Why can't we fix healthcare?

[Pox Eclipse]

Name one thing the government has ever done cheaper or better than the private sector.

The Interstate Highway System.  Does this mean I win?

Anyone who puts their hands deeper in my pocket should expect to lose them at their neck.

I wish you had that kind of passion for the insurance companies.  They're stealing you blind.

[Virginia Gent]

Actually, the best paved roads I've seen have always been private ones; they always seem to be maintained better, that includes the landscaping around them. I-95 & I-64 here are crap, as are most of the roads the Feds and State are responsible for around here. I give the Counties credit, however, for doing a better job at maintaining most of their roads. Also, the Feds like to use the Interstate System funds to blackmail states into doing things they want. The drinking age is one example.

4. Make it impossible to sue a doctor or nurse for malpractice. If they do something wrong charge them criminaly and let a jury decide.

5. Put a stop to the ER free clinic system.

6. Educate people not to go the ER for every sniffle.

I like those!

[pagan]

We cannot fix healthcare because our elected "leaders" grant themselves the finest benefits in the world while denying those same benefits to everybody else. The quickest way to fix healthcare is to put every elected politician into Medicare.

[NM_Shooter]

Just for fun I'm going throw out my solution. This is simplified for the sake of time.

1. Pass a law that no insurance company or parent company of an insuance company can own any intrest in a hospital, doctors office, drug company etc.. Also remove the trade restrictions on insurance.

2. Remove the lawyer like licencing system that doctors have and replace it with a standard test for each field. Allow nurses more power to treat minor illness.

3. Eliminate the mountain of regulations that doctors and hospitals must comply with.

4. Make it impossible to sue a doctor or nurse for malpractice. If they do something wrong charge them criminaly and let a jury decide.

5. Put a stop to the ER free clinic system.

6. Educate people not to go the ER for every sniffle.

I like these as well.  #4 would be tough though, as in some instances docs do horrible things that result in personal injury.  I don't know how to keep the crap lawsuits out though.

On #5, maybe we need to have some sort of triage person at the front door who boots those who do not have emergency issues.  I took my 10 month old baby to the ER on a Sunday; she was running a 104 temp and had discharge from her left ear.  We had to wait 6 hours to be seen, and I was livid that there was a kid who had spilled elmer's glue on his back who got seen before her.  After 2 hours, I called my wife to bring Tylenol and washclothes, and we were able to get her fever down to 101 but she was still screaming.  Longest 6 hours of my life.  I was ready to strangle someone.

[Woodsrule]

The Obots declared that this "Crisis" had to be acted upon by August 1st or else. When good Americans stood up to this lunacy, all of a sudden the "Crisis" ceased to exist. Also, the Obots once stated that 46 million folks had no health insurance, but I heard the president state 30 million during one of his many speeches. No matter; they are now proposing draconian measures to force you to toe their line. Don't want to buy health INSURANCE? No problem, simply fork over a fine to us! What's next, a fine for not buying life Insurance? Why not? Are we not entitled to life insurance, car insurance, blanket coverage insurance, house insurance, free food, free housing, free heat, free electricity, and anything else we can think of?   

I have read here and elsewhere that other countries love their mandated health insurance. I don't know who you are talking to, but my many relatives in Canada hate it. They come over the border for cardiac care and eye care on a regular basis. One of my relatives needed a knee surgery. The govmint told him that he could have it - in 9 months! He needed to get back to work now, so he crossed the border a paid a few grand for it. It was more economically feasible for him to do so due to the RATIONING.

[MountainDon]

Website of interest...


http://healthcare.procon.org/

[MikeC]

"It is amazing that people who think we cannot afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, and medication somehow think that we can afford to pay for doctors, hospitals, medication and a government bureaucracy to administer it."
--Thomas Sowell

For those who believe  rapacious insurance companies are driving the increases of healthcare, you might investigate the most profitable industries.  For 2008, healthcare insurance companies placed at #35, well below Pharma @ #3, Medical Products & equipment @#4, Health care @#30 and so on.

available here:
http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2009/performers/industries/profits/

The reason YOUR medicare costs so little is the same reason MY health insurance costs so much - I am subsidizing your healthcare since medicare often does not pay the actual cost.  Which brings us to the real cost driver - government involvement.  There is virtually nothing one can do in medicine without the current involvement of government bureaucracy - many, many layers.  From training to certification to waiting room to treatments the overwhelming problem IS government - all useless activities that PRODUCE NOTHING but unnecessary cost and wasted time.  Consider the three areas which increase in cost the most, year after year - public "education", healthcare, and government in general.  The cost driver is government involvement - there is no free enterprise in healthcare or health insurance.

Solution #1
Get government out of this field.



Now, compounding this is the foolish expectation that insurance be virtually no cost while paying for everything, from hangnails to open heart surgery to "gender reassignment".  We would not be able to afford car insurance that paid for oil changes, new tires etc.  Or home insurance that paid for painting, gutter cleaning etc. It is not reasonable to expect that insurance be anything but what it was originally intended, to indemnify oneself against catastrophic heath care cost.

solution #2
People MUST pay their own way for routine care - only through this way will cost be driven from the system.  Would you bother checking the cost of a meal if you knew insurance was going to pay the tab?


