Where do you stand?

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks John, and very true.  I also always liked Ben Stein.  I always try to look at things differently and find that knowledge and understanding may come of it.  I try not to specialize but to get a better look at the whole subject.  Not saying any other way is wrong though.

If more people went by the ten commandments, there would be few problems.  I am not saying I am for or against church or religion.  I am saying I am against religion for profit or forwarding of a man's ministry over that of God's.  I feel we are all insignificant and no man is above others.

I have tried to contact some Muslim friends from the net for comment.  Can't promise anything.

I will take God at his word.  Of men I am not as trusting.

Stink, I agree with you 100% on your Santa policy.   ... however all may do as they wish and I will not think less of them... it is the way they have been raised.  Seems hard to break away from traditions and beliefs you grew up in, eh?

Andrew, My uncle and most relatives in Oregon were Catholic.  I did not agree with all of their beliefs but respected them for being good upstanding people. 

One uncle undertook to populate Oregon on his own- Uncle Gilbert had 9 kids I believe.  He was  one of my favorite uncles and his kids were some of the best.  They homesteaded similar to you.  I still remember the cream separator, banty chickens, Fourth of July, chores and the always worn to a frazzle tired look in his eyes, but he always had a kind word for us kids.

Jens, thank you  - you are right... always the rebel since I was born - always taking a diverging view and hoping to stimulate good discussion, networking and sharing of knowledge and even a bit of twisted humor.  My own grandfather (mom's dad) called me a spoiled brat.  My.... how things change...

For those of you who celebrate Festivus, I hope to stimulate airing of grievances.

Oh -- BTW, I got my cord repaired...

[Whitlock]

All interesting post. I for one like when a topic runs a muck. How much can be posted on the same subject after it has been up for days anyway?I also like that the forum hardly has any censorship and the folks on here keep it clean.
Lets not forget this is a building forum.

Later,W

[Jens]

We have kept the Santa thing going with our kids.  I have struggled with the same difficulties, as far as the God/Santa thing, but then I look back at my childhood, and that of friends and family.  The Santa thing had nothing to do with my spiritual journey, that happened on its own and was inevitable IMO.  On a larger note, the Santa thing has more to do with hope and giving, I think.  It has been twisted by commercialism, but I think that deep down the reason that Santa is such an enduring figure, is that we are reminded of love, reward for good behavior (parents need to use that part more, us included), and the Christmas spirit of making people happy.  That last part, unfortunately, is the part I was reffering to as being twisted, to where it now means piles of gifts. 

We bought/made two things for each of our kids from us.  Santa gave them each two little things.  We are not big on big gifts, but try to keep it about the spirit of giving, which seems to show up in the fact that our children love to give things to people.  The two oldest, have decided to give their $5 they got from Great Grandma, to a fund our church is building to buy a cow for a village in Haiti.  We have been very blessed to have such selfless children, who truly understand the joy of giving.  I don't personally know of anyone who's ability or willingness to believe in God has been effected by believing in Santa.  It seems that kids genuinely accept the things their parents say as truth, so if we say there is a Santa Claus, and there is a God, they believe.  When they stop believing in Santa, that doesn't mean that they question everything you ever told them.  After all, they would end up thinking that they won't really get hurt if they fall out of that tree, or that car runs them over.

Plus, I am Danish, and Santa is a Scandinavian.  I haven't told them that Valhalla and Thor are real, but there is no counterpart for Santa...except maybe Hanuka Harry!

Merry, Christmas, officially!

[wildbil]

"Life of Pi" just read it. If you want a great story with a great religious theme, please read. If you like tigers, please read.

[glenn kangiser]

No offense at all Jens, but if Santa is presented as truth and the kids are taught that, then comes the time when they are older and they are finally allowed to know that Santa is a lie, he is not real -- he is a made up story from dubious sources of the past...

What about God.  We tell the kids the Bible is his word.  He is the Creator.  The kids come to believe all of the stories....they grow up and then Santa turns out to be a lie....

Are we not teaching them that black is white and white is black and causing some of the confusion with God?

[Flutterby]

My hubby and I have had made the choice not lie to our child about Santa. I could never understand as a child myself and find it even more confusing that a society participates in a lie. How can I tell lie to my child  that their is a santa, not only lie to him but it seems the western world will help me lie to him. To have him discover that santa is lie. How do I then tell him that you are right there is no santa son, but God exist. How would/could he believe me when I tell him about God? Especially when western society has already decided that God is not even welcomed in our schools.

