Finally underway! My upstate NY 20 x 40 off-grid gets started

Sassy · November 30, 2011, 03:15:47 PM

Adirondoc, everything looks great

Glenn says all you need now is a zipline from your hunting stand

AdironDoc · December 01, 2011, 11:09:48 AM

Thanks, Sassy. Boards are stained and go up later this month followed by birch flooring. BTW, I like Glenn's idea. It actually beats my idea of hanging vines in each tree back to the cabin. I could swoop down on a deer like Rambo with a knife in my teeth. More likely, I'll end up looking like the Santa that failed at rappelling in at the mall. Think I'll keep my feet on the ground!

December 04, 2011, 09:15:00 AM

I'd had high hopes this summer that my two propane fired on-demand water heaters would be as awesome as the ads proclaimed. Sadly, the first, albeit an entry level model, failed to trigger, ran water ranging from ice water to scalding all in one run, and couldn't keep a steady temp. It lasted three months before failing to ignite at all. The second, a larger unit, was much better, but also suffered from what others have called a "cold water sandwich", in the middle of an otherwise enjoyable shower. Tragically, even with the drain plug opened, it seems the unit was damaged by a freeze. That led me to do a bit of research on these on-demand type of heaters and found at least a few articles that seemed to show maybe the benefits are far short of the claims made.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/appliances/heating-cooling-and-air/water-heaters/tankless-water-heaters/overview/tankless-water-heaters-ov.htm

Here's a few lines from consumer reports:
" they [on demand] cost much more than storage water heaters, it can take up to 22 years to break even—longer than the 20-year life of many models"

"We didn't test electric tankless heaters because many can't deliver hot water fast enough to replace a conventional water heater if groundwater is cold". Yes, like the 33 degree water in my storage tank.

"inconsistent water temperatures were a common complaint among our poll respondents", "you'll receive a momentary "cold-water sandwich" between the old and new hot water." Don't I know it.. Try showering in 45 degree bathroom only to get doused with ice water for a moment. "Adding a storage tank can resolve some of these problems, but most people go with tankless because they want to get rid of tanks."

"a tankless water heater's burner might not ignite when you try to get just a trickle of hot water for, say, shaving". Yeah, or perhaps trying to ration water from my precious 55 gallon rain barrel.

I'm planning on building a small dog house shed up against the back of the guest cabin next weekend. I'll super insulate it and install a 38 gallon shorty electric heater with storage tank and wrap an additional blanket on it. A switch goes on when I arrive and turns off when I leave at the end of my stay. The unit, being the lowest point, will drain easily at a single point. Perhaps it's been said before, but sometimes the tried and true stuff is best. I'm looking forward to a nice hot shower.

Cheers,
Doc

duncanshannon · December 04, 2011, 09:26:08 AM

Great info doc - thanks for sharing! I've been wanting a tankless - cause it sounds like it should be great. Apparently not!

Fwiw, I put a lot of stock (and $$) into amazon based on their product ratings. Also, gotta love their Prime for shipping etc. also great (online) customer support inc. returns. Treadmills to toothpaste!

AdironDoc · December 04, 2011, 10:32:25 AM

Thanks Duncan. I've been an Amazon Prime member since last year. I've recommended it to everyone I know. My solar panel, log splitter, and a bunch of other things, all shipped for free. I must have saved hundreds this year on shipping alone. No taxes, no mall lines, and I love getting my things two days later. You can't beat it with a stick! I also watch Amazon's free movies and videos, and lately, use my kindle to "borrow" books from their online lending library.

I've had Lowe's reject some of my reviews if they are less than perfect, while others have been more critical but allowed. Not sure what their policy is. I actually rely on online communities like country plans for more in depth info on major purchases. I wish there was a bona-fide online review section here as well for the things I think we've all needed for our cabins.

Well, I'm going out back to put together the walls of the future shed. Cheers, and thanks for the reply!

Glenn

December 04, 2011, 10:36:50 AM

Doc - Thank You! Good report on important information. I'm going to add this link to the reference section so it will be easier to find.

Tankless heaters are great space savers but a small undercounter tank model may be a better choice for small cabins.

