Winter safety

[tanya]

I have been reading hte story of the family lost inthe woods looking for thier Christmas tree.  IT is so great they are all OK.  It got me thinking about my paranoia.  For years, ever since my kid took up snowboarding and takes off inthe mountains with his buddys a lot.  I always make him take a zip lock baggie with a little survival kit in his pocket.  Even at the ski resports he takes it in his pocket because he leaves his backpack behind sometimes in that zip lock baggie I put a big piece of folded up foil, some tea bags, dry matches and a lighter, some soup broth cubes, some sugar packets, and at least one tea candle usually three.  I also insist tht they take an extra pair of little stretch gloves and dry socks in their pockets.  These few simple easy to carry things can really help out if lost inthe woods or stuck on a chir lift.  Even a little tea candle and a piece of foil can melt snow for a cup of tea or broth and the salt/sugars available can meant the difference between a couple of days survival or a week, plus those tea candles will help if you pour the melted wax over a small amount of fire starter.  Another thing I never get is why these people don't start a big fire in the wonter it seems the logical thing to do. Maybe this most recent family didn't have matches or anything but the family from San Francisco last year where the father perished in Oregon they stayed with their car and there must have been a cig lighter?  And I posted this topic here because i bet there are a lot more good safety ideas lurking here. 

[MountainDon]

My guess is this latest lost group didn't start a fire because they didn't have the means to do so. Depending on the age of their vehicle it may not have been equipped with a cigar lighter. Our Honda has the outlet but no lighter. Or if they were non-smokers they could have discarded the lighter as they never used it. Also starting something on fire in the car and transporting it to the place you want to build a fire may have not occurred to them.

I noted these folks got lost in the woods and couldn't find their way back to their truck. That's very easy to happen in an unfamiliar location. Extra easy if you're not paying attention and wandering around looking for the perfect tree. Fortunately they were well dressed for winter.

The whole thing could have been avoided with the simple act of having a working GPS. When exploring an unfamiliar area I take my GPS unit with me along with fresh batteries. It clips on my backpack strap, jacket chest pocket, gun belt, etc. I use one in the vehicle as well with a computer for mapping and this summer picked up a second identical unit for personal foot use. Practicing with it beforehand is a must. Once you understand how to follow a reverse trail you will never stay lost as long as you have batteries and  sufficient satellite signal. And yes the GPS has to be working, so don't drop it, etc.

As for other survival gear we have loads of it in the Jeep, including sleeping bags. And we each have a small backpack with assorted gear. I find that cans of Sterno fuel are convenient emergency heat sources. I have some in the Jeep. I carry a small MSR stove (12 oz. without fuel) in my backpack, or rather in a strapon bag attached to the pack. A small bottle of fuel adds about a pound. It'll burn just about anything, white gas, unleaded gas, avgas, kerosene and with a jet change (simple to do) diesel or jet fuel. That's probably the best winter accessory I ever bought. It's over 25 years old now. We've used it on simple hikes and cross country ski trips to make a hot drink too. It's stored in a small titanium pot with lid. Good water proof matches are a must. As well I carry a virtually windproof butane lighter. It's more like a small butane torch with adjustable flame, waterproof, piezo igniter.

Dry wool socks and gloves are a must so we have spares. Not much will ruin your day quicker than wet socks because your feet won't warm up. Ditto gloves/fingers.

[peternap]

Tanya...he/they should have a knife. If nothing else, just a simple pocket knife. That is the number one survival tool anywhere.
Instead of wasting fire melting snow, teach him to eat snow a little at a time whenever he's out. People that say "Oh it'll lower your core temperature', don't know what they're talking about. When I was a Ski instructor, all of us including the ski patrol did it and got the idea from people that spend their entire lives in snow country.

Include a space blanket in your kit and your ready to go.

[MaineRhino]

Check out this story of a hunter lost in the woods in Weld, Maine. This is just a few miles North of our camp.

http://morningsentinel.mainetoday.com/news/local/4540635.html

The two lessons I learned from him are,

1: Lost is only a state of mind.
2: Emergency kits only help if you remember to carry it with you!

[tanya]

Yes I think the "carry it with you" is the issue with my son he even complains about my tiny little safety kit because he says it hurts when he falls etc...  I know I could never get him to carry a small stove or sterno.  That is the problem with that age group they often think they are invincible.  A knife goes without saying he carries one of those often just because everyone does.  When he was still in high school that was an issue because i had to keep reminding him to leave it home the darn weirdos have got everybody so spooked that bringing even a small pocket knife to school will get you in big trouble.  I would never ever head out inthe woods without matches and a lighter both even in summer the mountains are COLD and I have been stuck often enough to know that I don't like being cold.   My car has a totally different set up with fresh water, duck tape all kinds of good stuff. 

[MountainDon]

Hmmmm. I'm of the mind that eating snow in any appreciable amount is going to do more harm than good. There's no doubt that melting snow requires heat. If you're eating snow or sucking on ice in appreciable amounts, that heat comes from within the body. That's going to cool you off. 

More years ago than I care to recount I took a course on Arctic survival. (I will admit right up front that things do change; maybe this theory has.) The course was presented by the RCAF as a prerequisite for flying on search and rescue missions in the northern winter weather. They made kind of a big deal about not eating snow without first melting it. Yes, melting snow takes a lot of fuel. If you eat snow that fuel is your body.

You need a lot of snow to make water, something like 17:1 or so. It's better to melt ice. If melting snow it's very easy to burn a hole in the pot. It's best to prime the pot with a little water and keep the heat low until there's enough water for the snow or ice to float in.

