Chest Refrigerator

Started by considerations, December 13, 2008, 11:50:15 PM

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MountainDon

That would work Frank. If you froze water in a couple of gallon milk/water type jugs and hauled it up there in one of the extreme type coolers, that would be your ice and they would last a long time I'm sure. I've been doing that for desert camping for years. Up in the Jemez in the summer the RV fridge is a little small for protracted stays. I use the big Extreme cooler with two frozen jugs and they keep over a week.

I like the jugs as that prevents the cooler from filling up with melt water. There is some condensation inside.

I don't want to do something like that for our cabin as we'd like to be able to leave eggs, margarine, drinks, pickles, cheese, whatever in the fridge when we go back to town for a day or two...
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

NM_Shooter

Thanks Don,

I was trying to figure out a simple way to put in a drain to get rid of the ice melt and condensate... I think that your idea of using milk jugs is a great way to go.  Keep the frozen stuff on the bottom, drinks, milk, cheese, lunchmeat near the top. Should last quite awhile.  Maybe a bin in the bottom for ice cubes.  keeping the water in jugs I could probably do without any drainage and seal it up even tighter.

I'm sort of getting an idea in my head for using a cabinet base that has this chest built into the top, with a hinged counter top.  Below that in the cabinet base a pull out drawer or two. 

Hmmmm....another winter project!

-f-
"Officium Vacuus Auctorita"


r8ingbull

Use one cooler for ice, only open it once a day.  I have two coleman "extreme" coolers, will keep ice cubes for a week, if you don't open it.  I like to add 10# block of dry ice wrapped in newspaper to the block ice.  I get into it once a day to grab some ice for the other cooler.   I've made it 10 days with the dry ice/ice combo.  Like you said, toughest thing is getting the food cold...trying to chill beer for 4 guys takes a lot of ice...Luckily, Lake Superior can get the drinks to the low 50's...

MountainDon

Yes, I've used dry ice too on ice on longer desert trips in the past/

There is another method to keep the water away from the food, and allow the use store bought blocks... though the last place I recall seeing block was at one of the marina's on Lake Powell... most places only seem to have crushed/cube for sale..

Have some galvanized sheet steel boxes made about the size of an ice block. That would keep the ice/water away from the food. You could even freeze water in them yourself. Just another idea. Not original... way back when there was door to door milk delivery the trucks back home used a metl box like this for ice in the wooden butter box, keeping it cool and dry.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

wildbil

I don't mean to be off topic, but I wanted to comment on Don's post about the differences in today and past times.

I find your observations a fair and realistic comparison of the times. I must add that just because a chore is now delegated to a machine like laundry washers/dryers, dish washers, and other electrical appliances, does not mean they actually save any time. You must now work to pay for these time saving devices therefore negating their advantage. There was also two different sources of energy. Today we rely almost purely on electricity which may or may not be from a renewable resource. "Back then" there was Human power, where things were ran from an entirely easy and cheap resource. The human resource is still around, mostly unused, building up [hungry],especially in the United States.

I'm not say any era was superior to the other; I'm just saying that for people like me who aren't happy with how things are going today in my world, The past can provide valuable lessons and options.

Sorry this has nothing to do with the chest refridgerator.
"A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine."
-Thomas Jefferson


MountainDon

#30
Quote from: wildbil on December 16, 2008, 09:48:30 PM
... does not mean they actually save any time. You must now work to pay for these time saving devices therefore negating their advantage. ...

Don't worry overly about the topic drift, this one's not too bad.

I guess what I missed in that post of mine, was that it was my perception that as my parents worked and saved and bought those labor savings devices (cash, no credit) they had more time for other things. Dad worked about the same number of hours but did more hobby woodworking, Mom did more volunteer work at the church and joined a ladies sewing group.

My view is that they became able to do more things that were non essential to the direct running and upkeep of the home. They had reached a point where they could participate in more activities by choice, for personal enjoyment.

OMMV (Others Mileage May Vary)

Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

considerations

"I think I will end up building it into the counter top" 

Now this is an idea I like. 

"keeping the water in jugs I could probably do without any drainage and seal it up even tighter."

In combination.  One could end up paying for the purchase and electrical "expense" of an efficient chest freezer on the enclosed porch on the cold side of the house that freezes the water filled milk jugs that supply the "extreme" chest cooler/fridge/icebox under a portion of the kitchen counter, which is actually the facing of the cooler door.  Cause if I'm reading these posts right, an average upright fridge uses more electricity than an average chest freezer. (?)

Now we're getting somewhere. 


MountainDon

How big of a chest freezer would be required. With a plan like just suggested would the chest freezer also be used for frozen foods? A quick perusal of the energy star rating on refrigerators and freezers finds that the chest freezer with the least annual power use to be a 5.5 cu. ft Haier. It is rated at 193 KwH per year. An 8.8 cu ft Frigidaire chest freezer runs 282 KwH annual. A 15 cu ft Frigidaire chest freezer runs 357 KwH annual.

