Author Topic: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story  (Read 7337 times)

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Offline KJones

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KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« on: August 31, 2019, 08:52:58 AM »
I recently purchased a set of plans for the 20x30 1.5 story. I have to admit I have 3 sets of plans from different places for a 20x30.  From time to time I have checked this forum for ideas and to watched different builds. My wife and I purchased our property about 6 years ago, it is 80 acres and I've hunted this property and the neighboring 80acres for 30 plus years now. The property has been in the family for sometime, the neighboring 80 was where my great grandfather homesteaded in the late 1800's and where my father was born. At this time we have cattle on most of the property, I have an area of about 2 acres fenced off.

I had two wells drilled several years ago and a single power pole set near one well. I actually use a developed spring to water the cattle. We have a lot of springs on the property, most are marked with a sycamore tree. I have a lot of limestone to deal with, as I mentioned I'm in the flint hills. If you are curious about the flint hills you can learn more here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flint_Hills

Our build plan... Probably slower than most would like. This is a cabin/retreat for us, we have jobs and live 3 hours away so when we can we get there to work on things. I have a contractor lined up to do a footer and 4 foot stem wall this fall. I'm hoping to start building then in spring/summer of 2020. Most of the building I will do with my father he is 84 now, and I have a nephew who is a residential contractor in the area.

Anyway I'm sure I will have questions from time to time. I do have a youtube channel "Outdoor Engineer", but I'm not much of a poster.  I will share once I have something worth sharing! Wish me luck!

Offline akwoodchuck

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2019, 09:27:56 AM »
Sounds like an interesting area, and building with family is great fun...good luck!  w*
"The lyf so short, the craft so long to lerne."


Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2019, 05:11:07 AM »
Indeed,  w*

Thanks for posting that wiki link by the way.  I drove through that part of Kansas about thirty years ago on a cross-country trip and remember thinking how beautiful the limestone hills were.  Now I know what the hills are called and am looking forward to seeing some pics.
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2019, 02:27:44 AM »
Sounds like an interesting area, and building with family is great fun...good luck!  w*

I'm hoping it is, my wife probably won't get interested until the inside starts to get done. As for now I'm twiddling my thumbs patiently waiting for the contractor to get to my foundation...

Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2019, 02:36:30 AM »
Indeed,  w*

Thanks for posting that wiki link by the way.  I drove through that part of Kansas about thirty years ago on a cross-country trip and remember thinking how beautiful the limestone hills were.  Now I know what the hills are called and am looking forward to seeing some pics.

Some areas are nicer than others... Always wished I could find a place with an old limestone barn to convert to a cabin. There is one down the road from me that is three stories tall, not sure when it was built though.

The negative to my area is all the aromatic cedar we have, it grows like a weed here. So you mow, burn etc to keep it from taking over.

Yes I need to figure this picture thing out!

Spending time in Alaska is hopefully a future vacation for me, how long have you been there?


Offline ChugiakTinkerer

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2019, 05:52:13 AM »
...
Yes I need to figure this picture thing out!

Spending time in Alaska is hopefully a future vacation for me, how long have you been there?

The trick is hosting your images somewhere else and linking to them here.  The forum thread gives a little more detail: https://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=15096.0

I first came to Alaska in 1980 fresh out of high school.  I went to University of Alaska in Fairbanks and got my BS in geology, then went to Colorado for grad school.  I worked for a few years in Colorado then came back to Alaska in in 1995.  The cross-country trip I mentioned was a summer doing field research while I worked on my MS.
My cabin build thread: Alaskan remote 16x28 1.5 story

Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2019, 05:51:01 AM »
The trick is hosting your images somewhere else and linking to them here.  The forum thread gives a little more detail: https://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=15096.0

I first came to Alaska in 1980 fresh out of high school.  I went to University of Alaska in Fairbanks and got my BS in geology, then went to Colorado for grad school.  I worked for a few years in Colorado then came back to Alaska in in 1995.  The cross-country trip I mentioned was a summer doing field research while I worked on my MS.

Very cool, you have been there for a good amount of time. I have to admit I've always wondered what it would take to live there. Always imagined living and working there would better prepare someone for having a cabin there... I tried to convince my son that he should spend a summer in Alaska before starting college, he is a senior in High School now and is finishing his CNA and plans on becoming a Nurse. He has mentioned that he could live/work any where doing that, smart kid...

I have a step uncle who did a Geology degree at CSU in the 80's, but he never worked in the field.