Link to Reference thread: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=11588.msg148797#msg148797

AdironDoc · December 04, 2011, 05:55:44 PM

Thanks, John. I've been trying to really get right down to the crux of the matter for a while now. Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I now gather, clearly, both on-demand heaters and conventional tank heaters both heat water as a function. Both will require similar energy to heat a given amount of water a given degree. The savings and efficiency lies in what happens when we're not using the water as opposed to using it. So if you're gone for a month, and turn off your conventional water heater, there is no net difference in energy use or efficiency. When the units are both heating water for immediate use, there is also no difference in energy used. So it would seem the real differences occur during periods where, say, there is the anticipation of future use. As I and many others spend the weekend at the camp, then head home for 2 weeks, a conventional heater would stay off until I got there, rivaling an on-demand for its zero energy consumption. Only for the 3 days at camp would there be much difference, and then, it would be an on-demand heater with it's theoretically stellar efficiency, vs. keeping a 30 gallon tank hot. With excellent insulation, the tank would increase it's efficiency. That narrows the game considerably. Cheaper, easier to repair and drain, vs. space saving, and high efficiency. The efficiency disadvantage over a three day period, twice monthly adds up to a few dollars I'd gather. For me, that's just not something worth crowing about.

John Raabe · December 04, 2011, 07:53:48 PM

Yes the advantage of the tankless system lies in the elimination of the standby losses - when the tank is heated up and losing heat that isn't helping heat water. Another advantage is that you do not have to heat the tank water up to temp before you can use hot water. You can use it more quickly.

If you have the tank on only a few days a month and turn it off between visits then the standby losses are not a big deal. The running costs of the tank and tankless systems would likely be close. The better the tank and the pipes are insulated the lower the standby losses so the difference becomes even less. On the other hand, leaving the tank on could result in 30% or more of the water heating cost going into standby losses.

http://oikos.com/library/energy_outlet/water_heaters.html - more info here.

Alan Gage · December 04, 2011, 08:48:53 PM

I read an account online (so it must be true, right?) of someone who hooked a Kill-A-Watt meter to their electric water heater to measure the standby losses. They were surprisingly little. It was something like $20/year to just leave it plugged in but not use any water. I just did a quick search online and came up with similar numbers. Maybe not even worth it to disconnect and drain.

Alan

January 09, 2012, 02:33:36 PM

An unusually warm January weekend allowed a trip North and to finish some stonework behind the woodstove. My yellow birch trees were milled, dried, and made ready. Birch floor went down and initial two coats of poly applied. Pine boards are going up. Decided on a light tan stain that brings out the grain, and beveled the ends to get away from the common T&G look. Turned my attention to the stone wall and had no problems getting the stones onto the scratch coat. I ran out of cultured stones so I used around 40% real stones found in the creek and around the cabin. I was worried about how the mortar pointing would turn out since I'd never done anything like it before. Turned out what first looked terrible/sloppy ended well after scraping with a pointing tool and stiff brush. I was pleased that the actual stones added realism and variety. With the floor down and walls going up it's starting to look less like a garage and more like a cozy space.

Can you tell which stones are cultured and which are real? Sometimes I couldn't.

I felt like a pastry chef and when it was over, my hands were sore from all the squeezing the grout bag.

Done for the weekend.

nysono · January 10, 2012, 06:23:17 AM

Very sharp!! I will be doing similar stone work behind our stove too and Im sure I will be asking a few questions (having never done it either). Congratulations on a job well done.

mogie01 · January 10, 2012, 01:05:27 PM

Your place is really coming along, I love the river rock. We also plan on doing something like that behind our wood burning stove. Great job!!

AdironDoc · January 10, 2012, 01:15:21 PM

Thanks! It's been a labor of love and a "learn as you go". Fun fun fun

AdironDoc · February 01, 2012, 09:09:22 AM

Still working, despite the snow. Funny to see the 2 mile trail in was actually plowed. Last year I was up at camp until last week of December. This winter it seems I'll keep at it as long as I can get in. Guest camp got a utility pole at the roadway, 300ft primary line and transformer box, and 250ft secondary trench. Dad and I built the meter pan framing ready to put in the ground when the backhoe is here again. All the boards we stained are up. It's the bedrooms next, followed by doors. Some small amount of water seems to have gotten into the conduit from the house to the solar panel rack making wiring it impossible until it thaws. In the meantime, wiring the cabin is in full swing. Breaker panel, inverter, solar charge controller, and batteries all arranged and mounted.

Future kitchen:

Not much snow this year:

An old pine log outside that became a mantle. While it didn't have the bark, it does have worm grooves and knots. I'll stain it slightly darker for more effect. A chevron pattern in the pine boards gave a break from all the horizontals and pulls the eye to the center of the room.

