20 x 28 Wisconsin * Fast & Furious!

[RRS4727]

Ok, I've been reading/lurking a long time. I've been playing around with designs for years.
I got some great advice when I was trying to go "underground".
(If you're anywhere near civilization, basically, don't do it; could well cost you a lot more in the long run)
Bldg Codes: lay low or consult lawyer? http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11528.msg147914#msg147914

We have a cottage in Door County WI.
When family visits, they visit in droves and I would like a little more space. 
We considered remodeling/adding on, but the way our house is configured on our long, very narrow lot (E-W sides are 95' x N-S side are 400' ~1 acre) it won't work. 

I took a deep breath, took your advice and re-called the Building Code guy in our neck of the woods.
As I was trying to skirt the issue, talking about wanting to build a "studio", he said, "Why don't you consider an auxiliary dwelling? We changed our codes a few months ago to allow guest houses."

Great!
Our constraints:

• building height cannot exceed 18ft tall,
  must have plumbing, electrical, kitchen/bath. We're one of the last houses on the road w/public sewer so we're ok.
  Usual setbacks, etc.

I've spent almost a year warming my husband up to the idea.
We're hosting a wedding in our tiny back yard end of June and everyone's coming home. So now it's ON!

Here's what I'm looking at:
20x28 1 story, 1 bedroom, +1 bunkroom or alcove, +sleeping loft, -7/12 pitch roof to stay under the 18 ft height limit, front porch. (my daughter has 5 kids in her family alone) LOTs of windows - it's pretty dark in the woods.

Our building site isn't easy.
Can't drive big equipment to behind our house, where we want to build. Door county is basically rock/limestone. (lot's of holding tanks around here and VERY few basements)
Retaining wall along north side of house, (pic below - no access to back) & we're pretty close to south side of lot line.
No one's on the south side, but our front (east) and the south side are mostly trees.
We can cut a path for a small machinery (skid loader, etc) from the front road, along the south side of the property. We'll build in back – the west part of our lot.



The building will be just beyond these trees.

Backyard

There are things we need to hire the varsity squad for:
$6,000 - Plumbing contractor - to hand cut through the rock (no blasting since it's so close to our house) & hook up to our sewer & water in our basement.
$3,700 - Excavation & Slab foundation for 20x28 foundation + 8x16 porch (not happy with slab, but, I don't think a pier foundation will make the inspectors happy or pass code in our township)
$1,200+/- fees (I was whining about that until I heard someone was looking at $20,000!?!?)
And we haven't even started the building.

If we're going to do this, the shell needs to be connected to plumbing (which probably means electrical) & up by June, so I'm trying to get bids for just the shell/structure and, since we have several weeks end of May-June, we'll finish the rest. At least on the outside then we'll work on it as funds permit. (wedding at our house in the backyard June 30)

ASKING FOR FEEDBACK.

When I thought we were going to have the time to do everything, I purposefully kept the building to a rectangle so it would be simple for us. Backed up plumbing, etc.
I like the front kitchenette with a small angled hall, but I lose 30+ precious sq feet and it comes out of the bunk area and there's less kitchen (but I don't really need a full kitchen)

I'm not used to slab, and I plan to have an open / vaulted ceiling w/loft, so...is a closet enough room for all the mechanical stuff you need?
Other design considerations that will make it work?
Easier?
Less expensive?
More efficient?
I put a closet between the kitchen & bath to share hot water heater, run the water lines, etc.

I hope to have a propane stove or fireplace for heat and gas H2O heater. I need to see if we can hook up to our existing propane tank or if it's cost prohibitive.
Window air if necessary. Last year we needed it for about a week.


(Removed plan pic since we're not going with it)

So I've been leaning toward a design with the back kitchen even though I'm not crazy about the bathroom & bedrooms opening up directly to the living area.
But....it's all family;-)
(used some advice for software I found on this site – forgive the "decorating")










We have to make a decision ASAP – I appreciate the thoughtful critique I've read on this site.

[flyingvan]

  Just a thought----per UBC, ceiling height must be 7'6", but not for bathrooms or kitchens, where they can be 7'.  and your porch dormer looks like it goes over the kitchen and bathroom---18' should give you plenty of room for a loft area there (unless you wanted to keep everything single story)

[RRS4727]

Thanks for the input.
I was leaning toward the open plan (2nd plan with no hallway) even though I think the front kitchen/bath is more interesting. (1st plan)
I'm not sure I can give up the 30 s ft that the hallway takes up.
But I've never tried to design this size of space. Maybe it's not that much of a problem.

