tour of cobville

Started by paul wheaton, January 11, 2010, 12:01:21 AM

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paul wheaton

This is a whole bunch of little cob cottages featuring the artist/architect ianto evans.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qzX1jUWa_s


RainDog

 I just know I'm gonna come off as cynical and negative, and I sure don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, but I just gotta ask... What's the point?

I mean, looks to me like a bunch of middle-class background white folks playin' out in the woods, pretty much like kids, building forts and such, and being organized and supervised by older white, middle-class, "artist" hippie types.

Not that there's anything bad about that in any way, but what's good about it? Seems to me to be very similar to, say, folks who followed Maharishi Mahesh Yogi around, listening to his lectures back in the 70's. Harmless enough, and they thought they were on the forefront of some big change in the human condition too, at least they pretended to.

If anything the whole business seems a bit antithetical to what I consider the noble ideals of human progress and technological innovation. More than a few scenes in the film could have been scenes from some remote, primitive village in Cambodia or some-such, albeit with smatterings of counter-culture artistic touches scattered around. I can't help but be reminded of the romantic, yet mistaken idea of the "noble savage" and the logical conclusion of that idea, which would be that if we reject modernity, that we can somehow regain our supposed lost nobility.

I guess the main question is, as I asked above, what's good about it, aside from perhaps that it could be claimed that the project promotes public awareness of ecological issues? Is it really superior in some way to conventional modern construction?

Thanks
NE OK


paul wheaton

Cost of materials is very low. 

Ability for people without building skills to build a building is quite good.

Being there .... you can be in what you logically conclude is a small space, but it feels like a far larger space.  Therefore there is an intelligence at work that is beyond my understanding.

These buildings looked like they were fun to make.  And, as a side effect, they look fun to live in. 

If nothing else, this is a model where it makes the possibility of living mortgage free far more plausible.

While I was there, I don't remember any talk of any yogi's.  Although I did learn a lot about how fire and heat works.  And I learned a lot about rumford fireplaces and rocket mass heaters.  So, I can now heat my home with five times less wood than a conventional wood stove.  That seems like a radical advancement to me. 




glenn kangiser

Very cool, Paul.  Thanks a million for posting this.

Raindog, maybe I'm one of those old hippie types as my front porch and some of my walls are cob, because - guess what.  With the current ripoffs of the financial system and the destruction of the housing industry, lumber yards and businesses are dropping like flies.  Any of us may be reduced to learning to use our natural resources at any time, not so much because Corporate produced materials are not available at any cost, but possibly because we may not even have a job with which to buy those code promoted corporate produced materials.

I would suggest that we all take advantage of this opportunity to learn another method of providing shelter even if we don't use it.  We have all been so brainwashed into believing that the system and it's cronyism is the only way.  Our very own forefathers used the natural resources when they arrived in America in most cases.  If we do not relearn those skills we may be out in the cold when our jobs are gone.  I currently know many who are in this situation... no money to buy commercial crap from the man..... I know I'm listening.  

The homeless tent city in Fresno has increased in size by three times in the last couple of months with lots of families now there.  This information could directly benefit them yet they only camp in plastic tents on top of the mud that could provide them shelter.  Contrary to popular belief, it does not immediately melt in the rain, if the roof is covered, and it takes many years for sidewalls to wear even if rain does get them a bit.  800 year old cob homes remain in England and very old cob homes are still in ....gasp... Carmel, California - home of Clint Eastwood, and they are in the best part of town too.  Probably at least a half million a piece for them and they are also small.

Thanks again Paul.

By the way... my front porch area......Sorry the pix are so big - I don't have time to resize them right now.


Clay oven 



Wall area cob plaster with cement stabilizer - appx 7 years now on this - this is a progress pix - it got another coat.



Front door and cob frog



Cob stairs from kitchen through uphill patio at greenhouse and  shop to upper ground level.





"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

poppy

There was a documentary of sorts on the History channel (I think) Sat. night about what might happen if there was a major epidemic that wiped out so many people that society breaks down.

I didn't see the whole thing, but it was very intereting.  How do you survive and thrive when there are no jobs, no hospitals, no law, etc.?  It was "back to basics" to the max.

I tend to agree with Glenn, and not because we are both two old codgers with grey beards.  ::)  It's a matter of taking advantage of what's available and trying to do things in an efficient way.

I am certainly not a tree hugging hippie from the 1960's (and I'm guessing that neither is Glenn), but I do believe in things like using renewable resources and certainly believe in weaning ourselves from foreign oil.  c*


pagan

Ianto has a nice racket going. People pay him to build for him. And not just build, work in his gardens, maintain his compost bins, and anything else he may desire them to do for him, all the while taking their money. True, he does impart knowledge and teach skills, but cob is a long, slow process. I know a couple who built a cob home up here and it took them over three years to get to the point where they could live in it, and it's a very small place.