FYI, If water is in short supply you should curtail your food consumption, even if you have lots of food. Food needs water to digest and your body will steal water to process it that you can't afford to lose. Better to be a little bit hungry if water is in short supply.

Another thing that a lot of people believe is that if there's nothing else to drink you should drink your urine. Not so. Not because it's gross. The reason is the high salt and mineral content of urine. In a survival situation where water has been in short supply your urine becomes darker in color and more concentrated. If you drink the urine your body has to reprocess all those salts and get rid of them again. To do so your body will again steal water you can't afford to lose in a survival situation.

Best to always carry water. We frequently end up carrying water out and back without consuming it all.

I know it's maybe next to impossible to convince a "know it all I'm invincible" teen (or older) of the potential dangers. Fortunately most of us survive our incredible youthful stupidity and grow up.

Another winter/water thing to remember is that it's best to prevent perspiring by having layers so you can dress up or down as conditions change. Not getting over heated and sweating is even better than having water to drink. The opposite situation in summer which is a whole other potential survival situation, especially here in the desert southwest.

[peternap]

The trick to eating snow is to do it constantly Don. If you watch ski patrol people, every time they stop they grab a small handful and let it melt in their mouth. I did it every day and it never chilled me a bit.

You are very right about urine so remember.....NEVER...eat the yellow snow   

[MountainDon]

Ok, Nanook     I'll go along with the handful of snow at a time thing. But only if you're active and happy and know what's going on. And I'd still rather drink water. I'm so used to carrying water at all times that it's second nature.

But that is a different kettle of fish than being stuck out in the snow someplace and not knowing when or how you're going to get out of there. In that situation I would maintain keeping as warm as possible is priority one. And that's when I'd rather have water or melted snow/ice to drink than be chewing snow. 

Of course the best thing yet would be to not get in those predicaments. But crap does happen, like the time the truck battery decided to give up the ghost about 10 miles from the nearest other person who could help. And he had settled in for a good winters night drunk so to be of no use at all. 

[peternap]

But that is a different kettle of fish than being stuck out in the snow someplace and not knowing when or how you're going to get out of there. In that situation I would maintain keeping as warm as possible is priority one. And that's when I'd rather have water or melted snow/ice to drink than be chewing snow.  Wink


Your right Don!
It also depends on the region. All my experience has been in the Southeast where even the mountain conditions are less severe than someplace in the Rockies. Arctic type conditions I've been through were limited to my Skiing years.
I used to wander around the mountains for days or weeks at a time with very little in my pack, but again, things were fairly mild. I was in the Civil Air Patrol for a while and most searches were just a matter of hiking in, airlifting the people out and hiking back out.

[MountainDon]

Right on Peter. I forgot about regional differences. 

My northern experiences frequently had temperatures dipping to MINUS 30 degrees F. You're really on the edge down there.

[Homegrown Tomatoes]

 ???Here's my idea of winter safety:  migrate south for the winter.

[glenn kangiser]

Haven't learned your lesson yet, Homegrown Move South.

[MountainDon]

Somewhere in this thread I mentioned a virtually wind proof light. I didn't have a photo handy then. Here's the beauty. Colibri is the brand, lightweight, water proof with lid on, windproof to 80 mph, adjustable butane fed torch like flame that still works at 13,000 feet. Not your average Bic disposable.



There are also other brands available. Brunton is one.

[Willy]

Somewhere in this thread I mentioned a virtually wind proof light. I didn't have a photo handy then. Here's the beauty. Colibri is the brand, lightweight, water proof with lid on, windproof to 80 mph, adjustable butane fed torch like flame that still works at 13,000 feet. Not your average Bic disposable.



There are also other brands available. Brunton is one.

Just went out and took this picture. Good time to test/try that lighter out for that rip roaring fire to get warm with in the snow! Mark

[glenn kangiser]

That's way too much snow, Mark.  Please keep it there.

[Willy]

That's way too much snow, Mark.  Please keep it there.

I also think so, it is becoming a harsher winter this year so far. Takes longer to clean up after it each snow fall. Glad I have buildings to work inside of!! Mark

[MountainDon]

Yes, keep all that snow safely there. Do not spread around. 

Did you really take the picture by the light of one of those lighters? Or you're just presenting a challenge?

[Willy]

Yes, keep all that snow safely there. Do not spread around. 

Did you really take the picture by the light of one of those lighters? Or you're just presenting a challenge?

That was taken under my Sodium Lights to cause the yellow. Here is a picture of why you like over hangs on porches and good snow load rating around here! This is the snow that has slid off a 12 ft long section of steel roof this winter. I don't clean it up till it is over for the year and it looks like the windows will be blocked soon. We still have 2 1/2+ months of snow to go!? Mark

[Redoverfarm]

Mark do you not worry about water penetration from the melting snow that is laying against you house.  I assume you have it pretty well insulated but there has to be enough heat escape via the wall to melt what is touching.

[Willy]

Mark do you not worry about water penetration from the melting snow that is laying against you house.  I assume you have it pretty well insulated but there has to be enough heat escape via the wall to melt what is touching.

Yes it is insulated well, nice part is the snow melts away a little bit and does not touch the wood for long. Mark

[MountainDon]

Ditto. Back home when the snow would build up against a house wall the snow would melt back maybe a half inch or so, then stop. Stucco walls, never had a problem with any kind of deterioration of any kind.