Healthcare bill about to pass

[fishing_guy]

Don't forget those who are healthy enough/willing to take a risk that they CHOOSE not to buy insurance.  They are now REQUIRED to purchase insurance.  If that isn't a forced tax increase, I don't know what is.

Also don't forget that much of the savings is "hidden" in increased taxes on medical device makers and insurance companies.  I'm sure they'll just eat that...

We put a 2 1/2% tax on all things medical here in Minnesota to pay for the health care pool...Now it's a forgotten tax.

[archimedes]

Don't forget those who are healthy enough/willing to take a risk that they CHOOSE not to buy insurance.  They are now REQUIRED to purchase insurance.  If that isn't a forced tax increase, I don't know what is.

You mean the people who choose to not have insurance and then get sick and show up at the emergency room and get health care for free?  It's estimated that every American, who has healthcare, pays an additional $1000 annually on their health insurance premium to cover the uninsured.  Why should the rest of us have to pay for these "rugged individualist" deadbeats?  If they don't get sick it's just fine, if they do get sick, we all have to pay for them.  Their just like the bankers, "heads I win tales you lose"

[Pox Eclipse]

do you have a "right" to something free because you need it? thats the question.

Are you under the mistaken impression that this bill provides free health care to anyone who wants it?

[archimedes]

BM:

Every person I've heard in favor of the health care bill expects that it will personally help them.  I've yet to meet a perfectly healthy, employed and insured person who likes it.  Proponents are "in it for themselves" with no regard to the damage that it will do to America.  

Well what's the point to healthcare coverage that only covers the healthy?    Isn't that the point here?  That the insurance companies have been canceling , or refusing to cover, people who are sick.

You could, in a heartbeat, become one of those people without insurance and a preexisting condition - then what would you do?  I think you would be singing a different tune then.

I luckily have very good insurance coverage.  I am neither liberal or conservative.  Neither Democrat or Rebublican, but listening to this national debate it seems that too many people are wedded to a political ideology (on both sides) rather than being opening to reasonable solutions to the problem.

Best of health to you all!

[peternap]

The real show is starting...Go Get em Ken!
UPDATE 1-Virginia to sue U.S. over healthcare reform
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN2219276420100322

[fishing_guy]

Don't forget those who are healthy enough/willing to take a risk that they CHOOSE not to buy insurance.  They are now REQUIRED to purchase insurance.  If that isn't a forced tax increase, I don't know what is.

You mean the people who choose to not have insurance and then get sick and show up at the emergency room and get health care for free?  It's estimated that every American, who has healthcare, pays an additional $1000 annually on their health insurance premium to cover the uninsured.  Why should the rest of us have to pay for these "rugged individualist" deadbeats?  If they don't get sick it's just fine, if they do get sick, we all have to pay for them.  Their just like the bankers, "heads I win tales you lose"

People like me that WHEN we go to the doctor, it's like starting over again.  I've been to the doctor a total of 5 times since I've turned 18.  I've had one operation(shoulder) and 2 rounds of physical therapy.  Never been to the ER in my life.....
I'ld be much better off just paying cash for those visits (and even the operation).

[muldoon]

Are you under the mistaken impression that this bill provides free health care to anyone who wants it?

Thank you Pox, I could not have said it any better.  This is not about healthcare, everyone in this country has healthcare available to them.  If you get hurt or sick you can go to the emergency room now.  They will treat you.  This is not about healthcare, it is about health insurance.  Now anyone can purchase heath insurance, in fact not only can you, it would be mandatory. 

I dont know what the bill says, it was 2300 pages and from what I can gather it ballooned up to 4000 pages at the end.  I doubt anyone anywhere knows exactly what all it has in it just yet and I dont see the need to argue about the details with the people here on this forum about it.  Wile we may disagree on the approach here, my argument is not with the people who will benefit from this bill and their support of it.   It's expected that those who will directly benefit from the subsidy will support it and those that will directly lose from the subsidy will oppose it. 

Those who will sit at the top and collect the skim while letting the others fight amongst themselves are the problem. 

[Txcowrancher]

Yes Pox eclipse
the bill will add some 15 million people to medicaid, as well as provide taxpayer money to millions of others to help pay for their insurance. half of the country pays no income tax now and the other half wants more freebies, this has to stop.
we must reconsider what is a "right"
is free food a "right" if I am hungry?
is free water a "right" if I cant pay my water bill?
is free medical care a "right" if I have no money?

food seems more basic than a doctor

does a person have a "right" to anything that must be taken from another person?
Tom

[peternap]

Are you under the mistaken impression that this bill provides free health care to anyone who wants it?

   It's expected that those who will directly benefit from the subsidy will support it and those that will directly lose from the subsidy will oppose it. 

Those who will sit at the top and collect the skim while letting the others fight amongst themselves are the problem. 

That's not quite true Muldoon.
Despite the fact that NO ONE really understands it, on the surface, I'd be one that should directly benefit. The few times I have gone to the Doctor, I gave a false name and information. That way my insurance company wouldn't know I was diabetic or had heart problems. It also means I can't get treatment or prescriptions.