RainDog

 Thanks, Paul. That's a reasonable answer. I see it as fun and interesting too. Watched the video, then googled Evans and looked over his website. The rocket mass heaters are fascinating, I expressed interest in your post regarding them, and I'd certainly consider trying to build one myself in certain situations. I really hope you don't consider my questions disrespectful in any way, as the truth is quite opposite. I question because I am interested. Please keep up your posts, they're appreciated greatly.

Glenn, great sculpture. Looks like fun! I've been to Carmel, and I know there's a lot of fun stuff there. Nothing wrong with fun. I won't address the ideological aspects of your post here, fighting "The Man" and such, but will say that I strongly hope there's better answers to homelessness than "go build something out of dirt and straw". It doesn't hurt to know how to do it, knowledge is power, but as far as an answer... that's not progress, that's regress.

Poppy, I'm right with ya on the value of using renewable resources and weaning ourselves from dependence on foreign oil, but to be perfectly honest, I have to admit wincing a little when I read that as an argument for cob. Why does the solution have to be to do with less and less, instead of using our wealth and ingenuity to live better and cleaner with technology already available to us? Why throw away our ideals of progress and innovation...

Whoops, I guess I've slipped into an ideological assertion as well...
Hard to avoid sometimes.

pagancelt, you said it, but I thought it too. Just didn't mention that part. Too chicken.  ;D



NE OK

poppy

RainDog
Quotewincing a little when I read that as an argument for cob. Why does the solution have to be to do with less and less, instead of using our wealth and ingenuity to live better and cleaner with technology already available to us? Why throw away our ideals of progress and innovation...
I wasn't trying to advocate cob or any other building method; just supporting the general principles here.  I would never want to build a cob house for any reason.

I'm kind of a middle-of-the-roader when it comes to any of this stuff.  There is a happy medium somewhere between the energy hog McMansion and the cob hovel.

We need to live with less because we have gone way over the top in consumption.  For example,with all of the increase in standard of living and all the technology that the Japanese now have, they still use 1/2 the energy per capita as we do.

I am for using technology; it makes perfect sense to use a microwave oven, for example.  Going backwards in technology is certainly not the answer; but if cob building or any other less impact method helps move us in the right direction, then I am all for it.

Ernest T. Bass

I always love looking at your house pics, Glenn.. Somebody should do a documentary on that thing. It's so creative and unique, whimsical and yet functional and practical.

For the record, we live in a rocket stove-heated cob house as well...


Call it backwards progress if you want to... We built it dirt cheap with renewable resources right off our land, and when its useful life is over much of what can't be reused will rot into nice topsoil without polluting the neighbor's water supply.

Our family's homestead adventure blog; sharing the goodness and fun!


dug

Nice homestead Earnest T!

There are mud homes all over the Southwest that have stood elegantly for over 100 years. They weren't unconventional until people became brainwashed into believing a home had to be stick framed, brick, or whatever else happens to be de jour in your particular neighborhood.

Freeholdfarm

I don't think cob is regressing, either.  It's inexpensive, can be built with materials from your own land, something even an amateur could build -- and I like the hand-built look of it.  There's something much more pleasing to the soul about wood and clay and stone in comparison with steel, glass and plastic (I don't like 'modern' for either interiors or exteriors).  I'm not an old hippie, either.  Just one of those people with more time than money who likes the look of cob.  I wouldn't go pay someone to teach me how to do it, though.  I did buy Ianto's book on cob-building (and the rocket-stove book), but that should be plenty of information to go ahead and build something with.

And if I was homeless, I'd much rather build a tiny cob cottage than live under a blue tarp.

Kathleen

waggin

Last year, I read Ianto Evans' "The Hand Sculpted House" and enjoyed it immensely.  Seeing some of the stuff done in the book, Ernest T. Bass' house, and Glenn's work makes me consider incorporating some cob construction into a project someday.  Maybe it won't be the house itself, but an outdoor wall, fireplace, oven, or who knows.  If I'm lucky enough to live somewhere without fanatical building departments or somewhere simply out of sight and mind, then maybe more.  I really get a kick out of seeing construction with virtually no constraints but the builder's (artist's) imagination.

Now I'm going to hit the search button for more on Ernest T. Bass' house.  If there isn't a build thread or pictures, then please post some & tell us about the build!
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy. (Red Green)

Ernest T. Bass

We did a bit of blogging when we built the house.. http://home-n-stead.com/about/blog_files/category-3.html
Yes, there are things we'd do different a second time around, but the building method itself is very promising and any faults were due to our lack of experience.