I know this is a very unpopular view, I have even been told I am unamerican for this view and laughably been told I was unchristian.

Wow Stinkerbell, I really respect this decision you made. When my kids were little I didn't really see this as a lie; but now I do and if I could do it over I would do it a lot different. My kids turned out great nonetheless; even though I lied to them about Santa, the tooth fairy and the Easter bunny, etc.

[MountainDon]

Santa Claus. The Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, Frosty the Snowman. I recall as a child lumping them all together with other mythical, magical creatures and stories as Peter and the Wolf, Hansel and Gretel, Peter Pan and so on.

[Jens]

No offense at all Jens, but if Santa is presented as truth and the kids are taught that, then comes the time when they are older and they are finally allowed to know that Santa is a lie, he is not real -- he is a made up story from dubious sources of the past...

What about God.  We tell the kids the Bible is his word.  He is the Creator.  The kids come to believe all of the stories....they grow up and then Santa turns out to be a lie....

Are we not teaching them that black is white and white is black and causing some of the confusion with God?

As I said, I don't remember correlating the two, or feeling misguided or lied to in terms of Santa or any of the fairies.  The doubt that I had about God came much later in life than any of the other figures, and had nothing to do with my Mom.  I can only speak for myself with regard to this, but I don't recall hearing about anybodys faith in God coming into question because of Santa Claus.  There are a great many figures that our parents tell us about when we are children, and when we are children we believe, but as we stop believing because we see Mom put the stuff in our stocking, our money being exchanged for a tooth, etc, they do come clean and say that it is just a tale to make kids happy (or other reasons).  I have yet to hear from a single person in my life, that when they questioned the existence of God, their parents responded in the same way.

It is still lying, and tale telling, but my point is that I don't think it is damaging to a child.  I think the damaging part of childhood has more to do with impressing upon them the "necessity" of material possessions, not letting children suffer hardships, hiding natural parts of life (even as simple as birth, life, and death), and not stressing compassion and mercy.  That is the knife that cuts through the fabric of our society.  The fact that from a young age we are inundated with such an astonishing amount of media telling us what is needed in this life, and how to succeed.  How you need to keep up with the Joneses, and get more, more, more, and it doesn't matter who you screw over in the process as long as you succeed. 

As Jesus said to the Pharisees, you miss the larger picture.  I would much rather teach my kids about love, kindness, and giving, by telling them a tall tale about a fat man from up north, than release them into the world without a sense for those things.  That would be a greater disservice than lying to them by telling them Santa is real.

One thing I forgot above, God is the only one of the figures mentioned who has documented proof, in multiple religions, multiple regions, and throughout history.  God is not something you have faith in.  God is not something you believe in.  You have faith, and believe in things that you have no proof of.  You must KNOW God...IMO.   

[Ernest T. Bass]

I would much rather teach my kids about love, kindness, and giving, by telling them a tall tale about a fat man from up north, than release them into the world without a sense for those things.  That would be a greater disservice than lying to them by telling them Santa is real.

Well, we have nothing against tall tales and fictional stories with good morals; they make great family time! But why the need to stress that Santa really exists? Why not let 'em know right off the bat that its just a story? I never felt like I missed out on anything... My parents were taught that Santa was real when they were young. My dad says that he felt cynical of everything that his parents told him when he found out otherwise... I guess it can vary from kid to kid.

Some Santa believers who later came to know God in their lives weren't necessarily brought up in a very Christian home, so faith in God has nothing to do with their parents teachings.. Don't know if that applies to anyone here, but I'm sure it is often the case. 

[Jens]

If seriously confronted, we would tell them the truth.  We would pull them aside, so as not to ruin the illusion for everyone else.  I think it is a fun, and healthy (or at least not unhealthy) thing for kids.  Most people I know are cynical anyway.  I think that has more to do with the person, and other outside influences in their life, personally.  Please keep in mind too, that I am not trying to argue a point for the sake of argument, or changing anyone elses point of view, just stating the opinion and thoughts of a simple man.  In modern society, I think that we focus too much on the periphery, instead of taking care of the center.  This includes some psychoanalysis.  I think that much of the time, people end up believing what a "professional" says they believe, and don't examine things enough for themselves.  I have seen it with many of my friends.  Their ideas about what is wrong with them change depending upon which "doctor" they are seeing, which drug they are taking, etc.  I wasn't around 100 years ago, but I don't think that we would be hearing discussion about the harmful nature of Santa.  The more important matter, is whatever we are doing to make our children think and feel what they do, or rather not think or feel, needs to change if we are to have hope of restoration as people of God. 