I have major med only. I also have medical directives notarized and in my wallet to not even bother putting the plug in and if they do, pull it.  A long stay in the hospital will bankrupt the surviving spouse quickly.

The reason? If my wife becomes sick, I want insurance to cover it and they won't if they cancel us because of me.

Why do I oppose it?
The reasons can go on for hours, but the biggest can be explained with the seat belt laws.
I always wore a seat belt....until they passed a law saying I had to. I haven't worn one since.

The Government isn't going to dictate how I live my life!

[pagan]

peter,

Suicide is against the law. 

[peternap]

peter,

Suicide is against the law. 

There's a lot to be said about that...but

Suicide is suddenly taking your life. Not going on your own terms, naturally.

When you're born, the only certain thing you have is that you're going to die. What you do in between those two dates is what separates the sheep from the wolves.
I've spent too much time sitting in hospital rooms, watching someone I love who is more dead than alive, just marking time until their heart stops.

It's a choice everyone has to make on their own but no one named OBAMA's going to make it for me.

[pagan]

Most of the people I've met who attempted suicide took their time, thought it all out, and planned the taking of their lives. There was nothing sudden about it, just that nobody saw it coming.

How is going out naturally being on your own terms? This is an honest question and I want to know what you're thinking is here.

I've seen people go out with cancer and I agree with you about watching them waste away in a hospital just waiting to die.

I think you missed my point. You said you stopped using a seatbelt because a law was passed mandating you use your seatbelt, so you stopped using it as a silent protest against the government dictating how you live your life. I pointed out that suicide is illegal, yet you haven't killed yourself. It was a little joke about you picking which laws you'd obey and which ones you'd break.

I see no wisdom in refusing to use a seatbelt, a device that's proven to save lives, simply because you don't like the government mandating its use by law. You can disagree with a law but still "obey" it simply because it makes sense, like wearing a seatbelt. Disagreeing with a law is fine, but putting yourself at risk in some protest is foolish.

[peternap]

I think you missed my point. You said you stopped using a seatbelt because a law was passed mandating you use your seatbelt, so you stopped using it as a silent protest against the government dictating how you live your life. I pointed out that suicide is illegal, yet you haven't killed yourself. It was a little joke about you picking which laws you'd obey and which ones you'd break.

I see no wisdom in refusing to use a seatbelt, a device that's proven to save lives, simply because you don't like the government mandating its use by law. You can disagree with a law but still "obey" it simply because it makes sense, like wearing a seatbelt. Disagreeing with a law is fine, but putting yourself at risk in some protest is foolish.

There are a lot of things that are inherently unsafe. I climb, I kayak, I hunt and I fish. All have their own dangers. I suppose you could decide to stay inside all the time and live a little longer. Sunlight causes cancer you know.

Wisdom has very little to do with some of my decisions. Yes, a sealtbelt could save my life....but no I won't be told to wear one.

I do wear a vest when Kayaking and canoeing. No one's telling me I have to wear it, just that I have to have one on board.
I don't wear blaze orange when hunting.
I do use a static line when possible, when climbing.

I really don't expect you to understand it either. Some people will and some won't.

Just like some people hail the health care plan as the second coming and some of us see it as a way to keep us on a leash.

A little story that again, some will understand and others won't. My first year in military school was when I was 11 years old.

There was a fellow named Fitzgerald who was 17 and a big fat slob. He bullied all the younger Cadets constantly and if you said anything about it, he'd beat them up. I was told to just keep quiet and he's leave you alone. One day he decided he wanted me to shine his shoes. That was a favorite task he had the Cadets do. I tossed them out in the courtyard and he came storming in the Barracks. Everyone was telling me to just shine the shoes and he'd leave me alone. One Cadet offered to do it for me...just so he'd leave me alone.

Knowing full well I was going to get my butt kicked, I hit him square in the head with a field hockey stick and got my butt kicked....But you know what, after that, he left me alone.
It's all in how you choose to live!

[NM_Shooter]

Well what's the point to healthcare coverage that only covers the healthy?    Isn't that the point here?  That the insurance companies have been canceling , or refusing to cover, people who are sick.

Is that a serious question?  You understand how insurance works...right?  They make money betting that a person won't need coverage.  If it were any way else, why buy insurance unless you were sick?  What company would wait until a person is sick to get $400 a month when that person needs a $60k operation?

They need to operate on the free market, with little gov't influence.  You either buy their services, or you don't.  Mandating who they must accept and what price they can charge is none of the damn business of anyone outside of their office.... especially the feds. 

I've said it before... I have great insurance and yet crappy health care.  The problem is NOT insurance.  This health bill will not fix health care.  It is specifically designed to create dependency, and to expand the power of the federal gov't.  A very, very bad thing.

[peternap]

Well what's the point to healthcare coverage that only covers the healthy?    Isn't that the point here?  That the insurance companies have been canceling , or refusing to cover, people who are sick.

Is that a serious question?  You understand how insurance works...right?  They make money betting that a person won't need coverage.  If it were any way else, why buy insurance unless you were sick?  What company would wait until a person is sick to get $400 a month when that person needs a $60k operation?