For comparison a Sunfrost RF-12 (12 cu ft total, refrigerator with top freezer) is rated at 171 KwH. Sunfrost is regarded as being the most efficient appliance out there. I have heard/read good and bad about them.   :-\

A more or less standard refrigerator with top freezer, a 15 cu ft Frigidaire, runs 354 KwH annual.

So what's it all mean?

A 5.5 cu ft Haier chest freezer uses slightly more power than a 'gold standard" Sunfrost RF-12 fridge/freezer. But you'd have a bigger freezer. I don't know if the cycling of water jugs would fall under the parameters of whatever constitutes normal use for the tests. You could have a reasonable sized chest style ice box powered by your own ice making ability.   ??? ???  Should work fine until you're absent for an extended period.

On the other hand the 15 cu ft "normal" refrigerator costs a whole lot less than the Sunfrost and uses not quite twice as much power as the Sunfrost RF-12 or the Haier chest freezer.  Spend the difference between the Sunfrost and the Frigidaire on another PV panel or two and some more batteries if you're off grid, and that could be an option as well. And no fuss with the jugs of water/ice.

Lots of ways to go. Each of us has to find that balance of energy use vs convenience.  There's also a difference in overall application to consider; Frank is looking at occasional deep backcountry use, considerations is looking at a full time residence and I'm looking at weekend use most of the year with the cabin sitting there unattended plus full time for a three month summer run. There's no one size fits all solution, id there?



Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

glenn kangiser

Sassy wanted the bottom sliding freezer and French doors so that is what we got - the smallest LG one but it is nice to have all the ice we want, but we are still working on beefing up the PV and solar system to keep up all of the time.  Generator boost now as needed.

The chest would be much more efficient but we didn't want the hassle and didn't have the room.
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

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Squirl

NM_Shooter, 

I like the idea of the frozen jugs.  The prevailing wisdom in cruising is that ice in water doesn't last as long. The general rule for boats it to put in drainage for the water.  This can help the ice last twice as long.  They usually put a drain down to the bilge.  It is recommended in every cruising world article and cruising book I have read.  They also recommend using block ice instead of cubes. (less surface area) I don't know how this would apply to a house setup where weight and size are not a factor.

MountainDon

Ice in water vs draining.

Years ago I read the same thing, ice left in it's own melt does not last as long as the ice in a cooler than was drained. This was a beer cooler test and they made another point. The beer in the cooler with melt water retained was colder. So sometimes it depends what is best to do.  ;)

I would sometimes decant the melt from the jugs and use it for drinking water.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Jens

I wonder if a refrigerator using solar would be viable.  The collectors could be on the sunward side, and the fridge on the north side, where it is nice and shady.  In many northern parts of the country, it should be able to work well most if not all of the year.  Or how about a hydro, or wind powered compressor motor?  Don't know about you, but when electricity gets to 80c per kwh, we will probably be going back in time to the days of ice boxes, springhouses, and root cellars.  Meat could be cured too.  Our fridge is usually empty anyway!  Dont have enough money to keep it filled!  One of the nice things about homestead life, fresh milk only needs a cool dark place, same with cheese and butter, eggs don't need refrigeration, just no light, vegetables are canned for use out of season, or consumed fresh and in season, and meats are preserved or eaten fresh.  Fresh meat, and so with meat in general, wasn't as big a part of many diets as we like to think it was, until refrigeration became common and cheap.

then again too, when power goes up to 80c per kwh, minimum wage will probably be somewhere around $90 per hour (California today, x 10)!  If not, I for one just won't have it anymore.

couldnt a chest unit be run off of 220 here in US, using all of this guys stuff?  I have read that 220 is a more efficient means of delivery, and uses fewer watts for the same work.  Dont know for fact though.
just spent a few days building a website, and didn't know that it could be so physically taxing to sit and do nothing all day!

John_C

Block ice lasts much longer than cubes.  I never found draining the ice box into the bilge to be a great idea.  There are always a few bits of food that get down there and then slosh into every corner of the bilge,  You wind up having to put a cup of clorox in the bilge every week to control the odor.  It's not big deal to sponge out the water if the ice box is small or to provide a catchment in a larger box.  It's also not a good idea to just have a straight shot drain to the bilge without a way to close it, a lot of cold air can escape that way. 

I lived for almost 10 years with an ice box on my 27' boat.  I built some for other small boats and some for fishing boats large enough for two or three men to stand up in. Correctly built they can keep ice for a surprisingly long time.

muldoon

Quote from: MountainDon on December 17, 2008, 10:33:19 AM
Ice in water vs draining.

Years ago I read the same thing, ice left in it's own melt does not last as long as the ice in a cooler than was drained. This was a beer cooler test and they made another point. The beer in the cooler with melt water retained was colder. So sometimes it depends what is best to do.  ;)

I would sometimes decant the melt from the jugs and use it for drinking water.

I have done that test as well.  For beer in a cooler, slush water or water and ice will cool your beverages the fastest because the icy cold water has maximum surface contact with the beer.  However, the ice will not last  as long because the water does warm up (law of conservation of energy), it is extracting the heat (energy) from the items in the cooler which in turn warms the water and melts the ice.  no free lunch.  