BTW, I'm pretty sure that at least our nine year old already knows, but is playing along with the ruse because it is FUN.   I did the same thing, and have never lost enjoyment with the Santa thing.  Maybe I am just more simple minded, or liken unto a child than most, I don't know.  I think that it would be very interesting though to find out when commercialism first started to take Jesus' day away from him. 

[StinkerBell]

I sat my older kids down many many moons ago and told them they came from a dysfunctional family. If the understand and accept it now they will be saving them self thousands of dollars in therapy bills when they get older.

[Whitlock]

We are all on a dysfunctional forum.There now we can all save money by not needing therapy[cool]

To tell you the truth I think the forum is therapeutic.

And moderators you have my permission to fix my spelling anytime,Whitlock



Done... 

[MountainDon]

Everyone has dysfunctionality in some way, some hide it, some flaunt it.   

[Whitlock]

Thanks Don!!! I guess some of my dysfunctionality is spelling
and hanging out with Glenn

[glenn kangiser]

  I'm the only thing keeping this world together-- I am the hub --- ask Sassy...

[glenn kangiser]

... and Stinky loves me for it as I make her feel normal...

[wildbil]

" 'Life of Pi' just read it. If you want a great story with a great religious theme, please read. If you like tigers, please read. "

Seems everyone passed over this comment as not having anything to do with this conversation? This book basically teaches us that there is truth in every religion and that God can speak in different languages as to reach more people, languages to God being religions to us.

As for Santa, I have never once associated Santa with God. Truthfully, you can teach your kids whatever you want and try to have them follow you beliefs. My parents force-fed me the catholic faith my entire young life. I went through a period where I was annoyed to hear anything about religion, faith, God, Jesus and openly mocked people around me who believed in such things. Eventually I came back around and now regularly talk to God in prayers, although I still don't attend church. I feel a good parent will sit their child down when they are old enough and say:"look child, this is what I believe, this is how I interpret my faith, this is how others interpret their faith. You are free to explore and learn what you feel is right." Don't worry, once you tap their interest and provide a solid role model, God will take care of the rest.

[Ernest T. Bass]

My parents force-fed me the catholic faith my entire young life. I went through a period where I was annoyed to hear anything about religion, faith, God, Jesus and openly mocked people around me who believed in such things.

Unfortunately, this is how my Mom was raised as well. She hated the Catholic faith because of having it forced down her throat by her parents and crabby nuns at a Catholic grade school... Sadly, many Catholics are like this. They go through all the motions to satisfy their conscience and have absolutely no heart. Think, "lukewarm"... In many ways, they are also hypocrites in what they preach vs. how they live their lives. Many Protestant Christians have much more spirit and true charity.

When my parents married they decided to settle on a faith to raise up their children in. They had no idea what religion was "right for them", but they decided on anything BUT Catholicism. Their search is another story, but it was thorough and God-inspired. I don't want offend anyone by rambling on about why all the different Christian denominations got the thumbs-down, but they ended up Catholic.

I just wanted to point out that you're not alone when it comes to resentful cradle-Catholics, wildbil. Satan has certainly made it hard to find the truth under all the surface gunk.. We feel that the Church will be much smaller and much holier in the near future...

And, not to belabor the topic of Santa, but it seems to me that he is the driving force behind the commercialization secularization of Christmas. I don't know if kids were taught that Santa really existed 100 years ago, but even if they were it wasn't so grossly blown out of proportion like it is now. Even atheists can now celebrate X-mas, because Santa and stuff is all that the holiday revolves around.

I'm not pointing fingers at any of the good folks here. I know that it is all innocently done in fun and I'm sure that Santa isn't the primary focus of your Christmas. But, in the big picture, I feel that Satan, I mean Santa, is society's biggest tool for pushing Christ out of Christmas.

I'd better shut up now... I like you guys all too much to argue with you.

[glenn kangiser]

You are a well spoken young man, Andrew.  I always value your thoughts.  

Still hate that stupid smiley? hmm  I forgot the word you used. Dorky?

