Long time no post........Septic Approval.

[StinkerBell]

Hi Everyone !

Sorry I have not posted in awhile. All work and no play makes for a dull girl.

So, update is my septic design was just approved after the first set was returned with about 6 things we forgot. Seeing that this is the first septic Hubby and I have designed I think 6 errors was not too bad. One of the errors was we did not place on the plan "New Septic" and we also forgot to add a written owners manual.

I now know way too much about human waste then I ever wanted to know. I always thought when I flushed it made it way IMMEDIATELY out to the sewer in the street and on its way to the sewer plant. It's not true. It likes to hang around....I will never flush a dead gold fish again.

It looks like by summers end all of the infra structure should be done.

[glenn-k]

We were afraid you didn't like us anymore. :'(

Great to hear from you again, Stinkerbell.  Glad you are making progress.  I'm afraid I would have failed the owners manual too. :-/

Not only do they like to hang around, Stinkerbell, not all of them want to go willingly when you flush.  I have never figured out why engineers figure that a 2"  throat is big enough for the trap in a modern toilet.  

[desdawg]

Wow, an owners manual! I hope ADEQ in AZ doesn't hear about that one. We have enough requirements. All my customers want is to hit the flush handle and have it go away. They don't want to know about anything else.
Glenn, I am not going to ask about your diet.

[fishing_guy]

Glenn, I am not going to ask about your diet.

I think it was the Parsnips.

I can't believe they actually let you design your own septic system.  Up here in MN, it has to be designed and built by a liscensed contractor.

Unless you want an outhouse.  Then it's just pay 'em the $50 and keep it 150 ft away from water sources.

[glenn-k]

I think the parsnips and cabbage help.  Problem seems to be the steaks and cheese. :-/

[Sassy]

Happy anniversary, Stinkerbell!  Our 10th is coming up in June  

[glenn-k]

Happy Anniversary, Stinkerbell.

Hope you two find each other funny for many years to come.

[StinkerBell]

Thanks!

[StinkerBell]

Happy Anniversary, Stinkerbell.

Hope you two find each other funny for many years to come.

Naked old people are funny to laugh at.


BTW

Someone needs to repeal that law of gravity thing.

[desdawg]

I once hooked a sewer line to a septic system for a Vitnamese guy. I didn't have any 45's so I threw a couple of 90's in. Then I went and got him and showed him what I had done, saying I would change it the next day. He said "Ya, supposed to be smooth." To which I replied, "Not a problem, it's only noodles. If you ever say 'Wheres the beef' we got trouble."  

[glenn-k]

Maybe you can invent an iron for a birthday suit, Stinkerbell.  You could make a million by the time you were old enough to need  it.

I suggest going to Saline Valley Warm spring.  You'd really enjoy yourself there.

[natopotato]

Can you please clearify... You can design and build your own septic??? Can you point me in the direction of any resorces??? This would be wonderful.

ANYTHING to cut costs!!

ps... any news in a DIY well drill bit i can slap on my dewalt??!!

[StinkerBell]

Can you please clearify... You can design and build your own septic??? Can you point me in the direction of any resorces??? This would be wonderful.

ANYTHING to cut costs!!

ps... any news in a DIY well drill bit i can slap on my dewalt??!!

We designed our own septic system. I have to buy a concrete septic tank (thats not something I want to make). You have to met the requirements of the county for your septic system. For example ours is designed  for 3 bedroom home. There was a lot of calculations based on the soil, tank, depth of drain field and area of drain field. We needed pump system in our design (which was the biggest complexity in the design). Find out from your county what the requirements are. We had a PERK test. That test was the threshold for us, no perk approval no chance for building for us. The Perk test gave us the parameters of what we could do.

[deertracks]

Good to hear you are still moving along on your project. We are in the same county and passed our perc for standard gravity system. My hubby designed the septic and he had never done it before either. We didn't have to include an owners manual. Our well and pump are in and the septic will come later... the perc was a "hold your breath" situation as we had already purchased the acreage.
Good luck with everything.