"America's health-care problem is not that some people lack insurance, it is that 250 million Americans do have it." - John Stossel

[Sassy]

Other things I see raising the cost of healthcare are free treatment for illegal aliens - of course they are not going to consider the cost, since they aren't going to pay for it.  Another is those on public assistance don't give a 2nd thought about calling an ambulance for anything from a pain in a finger to wanting to be seen by a doctor for a minor problem & don't have transportation...  so they call an ambulance to bring them to ER.  We also have an extremely high number of patients who are alcoholics who are brought in on a regular basis because someone saw them weaving along the streets in an erratic manner - we provide a bed in ER, give them a "banana" bag (IV fluids w/folate, multivitamins & thiamin - alcohol depletes the body of these nutrients & also dehydrates).  We let them sleep it off & offer detox, usually they don't want it & leave AMA (against medical advice), only to return again by ambulance, sometimes the same day/night.  Others come to ER for minor problems that should have been taken care of by a regular MD on an appt basis but they don't want to wait for a couple days for an appt.

There is such an "entitlement" mentality in our country.  You are correct, MikeC on what you said. 

Other problems that have been mentioned are the pharmaceutical companies advertising their drugs making everyone think they need the newest thing.  Everyone thinks they need to be seen for every minor problem...  what did our grandparents, even our parents used to do?  Most rarely ever went to a doctor except for major problems, just dealt with it & tried home treatments.  Like Homegrown, who finally went in to the doctor because she was so sick for so long & nothing she had tried, worked.  The media has taught us that a doctor needs to see us for every little ache & pain, every sniffle & sneeze, every little cut & scrape, if we are feeling a little blue - there's a treatment or a pill to fix all our ills & they all cost lots of money & have their side effects.

[MountainDon]

House Dems reach deal on key health care elements

House Democrats reached agreement Wednesday on key elements of a health care bill that would vastly alter America's medical landscape, requiring virtually universal sign-ups and establishing a new government-run insurance option for millions.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi planned a formal announcement Thursday morning, but details were still being finalized, lawmakers and aides said. Officials said the legislation could be up for a vote on the House floor next week.

The rollout would cap months of arduous negotiations to bridge differences between liberal and moderate Democrats and blend health care overhaul bills passed by three separate committees over the summer. The developments in the House came as Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nev., tried to round up support among moderate Democrats for his bill, which includes a modified government insurance option that states could opt out of.

Reid met Wednesday with Arkansas Sen. Blanche Lincoln, who faces a potentially tough re-election next year.

The final product in the House, reflecting many of President Barack Obama's priorities, includes new requirements for employers to offer insurance to their workers or face penalties, fines on Americans who don't purchase coverage and subsidies to help lower-income people do so. Insurance companies would face new prohibitions against charging much more to older people or denying coverage to people with health conditions.

Full article...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jlMpJGn28kqCcgU-aGcYE_ZHW-ywD9BKC37G0

[StinkerBell]

life, liberty and the pusuit of happiness.......

I am alive. so that is covered but the liberty and the pursuit of happiness is so impeded on that I can no longer pusue it.

The taxation and over reaching laws have completely ruined it.  How can anyone truly pursue happiness?
I am rather tired of hearing how the rich must pay more. Keep tax the mega rich and they will just leave, I would.

There is no equility under the law. I am forced with such taxation to contribute to everyone else. The redistribution of wealth robs me. There seems to be this idea that people will not help their neighbors or local communities or churches. I do have great joy when I am able to help out, that is part of my faith. It is what I am suppose to do. BUT it needs to be a free will thing and not a mandated thing. By mandating me to give robs me of my pursuit of happiness and my goodwill to man. Our burdens now are so much that I really can no longer help the way I once did.


What is my motive to work hard? especially when there are all these entitlements? why must I be a model of excellence when it will only be robed? I have those days where I just rather sell everything I own have no vested interest in this country, If I have nothing nothing can not be taken away.,

[Pox Eclipse]

If you believe individual income tax rates are too high now, what would you say is a fair tax rate? 

Taxes haven't been this low since 1933.

[harry51]

I would say a fair individual income tax rate would be zero.

Having to account to the gov't for our earnings is absolute anathema to liberty. If we're going to suffer along with a fiat currency based marketplace, then let the gov't pay its expenses through expansion of the money supply and abolish the irs and all the misery and wasted, needless work that is foisted upon us by its existence. BTW, this was suggested by Paul Volker, at a G20 meeting IIRC,  in Mexico during or shortly after his stint as Federal Reserve chairman.

[Pox Eclipse]

From 1951 through 1964, there was a 91% tax rate on income over $200,000 per year.  Not only did the the rich not flee the country, we had the largest peacetime expansion in the economy ever recorded.

http://www.ctj.org/pdf/regcg.pdf

Taxes are good for the economy.  The rich get richer during periods of high tax rates than they do during periods of low tax rates, even if you subtract the taxes they pay.  Who do you think benefits most by increased government spending?  The poor?   

The problem comes when the wealthy begin to believe they can have the growth they enjoy with expanding government spending, and not pay taxes.   In short, greed is not good for anybody.   