Loft:

The boards had to be scribed to fit in and around every log. The small stuff takes much longer.

February 01, 2012, 01:13:01 PM

What's up Doc? I know that's corny but I couldn't help myself. (new poster here; fooling around seems to be well tolerated) I adore the way you used the logs. And the openess of the main floor living space is wonderful. I'd want lots of lights so I could see the handiwork better at night.

A bit counterproductive when you're using sun power. $:-\$

mnboatman · February 01, 2012, 01:21:25 PM

It looks great and gives me inspiration to tackle something bigger! Maybe this summer.

nysono · February 02, 2012, 06:33:24 AM

looks very nice, Im glad you are still able to get in to camp with a vehicle. This winter is one for the records so far. Keep up the good work I definately get ideas from looking at your project.

Steve

Swamphunter · February 02, 2012, 04:59:07 PM

All I've got to say is WOW!!!!!!!!!!

Swamphunter · February 02, 2012, 05:00:51 PM

I must ask, what did you use for the flooring in the upstairs loft?

Alan Gage · February 02, 2012, 05:08:10 PM

Looks real nice. I like the short pieces of vertical T&G at the top of the walls.

Alan

February 22, 2012, 09:27:28 AM

Upstairs flooring is pine T&G that makes up the subflooring. It's supported only by the logs below. There is nothing on top of it. What made this nice was that from below, it looks finished, and after sanding and poly, it's finished on top as well. That saved alot of time and hassle.

Thanks Alan, it was easier to scribe the pine boards vertically to fit around the logs since I didn't need to pound the last T&G in place with the log's greater middle diameter in the way.

My yellow birch became my downstairs flooring. Cut 2" for main living area, and 4" in bedrooms. I had it cut so as to bring out as much "curl" as possible and was pleased with the results. You can see the curls on the photo below.

4" in the bedrooms gave a little change to the 2" used elsewhere.

AdironDoc · February 22, 2012, 09:34:48 AM

National Grid dropped the primary and transformer in despite frozen ground. I was able to lay out the remaining 250ft of service entrance cable with dad, who helped put up the meter pan and breaker panel. Next step, get the temporary service certificate and do the breaker panel in the guest cabin.

$2500 to drop a pole and get 300ft of primary, $1700 for the 500 ft of trench, $600 for 300ft of 100 amp service cable, and a couple hundred for meter pan, breaker panel, conduit, etc.. Gosh! It really adds up... but what can I do?

AdironDoc · February 22, 2012, 09:53:50 AM

We spent our first night at the main cabin this last weekend. No propane heaters here, only the wood stove. Temps were in the 20's overnight and 40's during the day. I must say, the stove heated the cabin beautifully, but as suspected in my original design, the two bedrooms in the back were cold, but not bad enough to bother dad, who slept in the bunk. I'll be hanging the 60" ceiling fan from the log in main room, over the wood stove. Hopefully, this will circulate enough air to raise the bedroom temps a few degrees. I stayed upstairs and found it very warm.. maybe a bit too warm for my taste.

Looking past the kitchen, you can see the doorways to the bedrooms. I scored the white gas range from craigs list. $180 for stove and 100lb tank. Money saved and less junk in a land fill. I hadn't filled the tank and have no line or regulator yet, so cooking had to be done on the wood stove. No problem!

Ran a 14-2 wire behind the log to the kitchen and put in a track. Three copper lights with floods for the kitchen. At 13W each CFL, that's not too bad.

I had agonized over the color of the pine T&G boards. I just didn't want to go with the same very light natural look I see on virtually every cabin wall (including my guest cabin), so I went with early american stain. The darker look brought out more grain, gave it a darker, more rustic appearance that I was looking for. I was happy with the way it came out.

Can't wait until spring, when I can really get under way!

umtallguy · February 22, 2012, 10:39:06 AM

I love the logs. is this a 30x30?

I take it the logs were lifed with a crane?

Made out of logs with one cut take of the top to thickenss them easily?

Rob_O · February 22, 2012, 10:39:50 AM

Quote from: AdironDoc on February 22, 2012, 09:34:48 AMGosh! It really adds up... but what can I do?

Yes, it adds up quick. Utility wanted $5.83 a foot to do the job, I saved about $2/ft doing the ditch work myself. Hoping and praying they will have the meter in place by next weekend so I can have a little heat in my trailer