In the 2nd plan (open - no hallway) the loft  will be on one side over the 2 bedrooms. A straight shot. (Easier building?)
The exterior picture is the open plan design with back kichen & bath.
And yes, 7' 6" over the bedrooms will be fine.
The open area will be vaulted to open up the space.

I'm not used to slab building. It perplexes me  - I know I must be forgetting things. How far does it rise off the ground? (what about door thresholds - interior and exterior?)
Is it just a "hunk-O-cement" or do they leave a lower perimeter to attach exterior walls?
That's one reason I have a "closet" between the bath & kitchen. For mechanicals, a place for the shared vent pipe, place to bring in propane gas line - if that's even an option.

What am I forgetting or obsessing over too much?

[Don_P]

A slab can be at any elevation. We have one section of the house on a slab that is 18" to 3' above exterior grade. We filled and compacted the section under the slab. Raising it adds cost. Start researching edge insulation techniques.

A radiant floor with an on demand heater could provide both heat and hot water in a small package.

I believe that is a storage area overhead, without a ladder.

[itpdk9]

RRS- I really like your design.  Have a question how much height will you have in the loft and how are you planning on finishing it?  A really good use of space.  Would love to see any diagrams that you have of the loft area.  I am definitely following this one...looks great so far.

[cbc58]

i like #2 (no hallway).   are you trying to get this all done by the middle of June... in WI?

if time is a concern... have you considered maybe a couple of 12x16 sleeping cottages or tent-type bungalows (www.sweetwaterbungalows.com)

[UK4X4]

forget the hall way- just wasted space

I went from solid slab to perimeter foundation and crawl space as I know I'll need to change something down the road and having everything concreted over worried me !-

it also means wether bath x is 2 ft further left in 2 months- will make no diference

[RRS4727]

cbc58:
Completely done by end of June?
I'm not quite THAT delusional.
It needs to "Look" like it's done from the outside, though - for the wedding reception taking place in our back yard June 30. (my son is marrying someone from the east coast - she's our our dream girl, but her family thinks everyone in WI has cows  )

And I would really like to have running water, toilet, shower etc. because my daughter's fam will stay with us (2 adults, 5 kids) and would stay in there probably in sleeping bags on the floor -kind of like camping! Other extended fam is helping out, so  I'd like to be able to offer for some of them to stay with us since we're asking them to help get things ready and they're traveling... that makes 10-15 people.

Actually, in the future, we will finish the loft for sleeping (I've already downloaded the ships ladder/stairs) - nothing fancy (the 5+ grandkids, brothers, sisters, neices/nephews, their significant others....) Last summer the fam. got together, we had 17 people. Tents in the back yard, kids sleeping on the floor, in porches, me tripping over them in the middle of the night.....sleeping/crashing space is important.

itpdk9:
How much height in the loft? Remains to be seen. We're limited to 18 ft total height which means 7/12 roof and not too high of a foundation. (another reason for considering the slab) Not enough for an actual walkaround, but more than just crawling around and enough for sleeping.

UK4X4:I'm concerned about slab as well. Not too forgiving. That's why I need to get this right.
This place will primarily be a 3 season cottage, and we'll shut it down end of fall. But I want the option, if, on rare occasion, we want to use it in winter.

Don, you wrote, "A radiant floor with an on demand heater could provide both heat and hot water in a small package."
I'm concerned with how cold the slab could be.
Since we don't plan to keep it open in the winter (and WI does winter as well as any northern state!) is this a decent cost option? I'll also search the site.
I was looking at a gas stove/fireplace insert for chilly spring and fall days.
We have wood, because trees have shallow roots and are always falling (crappy poplar)  but I'm not sure I want to worry about anyone else staying in there trying to figure out how to start a fire.

Also, we won't have an attic/loft for storage. Will the small closet between the kitchen & bath suffice for mechanicals?
I still don't know if we can get access from our current propane tank.
If we can – I want gas/propane. If we have to get another tank, I think we'd lean toward electric. The discussion on PROPANE on the general area has been very helpful.

The place the cottage will go is fairly flat, so I'll need to check into edge insulation techniques. (once I understand what it is and what I should have in my part of the country - Thank you "search" on this site and google!)
Every inch above the soil is counted as part of our 18' height max. But digging down isn't easy either.
Door county "soil" is brutal. An average of 18" in the county on top of rock. Of course it's hit or miss. I have a 42" diameter maple tree in the front, so I know there's a pocket of dirt. Then 20' away, the rock comes through the dirt.