The problem is not taxes people. 

We are the most under-taxed people in the world, and it is destroying our economy.

[harry51]

Volcker suggested that gov't expenses could be funded from the expansion of the money supply, i.e., planned inflation. I can't find the quote now, but he made the remark at or following a meeting in Mexico during or shortly after the Reagan years. Since the gov't has the constitutional authority to coin money and regulate the value thereof, they could just create it out of thin air and spend it to finance the military or whatever else. Lots of folks believe they're basically doing something very close to that right now through the federal reserve system in addition to the taxation system.

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services taxpayers expect from government."
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984

The U.S. got along fine without any federal gov't intrusion into personal finance until 1913. Until then, the federal gov't was financed mostly by excise taxes on imports, which would be vastly preferable to what we have now. IMO, the current system is intrusive, abusive, punitive, and disgustingly wasteful of the time and energy of both the tax payers and the tax collectors. Individual income tax as we know it is coercion in its most blatant form and in a nation conceived on the principle of personal liberty, it's just plain wrong, arguments about taxes and gov't spending being good for the economy notwithstanding.

[MountainDon]

We are the most under-taxed people in the world

Hijack time...  

Tax rates around the world...

http://www.worldwide-tax.com/

and...

http://www.economist.com/daily/chartgallery/displaystory.cfm?story_id=14340551

[Sassy]

Volcker suggested that gov't expenses could be funded from the expansion of the money supply, i.e., planned inflation. I can't find the quote now, but he made the remark at or following a meeting in Mexico during or shortly after the Reagan years. Since the gov't has the constitutional authority to coin money and regulate the value thereof, they could just create it out of thin air and spend it to finance the military or whatever else. Lots of folks believe they're basically doing something very close to that right now through the federal reserve system in addition to the taxation system.

"100% of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the Federal Debt ... all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services taxpayers expect from government."
-Grace Commission report submitted to President Ronald Reagan - January 15, 1984

The U.S. got along fine without any federal gov't intrusion into personal finance until 1913. Until then, the federal gov't was financed mostly by excise taxes on imports, which would be vastly preferable to what we have now. IMO, the current system is intrusive, abusive, punitive, and disgustingly wasteful of the time and energy of both the tax payers and the tax collectors. Individual income tax as we know it is coercion in its most blatant form and in a nation conceived on the principle of personal liberty, it's just plain wrong, arguments about taxes and gov't spending being good for the economy notwithstanding.

"Here, here!  Preach it brother!   

[Pox Eclipse]

The U.S. got along fine without any federal gov't intrusion into personal finance until 1913.

Well, yeah, except when it didn't get along fine:

the Panic of 1857,
the Panic of 1873,
the Panic of 1893,
the Panic of 1907.

[harry51]

How would the individual income tax have avoided the "panics"?  And even if it would, is being insulated from the pain of shaking out malinvestment worth sacrificing liberty for? Not for me.

[Pox Eclipse]

One man's liberty is another man's tyranny.

[Windpower]

The US is teh ONLY country that allows health insurance companies to make a profit

The US is the ONLY country that allows prescription drugs to be advertised

France Japan andGermany all have better health care than the US by virtually any measure

maybe we aren't doing this health care thing in the best way .....

[harry51]

The US is teh ONLY country that allows health insurance companies to make a profit

The US is the ONLY country that allows prescription drugs to be advertised

France Japan andGermany all have better health care than the US by virtually any measure

maybe we aren't doing this health care thing in the best way .....

Certainly there's room for improvement, both here and there. But using the coercive power of gov't to force people to buy insurance they don't want is not the right answer.

[karnf]

EMCVAY----I'm with you---I'll stick to cabin building. We can all agree---Everyone regardless of our
political views has good cabin building ideas!
I will give all of you this to ponder----the purposed public health care bill wouldn't take effect till election
year 2012! I thought there was this emergency to get every American healthcare which we all desperately
need? The government for the good of the people? Good Figure! Something to think about as I put up my
siding on my shed/cabin.

[MountainDon]

I'm going to dredge up this slightly old thread with a question or two.   

How many of us have family members or friends who have lived in other countries for many years? I'm specifically thinking of countries like Germany and Switzerland, but any place will do. From what I have read those two countries seem to have systems that work better than ours when measured in terms of at birth life expectancy and infant mortality rates.

ScottA has family in Germany IIRC. I think the Frit Sticks are the memory jogger.    Anyhow what kind of feedback do you get from folks you know in other countries. Tales of woe as some of our politicians are relate, or stories of good care delivered with a minimal amount of dealing with paperwork?

[StinkerBell]

National Health Service.....England...Not so good.

[Woodsrule]

Don,  you asked whether or not folks had relatives living in other countries with communist medicicine. I have many family members who live in Canada and HATE their health care situation. Many of them have to cross the border for procedures that we would consider routine. They love their country, but hate that they have to pay confiscatory taxes every day in order to provide free care to anyone who crosses their border. Speaking of which, their immigration policies are tightening up. I think it's a little too little and a little too late for them. Case in point - the Premier who travelled to Florida for a heart procedure.