So my property is toward the northern edge of the Flint hills just off the Oregon Trail, I think the well driller commented that he hit about 18 inches of flint/creek rock when he drilled my 2nd well. I can't remember depth but 15 to 25 feet is a ballpark on where he hit water and total depth is 50ft. There are some locations around me that you can find your typical fish fossil in limestone, nowadays people don't share that info if they have a spot. I've never looked on my place.

I've been working 12 hours shifts and weekends, so when I get a few I will figure this picture thing out, thank you for the link!!!

Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2019, 09:06:51 AM »
Just a quick update.

My concrete contractor has been hard at work, he poured a footer on Friday (Nov 15) and then dug out the crawl space and started forms on the following Monday. Forms were finished on Tuesday and they poured the walls.

I had taken the post hole auger and checked depth of the Limestone ledge that is under where I wanted to build, we are almost on top of it.

The bad is I'm going to have to wait now to start framing... I think I mentioned before I would start building in the spring or summer.

Very excited to get all this going!

Offline CabinNick

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2019, 05:18:28 PM »
We did the same thing; poured in the fall and built the next summer.  Hard to wait but exciting to finally get going!  Look forward to seeing your build.


Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2019, 08:45:12 AM »
We did the same thing; poured in the fall and built the next summer.  Hard to wait but exciting to finally get going!  Look forward to seeing your build.

Good to know who else has done that, did you have any issues caused by waiting? Outside of keeping the weeds down I can't think of any.

Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2020, 02:48:02 PM »
OK, I still haven't managed to move pictures any where but I do have some on my Instagram account. Feel free to take a look and if you have suggestions on a host for pictures that is free please let me know, thanks in advance.

Foundation pictures: https://www.instagram.com/p/B5WRi8VFFdZseK_fzaWL4M1t4itKgWcfstQLS00/

Offline azgreg

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2020, 09:07:14 AM »
When I click on your link I get: "Sorry, this page isn't available."

Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2020, 03:39:14 AM »
When I click on your link I get: "Sorry, this page isn't available."

Well that's disappointing... I will fix it tonight, to many filters at work so I can't even see most of the pics people post when I'm at work.

Thanks for letting me know!

Offline pmichelsen

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2020, 02:18:07 PM »
Feel free to take a look and if you have suggestions on a host for pictures that is free please let me know, thanks in advance.

I've been using postimage.org since photobucket went south, seems to work alright.


Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2020, 03:47:03 AM »
I've been using postimage.org since photobucket went south, seems to work alright.

Good deal I will check it out!

Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2020, 04:27:03 PM »
Ok, finally got time to add some pictures.

OK so this is the spot, better pictures will follow... I went 2 years looking at these posts, moving them North to South, East and West. Starting with a 12x16 eventually ending up with a 20x30 footprint...




Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2020, 04:32:38 PM »
I'm just going to jump in here

Footer down and rebar in waiting for walls





Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #17 on: March 10, 2020, 04:41:46 PM »
Walls done and backfill complete






The left side of the foundation the dirt is probably 8" to 10" below the top of the wall. Since this picture was taken we have done a lot of dirt work on this side of the foundation, mostly to reroute the drainage from the hill and have drive/parking area.



Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2021, 08:42:53 AM »
Hello everyone, been awhile since I posted. The last year has been crazy and while I had hoped to start building last spring and summer COVID pulled a good block on me.

So I do have a question for everyone, maybe there is an answer somewhere and I'm missing it. I recently submitted some paperwork to see what a set of Scissor trusses would cost me, 12:12 outside, 10:12 inside.

I have seen one other 1.5story do that, but curious what everyone's thoughts are concerning use a scissor truss and why more people are not using some like that. Maybe its just personal preference for some...

Hope everyone is doing well.

Offline Don_P

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2021, 08:57:08 AM »
Scissors work fine and are a much better alternative to the "too high tie", or as one engineer calls it "the rafter buster". There is one caveat, look at the horizontal displacement on the truss drawings, scissors still deflect horizontally under load pushing outward on the walls. They are more flexible than a straight bottom chorded truss. The first pass through the truss designer is going to be cost conscious. Look at the deflection, if it is excessive have him run it again stiffening the truss up and see if it is cost effective to do so. One way to stiffen cheapest is to lower the internal pitch, but that is often not practical. The next is to use heavier or stiffer members, that is when the cost rises.


Offline Nate R

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2021, 03:02:08 PM »
The first pass through the truss designer is going to be cost conscious. Look at the deflection, if it is excessive have him run it again stiffening the truss up and see if it is cost effective to do so. One way to stiffen cheapest is to lower the internal pitch, but that is often not practical. The next is to use heavier or stiffer members, that is when the cost rises.