They need to operate on the free market, with little gov't influence.  You either buy their services, or you don't.  Mandating who they must accept and what price they can charge is none of the damn business of anyone outside of their office.... especially the feds. 

I've said it before... I have great insurance and yet crappy health care.  The problem is NOT insurance.  This health bill will not fix health care.  It is specifically designed to create dependency, and to expand the power of the federal gov't.  A very, very bad thing.

There's another side that no one's said anything about. There is a very real probability that this will make insurance rates go up for those of us that have it. If that happens and it goes up by any real degree, I won't be able to keep mine. I never get tax refunds so the IRS can go holler fish. I ain't paying a fine.

That's a great plan the Dem's came up with.

[NM_Shooter]

There is a very real probability that this will make insurance rates go up for those of us that have it.

Absolutely.  Premiums either have to go up, or the insurance companies will go bankrupt.  And since the gov't is planning on regulating premium costs, that means we are all going to be out of luck with private insurance companies.  We'll all end up in the single payer system, just as initially wanted by the socialists.   

[astidham]

Its times like this I'm happy thePUBLIC library already exist.
How many people who are complaining about this reform is drawing social security?
How many people who are complaining about this reform have children that go to Public schools?
How many people who are complaining about this reform drive on highways?
these are things people were against but enjoy the benifit of now.
instead of listening to glen beck, or what limbaugh told you to believe, why not investigate the facts and form an educated opinion.

[peternap]

Its times like this I'm happy thePUBLIC library already exist.
How many people who are complaining about this reform is drawing social security?
How many people who are complaining about this reform have children that go to Public schools?
How many people who are complaining about this reform drive on highways?
these are things people were against but enjoy the benifit of now.
instead of listening to glen beck, or what limbaugh told you to believe, why not investigate the facts and form an educated opinion.

I'm really enjoying some of these arguments. I can't say about everyone but...
I don't have a Library Card.
I don't get Social Security and never will.
My kids didn't go to Public Schools
I do drive on the Highways and wish they didn't exist. Especially Interstates.
I know Glen Beck personally and I don't think he even takes himself literally and I think Limbaugh is a fat blowhard.

And

I still think Health Care sucks and have read it. If you can make an educated opinion out of that useless congratulation of nonsense, you need to run for King yourself.

[NM_Shooter]

No social security for me.  Probably be BANKRUPT by the time I need it due to gov't mismanagement.  A fine example of me paying thousands of dollars every year so that somebody else can strip it out. 

All those other things, along with the armed forces, provide benefit to all Americans. 

Forcing an American to pay for healthcare entirely used by another individual is purely socialist, and not part of what made America great.

Do you really think anything more than a minority of people were against public schools? 

(educated opinion?   )

Even if you don't use the roads or interstates, many of the goods and services we consume only exist in our markets because of them. 

[astidham]

Peternap, what are scupturings?

[pagan]

NM_Shooter,

I agree, premiums must go up, or the government will need to subsidize more heavily, especially once insurance companies are forced to accept the unhealthiest people out there. The reason insurance companies refuse them is because they cost more than they bring in, and these people tend to have chronic, very expensive, health problems. I personally know of an individual whose medical costs are $4,800 per month. He's never worked, never will, and he's totally dependant on the public. What insurance company in the universe would accept him?

[peternap]

Peternap, what are scupturings?

You need to ask Del Gewe..(with an E) he and Jeremiah Johnson (whose real name was John) came up with that.

[archimedes]

NM_shooter.
Your post are so full of inaccuracies and twisted logic that it would take too long to rebute them all.  You have taken an ideological stance to every point related to healthcare even when the facts and logic are against you.  You obviously have an anti-gov't obsession that causes you to view eveything through that prism.  And that's your right.  But it impairs your ability to see that sometimes gov't action can be useful if used in a limited way.  You also fail to see that the power of corporations is as great a threat to our freedom as is gov't overreaching.  How else can the abuse of power by corporations be constrained,  if not by the people through their gov't?  It's fine to be for the free market when the playing field is fair.  But that is not what exists today.  And the free market in this case hasn't, and can't fix it.

We currently have a completely free market now - and what a mess.  Health insurance companies are even free of anti-trust laws, unlike almost all other industries.  It is the lack of regulation, and the lack of real competition due to the failure of the free market that got us in to the mess we are in now.

If the free market, as it relates to healthcare,  works so well, why are insurance costs here double what they are in the rest of the world?  Overseas, markets are much more regulated or insurance is provided through a publicly financed system. And they have the same or better outcomes, at a fraction of the cost.  You can't tell me that our healthcare is twice as good as the rest of the world.

Conservatives love when the gov't does something they like.  The minute it does something they don't like, they call it socialism.

[glenn kangiser]

ObamaCare To Be Enforced
By IRS 'Bounty Hunters'



http://www.rense.com/general90/ohh.htm

[SardonicSmile]

There are too many problems in the USA for this greedy attitude to go on any longer. If you make a decent amount of money, you should be forced to help or given the boot. Keep in mind that this isn't a new idea.. our taxes were going to the poor way before this point.


You don't want 5% of your 40K salary going to help people who need it? Why? Apparently the sincerely needy people don't deserve our help because there are a few slackers out there.