[glenn-k]

Some counties require a licensed septic contractor to do it.  Ours loves to see a General Engineering Contractor license but a General Building Contractor -me -- can get by if they can demonstrate that the are capable of doing it right.

[natopotato]

Thanks Guys! I can tell this is going to be a wonderful comunity to share my up and coming building experience with.

[Amanda_931]

there is something else.  (actually there are several something elses)

The Watson Wick--somebody's got more information than this, and I think it was posted here once.  Sand filters and graywater systems if you've also got something to do with your blackwater--however defined.

http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/permaculture/2002-October/016199.html

[NetHog]

Stink says I needed to finally sign up.

Septic systems... this was for NE Washington.

The "perc test" requirements, needed a hole dug with a slope going down to about 6ft in the ground either corner of the drain field. Stink did wonders with our Kubota. BTW, this is emphasised time and time again, but do the perc test before constructing anything else on the property.

Engineer required what we expected, which was a pump driven septic system (well, the drain field was higher than the septic tank...). Thankfully we did not have to create a pressurized septic system, which I think is the worst. The drain field was specified as "exactly 12" deep" which means we will have to backfill another 6-12" over this.

Once that passed, I was to submit plans... no clue, no clue at all. Even with all the info the county sent us. County rules are that a home owner can submit twice. If the plans are rejected both times, then an approved licensed contractor must submit the plans. Lots of searching on web, and informally sent first draft by fax to the health department (doesn't count as a submit), where an engineer there helped set me straight. He was very encouraging.

So, thinking I had included everything he asked, and everything in the doc, I skipped past "submit a manual" thinking that as I was the home owner, I don't need to write myself a manual... how wrong I was. After the first submittal got returned, I looked at the list and thought "I have no idea how to design a septic system... help!" I called the engineer, who told me that the items were just minor and easy to fix and that I practically had it. He said that once I fixed them, I could informally send the plans to him, and he'll check over it before I submit the plans formally. When I did so, he gave me one "must fix" and a few suggestions before I submitted formally.

So, what did I submit?

I'll see about getting a PDF file up on the web if people are interested (I'll need to remove identifying details). All submitted details was accepted on 8x11".

• I had one overview plan showing the boundaries of the property and where the septic system sits on the property
  
• One detail plan. This showed practically everything but electrical details. Including...
  
• North
  
• Elevation of all corners of drain field, and elevation of septic tank.
  
• Locations of wires (this was a pump septic system) and pipes. Types of pipes had to be called out (engineer suggested to me what I needed to use)
  
• Friction coefficient. I laughed at this, but makes sense. 1" pipe to drain field has much more friction than 2" pipe...
  
• Septic tank, depth, pump details in pump chamber, float levels, pump standing off bottom about 6"
  
• Pump schedule (2 times a day, "on" level, "alarm" level, "redundant off" level, gallon amounts) County engineer explained to me why I didn't want to make the pump start if the alarm kicked on which was the final correction I had to make.
  
• Pump needed details to ensure servicing, details showing a valve and a weep hole. The weep hole ensures the uphill pipe drains so that you dont get frozen waste... ewww
  
• Filter between 2 septic chambers of the septic tank and the pump chamber (the tank was 3 chamber, but other options exist)
  
• 2" pipe from pump steps to 4" before hitting the D-box (distribution box). The D-box is such that the waste hits the back-wall of the D-box (think hose pipe) and then the drain field pipes lead away from D-box going down-hill slightly to the drain field.
  
• The engineer had me lower D-box and add a servicing hatch. He described that the servicing hatch could be stuffed with blankets during winter to stop the D-box freezing.
  
• We engineered the domed plastic alternative to traditional drain field. Normally that can allow up to 20% reduction of drain field, however the soil type didn't give us any grace there. The drain field is where levels are important to ensure level distribution. Bunch of rules around the drain field
  
• User manual, including electric wiring details of pump control panel and pump; do's and don'ts... most of this I searched web on care and maintainance of septic system.
  

The drain field is the most critical part of the system. As well as the primary drain field, there needs to be at least one backup drain field as the drain field has to be on "undisturbed" soil... I'm not sure how you can truely say "undisturbed" when you have to rip roots out, but you can't, e.g. park the RV on the backup drain field.