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ahh.. He's not too bad. Keeps the mood light and helps prevent flame wars.

[NM_Shooter]

Hmmm... I was born a Catholic, raised a Catholic, Confirmed a Catholic, married a Catholic and am repeating the cycle with my own kids.

I also believed in Santa, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy.  Never once did I doubt my parent's teachings about God or my religion.  Maybe it was because about the time I was astute enough to figure things out, I was old enough to understand faith? 

BTW.... I still believe in Santa. 

Merry Christmas!

-f-

[Sonoran]

I missed out on a lot in this forum but I read something that I liked.  It was about Patriotism...serving your country whether or not you agree with what they are fighting for.

I started thinking about the whole idea of God being taken out of the schools and how people transfer this to the idea that our society is degernerating.  I just want to say that I think there is a difference between believing in God and teaching things that are moral in school.

Just because people take God out of school doesn't mean they are teaching the kids to "sin" or be immoral.  The whole idea becomes difficult because it is hard to know whose is what. Maybe I'm wrong, but the God that's being taken out of schools is generally considered a Christian God. But does that mean that if teachers are not allowed to allude to the idea of "God" they are not longer allowed to teach kids manners and moral living?

[StinkerBell]

I missed out on a lot in this forum but I read something that I liked.  It was about Patriotism...serving your country whether or not you agree with what they are fighting for.

I started thinking about the whole idea of God being taken out of the schools and how people transfer this to the idea that our society is degernerating.  I just want to say that I think there is a difference between believing in God and teaching things that are moral in school.

Just because people take God out of school doesn't mean they are teaching the kids to "sin" or be immoral.  The whole idea becomes difficult because it is hard to know whose is what. Maybe I'm wrong, but the God that's being taken out of schools is generally considered a Christian God. But does that mean that if teachers are not allowed to allude to the idea of "God" they are not longer allowed to teach kids manners and moral living?

The question then becomes, where do teachers get their information on what manners and moral living is?

[Sonoran]

And the thing that really gets tricky is...who is to say what is right and what's is wrong?   

It's all a matter of opinion and I don't think anyone will ever be satisfied with what is going on in school. 

Even setting all "moral" issues aside, let's say everything is worked out perfectly so everyone is happy with what their children are exposed to at school, which I feel is impossible.  Then I start thinking about the novel "Brave New World" by Aldous Huxley and can't help thinking that we are all just monkey's being taught how to push a button.  Is that really a good thing?

Tangent:

What is moral, what is right and wrong, what is "good living"?  It all really is opinion. I used to say that I would love to live back in the 1800's.  I liked the idea of being able to be with family.  But people say that it's "bad" because you do not have any "modern comforts".  Why would you want to do hard labor your whole life?  For me, I would do anything to be with the people I love.  I feel like the idea of "good living" has shifted from family affairs to money. 

So the whole idea of "where do you stand?". 
The whole idea of opinion of what is good and bad:  I think things get picked apart so much nowadays.  There is a lot of bickering and fighting over what we believe.  I believe in doing the best with what I am given and I will do my best to be happy even if schools are teaching that Saddam was an angel of God, stealing is good, beating people up with pillows is an acceptable behavior...I will still hold onto my relgion and practice it to the best of my ability.

[Redoverfarm]

And the thing that really gets tricky is...who is to say what is right and what's is wrong?   

I believe in doing the best with what I am given and I will do my best to be happy even if schools are teaching that Saddam was an angel of God, stealing is good, beating people up with pillows is an acceptable behavior...I will still hold onto my relgion and practice it to the best of my ability.

Good for you now but what about the next generation and the next.  A constant down spiral will eventiually bring you to the bottom.  I often think what this world will be once I am gone.  What will my children have to face or their children if we last that long.  Personally IMO there has been that downward spiral since the courts have removed the only thing sacred.  Somebody to look up to , to give examples, a set of rules for humanity.  You can't say that we have that now.

I am probably far from perfect but I do guage my life and the manner that I represent myself based on the way I was tought which was formed early on by my religious up bringing. This was handed down from my parents who also inheirted it from theirs in which God, the Bible and the Ten Commandments place a crucial role. 

Another Tangent:

What would it be like if everyone lived up to the Ten Commandments.  I am sure that the Goverment would have to find other ways to aggrevate the public.  But then again if they were to adhere then their would be no need.