Another factor in efficiency versus cost would be to add insulation yourself.  Simply wrapping Polycyanurate foam sheeting, 2" thick would be an "R" factor of 14.8.  The cost of the foam board is significantly less than the cost delta between the super high end refrigerators and freezers.  You may lose some in the aesthetics tho.  



MountainDon

Quote from: muldoon on December 17, 2008, 10:44:13 AM

...wrapping Polycyanurate foam sheeting, 2" thick would be an "R" factor of 14.8.  The cost of the foam board is significantly less than the cost delta between the super high end refrigerators and freezers.  You may lose some in the aesthetics tho.  

The plan for our cabin refrigerator includes this. Two inches on the side panels of the Servel 400 propane refrigerator, plus 4 inches on the top. I want to add to the bottom as well. For that I'll build an insulated platform to raise it as it's a short refrigerator. I also want a couple inches on the door if I can. For the aesthetics I plan on using FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) panels. I'll probably trim the corners with wood moldings. Or if I want to get really crazy I could use the formica granite like countertop material to match the counter top.  ::)
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Sassy

When I was a kid my parents took us camping at the lake - we'd stay for a week to 2 weeks at a time throughout the summer - 100+ temps.  All we had were ice chests - my mom would freeze water in the milk cartons - we'd drink the water when it melted.  She had to have enough food for 4 kids, her & my dad - we were always hungry as we water skied & swam all day - she would fix a full course breakfast & dinner & we'd make sandwiches or snacks for lunch.

Seems like we always had enough ice/water/food/soda to last us - don't know how they did it - I only remember 2 big Coleman ice chests (not near as big as some they make now) - the milk cartons worked out great, though. 
http://glennkathystroglodytecabin.blogspot.com/

You will know the truth & the truth will set you free

considerations

"The plan for our cabin refrigerator includes this. Two inches on the side panels of the Servel 400 propane refrigerator, plus 4 inches on the top. I want to add to the bottom as well. For that I'll build an insulated platform to raise it as it's a short refrigerator. I also want a couple inches on the door if I can. For the aesthetics I plan on using FRP (fiberglass reinforced plastic) panels. I'll probably trim the corners with wood moldings. Or if I want to get really crazy I could use the formica granite like countertop material to match the counter top. "

Mountain Don, I'm putting in an early request for seversl pics of this process - you'll be done before I am ready to deal with this issue, and I would like to see how this particular application is applied. 

MountainDon

Alright, I'll file that thought away for spring time. I hope the retrieval goes well.  d*
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

cordwood

I cut it three times and it's still too short.

Whitlock

I'm wondering how this set up would work with a upright freezer ???
Make Peace With Your Past So It Won't Screw Up The Present


MountainDon

I've not got around to the extra insulation on the fridge. It is still on one of the to do lists. 
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

firefox

Ok, bear with me. And no laughing......

Think of a morgue...What do you see? Walls of multiple drawers
stacked 4 and 5 high with seperate refer units.

A simple but expensive way would be to buy 5 seperate, but small
chest type freezers. Mount them in a rack like they use for certain
types of computers on rails. Each unit is self contained and only
looses a little energy if you open it.

The downside to this is the initial cost, but there are some side benefits.

1-Redundancy
2-Individual temperature control for different types of food.
3-Possible different locations for maybe one of the units, like
the one for beer, being close to where it is needed ;D

Ofcourse you could get inventive and make your own with multiple drawers. This is what I was thinking of when I started this. It could be done but the trick is in locating the different heat exchangers
without using flexible tubing, and you would still might need multiple compressors. I haven't crunched the numbers so I don't know what the multiple seperate freezers would cost in a suitable size.

Remember, I said no Laughing...
Bruce
Bruce & Robbie
MVPA 23824

paul wheaton

A friend living off grid has been using a chest fridge for years.  She is getting rid of it because of the PITA factor.  I think she expressed it as "I'm tired of search expeditions for the milk".

pagan

We have a Sundanzer chest fridge and on the plus side it uses very little electricity.

The downsides:

You can't stack anything on top of it, nor have any real shelving above it because it's difficult to lean over.

It's sometimes difficult to find items in the fridge.

You have to lean over to get anything.

It's large...and we got the smaller 5 cubic foot model.

Quality issues:

It makes a constant drip sound, even when not running. We were told this is normal. Our house is very quiet so this sound is easily noticed, especially at night when we're trying to sleep.

The right hinge is tighter than the left so the lid closes tilted toward the right. It produces a vacuum and Sundanzer told us it was a quality control failure and since the fridge works fine there's nothing they can do about it anyway.

My experience...I would not buy another Sundanzer. The quality was not what I expected from a $1,200 fridge, and customer service is laughable. It's noisy, and the ergonomics and the inability to adequately use the space above the fridge doesn't really make this fridge a good fit for a very small space.

MountainDon

Thanks for that insight pagan. The access issues you mentioned are what turned us off one.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.