The pump was the most complicated part of the design and gave me most grief. You have to allow for normal use, and reserve in case the pump fails (gives about 2 days of 'critical only' use). As pump can fail, it must be disconnectable and retrievable.

When figuring out numbers, it was scarey to think that each time the pump runs, it pumps about 17 gallons into the pipes before anything reaches the D-box. When the pump has finished, 17 gallons slowly drains through a tiny hole in the pipe. The pump runs twice a day (if and only if the 'on' float indicates there is anything to pump) engineered to pump 180gal at a time. (The requirements given by the county engineer specified I can engineer a value up to 360, i.e. the daily dose).

Wow, long first post.

[NetHog]

Continued...

Fuzzy numbers. The septic system is specified as 360gal/day, which is the book number for a 3-bedroom house per county. (Off top of my head, I think I have the number right).

Now typical household would use much less than 360/day. Given parties or wash-days, you may use over 360gal in a day. But the whole thing is engineered so that if you average out the daily dose over a few days, it'll be less than 360/day.

Now, add a pump, the system has to be able to move not only the 360gal/day engineered daily dose, but also "some more" for those peak usage cases. The county engineer specified I could pump "1 or more times a day" meaning I could pump any amount up to 360gal/day. So, I can pump once, and allow for about 600 gal in pump chamber (360gal + some amount in bottom that never gets pumped out, + some reserve, + 17gal line charge). Or pump 2-3 times and have a smaller pump chamber. The pump chamber was 550gal with 11.8gal/inch, allowing a pump regularity of 2-3 times a day. I can't remember off top of my head if I specified 2, or 3 times. At one point I had 3 times, but I think after feedback I reduced it down to 2.

Ok, I've written enough for today, I'll dig my plans out later if anyone wants more detail.

[glenn-k]

Wow , Hog -- good post -- tell Stink thanks for getting you to sign up.  Hope I'm not calling her a pet name -- you used it.

Please post whatever you can on this when you are ready.  Good job on a complicated project.

Thanks again, Stinkerbell.  

[glenn-k]

When you get to it - did you use a chamber in addition to the septic tank?   I assume so as the drop in ones are pretty small I think.  What about an effluent filter - was that required?  Daddymem recommends it - he's a septic and other engineer.

[NetHog]

Thanks Glenn.

The county health department have a wonderful group of people there. The county engineer could have been by the book and not helped us out at all. But he bent over backwards to help us get the plans right. Goes to show, you treat people nice, it usually pays off. Same was true with the electric company when we got the electric hooked up (did Stink post about that?).

[Sassy]

Welcome, Nethog!

John posted a link to Lloyd Kahn's blog & as I was browsing through I ran into a link to septic systems http://www.shelterpub.com/_shelter/_septic/bulletin_board.html

"New Info On Septic Systems

Here is a sneak preview of updates to our Septic Systems Owner's Manual, including a chapter titled "Excessive Engineering and Overzealous Regulation," which blows the whistle on corruption in the field and ripoff of homeowners throughout North America. Homewoners read it and weep!"  Lloyd Kahn

[glenn-k]

I remember Stink talking about wanting to or being able to use her hair drier as the pole was getting put in.  I could just imagine her standing in the middle of an open field next to a pole drying her hair.  Certain things a lady can't do without I guess. :-/

[NetHog]

When you get to it - did you use a chamber in addition to the septic tank?   I assume so as the drop in ones are pretty small I think.  What about an effluent filter - was that required?  Daddymem recommends it - he's a septic and other engineer.

We're using a 3-chamber tank built by local concrete company. As for effluent filter, this was required (was on the list of things I forgot). As well as protecting the pump, the county engineer explained that it reduced the amount of effluent that found its way onto the field.

The county engineer also gave me the tip "most people put the pump on a 6" brick" explaining that some effluent collects over time at the bottom of the pump chamber. 6" immediately eats up about 70gal of the tank capacity... youch. But I received that tip well, and put that into the design.