. Great site and great products. I ordered a refurbished welder that's worked flawlessly.

I was going to buy a refurbished PC (FR350A) but Amazon's prices went up (was $120) so I'm waiting.

http://www.toolking.com/bostitch-f21pl-factory-reconditioned-framing-nailer
http://bigskytool.com/Framing_Nailers___c340.aspx

Would be interested to here what nail gun you end up getting and how it works. Off grid building certainly poses its challenges (i.e. can my generator handle this tool- can my compressor handle this gun! )

Best of luck

[flyingvan]

I bought the pancake compressor and framing nailer set from Northern Tools online.  They've been great and I haven't used the paslode since.   Get a palm nailer too (about $20) most awesome tool ever

[Squirl]

Ok, I have a few more questions.  I appreciate everyone's patience.  I have been using hammer driven nails my whole life.  When you go to the aisle in the hardware store, there is one brand.  They take up the whole aisle.  Nails are sold in standard sizes and thicknesses.  All are too or over code requirements in there lengths and thickness.  Then I went to the framing nail section, all the nails are just a little shorter and thinner.  To quote an old commercial, where's the beef?
The largest full head nail I could find for a 21 degree nailer was 3 1/4" at and then the nails for sheathing jump are 2"-2-3/8".  Don, I can see what you are saying about shooting some thin wire.  Most of the nails were .99 thickness for sheathing or .120 for framing. Almost a full wire gauge smaller than required for code nailing schedules.  I shopped around for a while for nails.  So my obsession with a nailer that shoots over .131 thickness nails was a waste of time.  The nails are almost unheard of.

So far I have only found two sources that sell full round head 21 degree nails in full 2 1/2 inch and 3-1/2 inch.  Fastenal (I have a relative that works there) and (believe it or not) Harbor Freight.

Now that I got that rant out of my system.

Has anyone used a 22 degree nail in a 21 degree nailer?

I read a lot of horrible reviews of the HF nailer with HF nails.  I don't know if it is the nails or nailer. Has anyone used the HF nails in another nailer? 

[Don_P]

Has anyone used a 22 degree nail in a 21 degree nailer?

I can't say for sure but off spec nails are a nightmare for jamming the gun.

I have nothing against modified round heads, don't get a clipped head gun (if they are even available anymore)

Generally .148's ( the same dia as a 16d sinker) are a west coast need for seismic. High pressure compressors and guns are becoming the norm for those. Kind spookey to me. When I worked in shops we ran high pressure lines and then broke it down at each work station. Our nail gun repair guy came in and someone in another shop had plugged a gun into the high pressure line, it killed him. I'd hate to have any possibility of a mixup on a job.

[hhbartlett]

I can't say for sure but off spec nails are a nightmare for jamming the gun.

I have nothing against modified round heads, don't get a clipped head gun (if they are even available anymore)

Generally .148's ( the same dia as a 16d sinker) are a west coast need for seismic. High pressure compressors and guns are becoming the norm for those. Kind spookey to me. When I worked in shops we ran high pressure lines and then broke it down at each work station. Our nail gun repair guy came in and someone in another shop had plugged a gun into the high pressure line, it killed him. I'd hate to have any possibility of a mixup on a job.

The part in bold; why not? What's the problem with clipped head nails? I ask because I own one. This one, to be specific:
http://www.canadiantire.ca/AST/browse/6/Tools/1/CompressorsAirTools/PneumaticFasteningTools/PRD~0588434P/Mastercraft+3-in.+Framing+Nailer.jsp?locale=en

[Squirl]

Thanks for the heads up about the .148.  I won't expect to find them around here then. So far the only one I was able to find around here that was larger than a .131 was a .162 (8 gauge).  I'd love to see the gun that shoots it, but I'm sure it is out of my price range.  I am looking for the full round heads.  I read clipped heads were banned in a few locations. I heard nothing about them being banned locally, but I am not in a severe weather area (high wind or seismic).  Because I know my exact location will have some high winds, going with a high wind nailing schedule and skimping on the nail heads seams a little silly for me to do.

My relative at Fastenal told me he would get back to me about the nail compatibility.  Apparently there is usually only 1 company or factory that makes all the nails.  They slap a dozen different name brands of gun manufacturers to up the price.  I believe it is the parent company of grip rite (PrimeSource Building Products, Inc.?).  They know exactly which nails work in which guns.

[Squirl]

From what I read, that without a full head, at current nailing schedules, in severe weather, the nails aren't holding on.  Added to the overdriving that is typical with a nail gun, the nails can pull through the sheathing.  Many areas that are in severe weather such as high wind and seismic areas have already banned them.  Due to this, many nailers now shoot both.  There is an expectation that they will be adopted as completely banned at some point. 

Some things can only be learned over time.

[hhbartlett]

From what I read, that without a full head, at current nailing schedules, in severe weather, the nails aren't holding on.  Added to the overdriving that is typical with a nail gun, the nails can pull through the sheathing.  Many areas that are in severe weather such as high wind and seismic areas have already banned them.  Due to this, many nailers now shoot both.  There is an expectation that they will be adopted as completely banned at some point. 

Some things can only be learned over time.

Learn something new every day on this forum.

[flyingvan]

The framing nailer I use from Northern Tools can be adjusted to various angles

[MountainDon]

I've never used a cheap air nailer. I have used cheap nails in my old Senco and Bostitch tools. But I had sort of the same luck I had when I tried refilled brand x inkjet and toner cartridges.

[Squirl]

Thank you all for the advice.  I bought the Hitachi nailer.  It was on sale and I had a 10% off coupon.  I just didn't want to risk it jamming and throwing off my whole build.  Plus I can return it in 90 days if I think it is junk.  It is probably the most expensive tool I had ever purchased.  It worked fine.  I can shoot about 10 nails before the compressor goes.  When I am nailing I have to run the generator.  I have to wear ear plugs so I can't listen to the radio anyway.

I bought the HF nails.  They work fine and I didn't have one jamb in the 1000 or so I shot this weekend.  I'm glad I went with the extra length.  It came in handy when toe nailing to straighten warped wood.

[Don_P]

I guess I feel kind of obligated to throw in warnings and wet blankets... A gun shoots faster than a hand drive so think before squeezing the trigger. I've most often been tagged by nails in one of two ways. Pulling something tight and having my hand directly behind where I'm shooting, the nail pokes thru and there you are. The second is having the nail deflect while it is driving and coming out somewhwere other than intended, and there was my hand again. The easy way to avoid either is to make sure your hand is further away from the gun than the length of the driven nail, plus a little bit. Sounds stupid, but then I haven't had a intelligent accident yet  .

[Squirl]

I admit that was one of the reasons I generally avoided them.  With my thumb saver, I have had no serious injuries with a hammer.  I lost a thumbnail once years ago, but that was the extent of it.  I've seen a lot of people shot with some nails.  One day to the hospital would cost more in time and money than the thing would be worth.  I try to avoid grabbing anything within 5 inches of the front.  Most of the time, I try to keep both hands on the gun.  Like when I was end nailing the rim joist after the first nail in the joist, there was no reason to keep holding the joists, so I just held the gun with both hands.