What would you consider excessive horizontal deflection in a scissors truss? I have no idea.... Span/360? Just curious, as it's not something I thought much about in my build.

I have a spec sheet for my 20' span 3/6:12 field scissor trusses that, when at 27" OC, show a horizontal deflection of 0.28" for example.

Offline Reninco

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2021, 03:48:32 PM »
Hello Nate:
Code and most design folks use these deflections as minimums
Roof beams and roof framing: 1” for every 180”
Wall framing: 1” for every 240”
Floor framing: 1” for every 360”

For floors “bounce” is a consideration…most folks start at 1” for every 400” (111% of code)
For bounce elimination 1” for every 450 (125% of code)
Most of the regular span tables are based on those figures…

If you already have a spec sheet and it does say max deflection of .28” (I feel you’re reading the right figure) those are pretty good trusses deflection wise and I wouldn’t lose any sleep tonight.
The general idea is you don't want to crack brittle finishes (plaster/drywall mudded joints etc.) so the deflection rates follow these minimums. 
I do have one other comment but I would have to see the truss drawings before commenting further.

Offline KJones

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2021, 08:28:15 AM »
Scissors work fine and are a much better alternative to the "too high tie", or as one engineer calls it "the rafter buster". There is one caveat, look at the horizontal displacement on the truss drawings, scissors still deflect horizontally under load pushing outward on the walls. They are more flexible than a straight bottom chorded truss. The first pass through the truss designer is going to be cost conscious. Look at the deflection, if it is excessive have him run it again stiffening the truss up and see if it is cost effective to do so. One way to stiffen cheapest is to lower the internal pitch, but that is often not practical. The next is to use heavier or stiffer members, that is when the cost rises.

Thanks for the advice, when I get the build sheet I will look for that detail.

Offline Nate R

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2021, 04:11:28 AM »
Hello Nate:

If you already have a spec sheet and it does say max deflection of .28” (I feel you’re reading the right figure) those are pretty good trusses deflection wise and I wouldn’t lose any sleep tonight.
I do have one other comment but I would have to see the truss drawings before commenting further.

Reninco: Thanks for that! I wasn't losing sleep over it, just haven't seen it discussed. Figured it was mostly too late to worry about mine, anyway.  ;D
I'm curious about your other comment......so here's the drawing for my field trusses:


Offline Reninco

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Re: KS Flint Hills 20x30 1.5 story
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2021, 07:43:49 AM »
Thanks for posting the spec sheet.
In truss manufacture there are some got-ya’s that some designers use as to make the bid “more competitive” as Don_P was referring to. In your case no worries but for the rest of the readers I’ll mention the things that one should look for or might be of interest.
==
9. Are these designed to any code? Yes Is it referenced? Yes
1. What is the roof load? 41 lb/ft How is it referenced? By soil load What is that load? 60 lb/ft
2. Deflection for LL live load and TL is given
3,7,8. What is the bottom cord (your ceiling) load and is it realistic to the “size and span”? Apply rigid (drywall) or if not install bracing 10’ oc.
4. Horizontal deflection is .29 (or about a ¼ inch)
5. Reactions (what pushes and where it pushes) is a horizonal force of 70 lbs (see posts above for deflection discussion) this force is captured by the fasteners - see 5a below.
5a. Uplift maximum is 155 lbs at the wall plate: note you should use tie-plates or plate screws for this and not “toe-nails”. (see spec sheet note #11 - provide mechanical connection)
6. Was wind used in the design? Yes How was wind force arrived at? By code values, Is it a local value? Yes
7,8 Were bottom cord loads considered? Yes How was the load determined? By typical code limits Were odd loadings considered? Yes
9. Code given by type and year
1a. Wood (your truss) dead load TCDL is also given and it’s a realistic value.
10. Is the actual wood size specified? Yes Is the grade referenced Yes – by fiber value and modulus In every member? Yes What grades? #1, #2, Stud grade Even the top purlins? Yes #2
===
What is missing or might not be shown
11. To actually attach a roof and ridge cap you’ll need an additional purlin at the ridge
11a. Purlin fastener schedule that is compatible with shear and uplift loads is not mentioned in the spec sheet. Hot dipped galvanized 2-16d driven at a slight angle usually will work for this but it is not stated in the spec’s
12. Blocking is needed between trusses at the plate line
13. An “end” purlin or tall facia will be needed to capture the last plane of the roof 





 

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