Here's why farmers didn't do very well in previous times:


Another tree coming down so my husband got out the chain saw - the rocks showing below did not come from more than 2" below the grass.


Makes for gorgeous bluffs, though:




(and no  - we do not live on the water.... But we're only a couple blocks away)

Alright – no hall. A nice rectangle with the kitchen & bath in back. I have to make it work!
I'll look up the other ideas you had. Thanks!

[RRS4727]

I was just looking at my own plans. I will have an open loft over the bedrooms, but not the bath - leaves attic space for hot water heater
I'll need to see how much actual space/height there will be with a 7/12  roof 5 feet into the building.
And if I can use it.

[Squirl]

Just a few comments, I hope they are helpful.
First design
Check with your local department on door width.  These are becoming common local and state regs.  I turned in my design without checking first and got it back marking up all the doors to 32" wide.
Is that a gas heater?  Very low clearances.  I would be sure of installation and manufacturer.
All hallways must be 36" wide.  I can't tell from the picture.  The building department will probably want to see that marked also.

Second design
Toilets and sinks have a distance requirement from showers.  I got nailed on this too.  I had the right spacing but my plans didn't show it.  UK4X4 had a topic on this recently.
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11829.msg151974#msg151974

Overall, woodstoves take up much more space than propane because of required clearances.  They are more expensive installation, harder to maintain, cost more in insurance,  and are more work to install.  That is before you even put the work into the fuel.  They don't always make sense for a small backyard guesthouse.  Many guests might not even know how to work one safely.

Great Pictures.

[Alan Gage]

As for slab temp. I'm finishing up  my slab on grade home in NW Iowa (full time residence). I was quite worried about a cold floor but after lots of research and asking questions decided to go with it. I've got R-16 under the slab and along the perimeter. The floor is the same temperature as my walls (wood stove heat).

Alan

[RRS4727]

Squirl:
Thanks for the links to bathroom code. I didn't hink about that. I think I'm ok, but I'll bet that hold zero sway with inspectors, so I'll be sure to mark on actual plans.
32" doors...hmmmm, I've planned on 28 so I'll have to reconfigure if need be.
The more comments I read about the hallway design it's really not the best option.

Gas stove – absolutely! I can't imagine the worries I'd have about my daughter's 8 year old twins trying to light a fire. GULP.
They are - actually all 5 of her kids are... what are some nice words....rascally and adventurous. Not a good combo around a wood buring stove.

I threw in the pics so people could get an idea of how difficult/expensive it is to dig a crawl space or even put in piers.
Ok, so we're being wusses about hand digging in that rocky ground.
Getting equipment to the site is proving to be one of the most challenging aspects of the job.
A lot of materials have to be walked in because of the retaining wall (guys could crawl up...) and very narrow access to the back of our lot.
Alan:
Thanks for reassuring me about the slab floor temps. I just stepped on my garage floor and it was FREEZING.
I was wondering if it would be that cold. I'll need to make sure it's insulated underneath and around the perimeter.

Now if I can just ignore this post: about the cost being double what you had planned: 
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11843.0
..... Such a cruel comment about reality throwing a wrench in my plans 

Just FYI: This site really needs an emoticon that says "Time to get back to what I supposed to be doing!"

[duncanshannon]

Hi-

Here are some links where people are discussing a Frost Protected Shallow Foundation (FPSF) including one guy in Wisconsin (Spooner area). I hope to build some day in that same area, and hope to use a FPSF. 

Its acceptable in WI for code.

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6124
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=5841.0
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=10211.msg133221#msg133221

Glad to see someone else from WI here... will look forward to your build!

[mgramann]

When we did the addition on our cabin(NE Wisconsin) we installed in floor heat, since the main cabin had no central heating system.  It was an extra $800 to add the pex and necessary insulation to the slab.  I built the rest of the system for around $500.  It has performed flawlessly the past two winters.

It is a very simple design.  A 15 gallon electric water heater with an oversize(5500w) element does the heating.  Above that, a Taco circulation pump sends water through a pressure tank/fill/air elimination assembly and to the manifold, which splits the hot fluid into three zones, with manual shutoffs.  The fluid is pumped through the floors, and returns to another manifold where it is combined and sent back to the water heater.

It is hard to beat as far as simplicity goes, and takes up a minimal amount of space.  I highly recommend it.

Feel free to PM me with any questions.