Quote from: dug on January 11, 2010, 09:36:42 PM
There are mud homes all over the Southwest that have stood elegantly for over 100 years.

I'm hoping one will stand in the Northeast as well! ;D

Quote from: waggin on January 12, 2010, 03:10:05 AM
Last year, I read Ianto Evans' "The Hand Sculpted House" and enjoyed it immensely. 

That was one of our favorites as well. I agree with Freeholdfarm; I wouldn't pay someone to teach me how build with the stuff, but you do need a few good books (the internet is a vast resource as well), and a healthy amount of time on your hands to experiment with different mixtures and stuff..

Our family's homestead adventure blog; sharing the goodness and fun!

RainDog

 Ernest T. Bass, very impressive and beautiful home you have there. A true labor of love, it's obvious. My hat's off to you.

Very much a hybrid, especially compared to those cobville homes. I realized after submitting my initial post the fault in my questions about the viability of cob as an alternative to conventional building methods, and that was that the cobville structures simply weren't comparable, in any real way, to more mainstream homes. Apples and oranges.

But yours... a nearly perfect example for the comparison. I'd like to brush all issues such as maintenance, longevity, etc. aside for just a moment and ask about cost alone. You state that it was built dirt cheap, but is that taking into consideration the value of the time and effort taken in it's construction? I've seen it repeatedly said that cob is a labor intensive endeavor, and since most of us place some value on our time, and consider our labor to be a commodity, it begs the question as to whether it is ultimately so inexpensive as the material costs alone might indicate.

In other words, is it less expensive to build, for instance, some given area of wall than using the time you expend instead earning the  money and buying, then assembling, lumber, sheathing, siding, insulation, and drywall? Man hours need to be factored in when considering costs.

As far as cob houses for the homeless... for multiple reasons that's not just low on some list of preferences, it's simply not an option at all, and it's not because they're brainwashed or ignorant of the method, it's a matter of practicality.

Again, great place you've got there, Ernest. I'll be checking your website out after posting this.


NE OK


Ernest T. Bass

Thanks for the compliments!

Quote from: RainDog on January 12, 2010, 11:36:23 AM
You state that it was built dirt cheap, but is that taking into consideration the value of the time and effort taken in it's construction?

That's a good question.. We are a large family, so there were many hands involved in the project. Yes, it's quite time-consuming; a building method that is more appropriate for large groups of laborers, as many natural construction processes are. It encourages community interaction from all age groups and levels of ability, so it can be a very bonding effort. It takes more 'human energy' to build a home like this, but if you compare it to the 'embodied energy' consumed by a conventional house, the cob comes in way ahead. The true 'cost' of a conventional house is hidden. The parts go together quickly on your building site, but think of all the fuel consumed in the process of harvesting the material (often in very unsustainable ways), processing it and trucking it to your location. It's very convenient to be able to dump a truckload of concrete into a form and start building on it in a couple days. It saves your arms a great deal of earthbag-tamping strain, but the earth and your checkbook pay dearly for that convenience. ;)

It's basically an ethical question more than a monetary one... It helps if you have more time than money.   ::)

Our family's homestead adventure blog; sharing the goodness and fun!

glenn kangiser

" As far as cob houses for the homeless... for multiple reasons that's not just low on some list of preferences, it's simply not an option at all, and it's not because they're brainwashed or ignorant of the method, it's a matter of practicality."

Thousands of homeless in tent cities are not practical either, but you are right - there is no solution here that I know of.

I have to agree that you are right for the USA,  Raindog, but partly because we look down on earthbuilding, because of what we call improvements, codes and the taxation system that regulates our every move and records every improvement to tax it....natural resources are near free so do not create a good tax base,  but likely in another country in fact around 2/3 of the world, they would not only be practical, they would be living in them and not be homeless.  Land ownership creates other problems.

I am reading a book -- off and on by Hassan Fathy "Architecture for the poor", and it starts out with his being appalled that his fathers farm workers were living in mud brick houses that were run down and nothing more than hovels.  He took it upon himself to learn the ancient ways of building with mud and straw but also to beautify the homes of the workers by educating them in better building practices.  It did not take a ton of money, but proper education and a desire to learn about the natural resources.  

He did also build fancy houses - still with mud and straw for the well to do but at a higher cost.  

Fathy eventually was commissioned by the government to build an entire affordable city of mud and straw to get the grave robbers away from Egypt's national treasures which they were plundering and selling in order to survive.

Note that most earthbuilding is of similar proportions and differing or similar remedies for different soils, so I refer to this along with the cob topic.

Ideal building soil is from the mineral clay a foot or two below the surface in most cases - not the top organic clay.  Ideal mixture is about 30% clay and 70% sand and aggregates including that in the clay.  Less available sand and aggregate is compensated by adding more straw.  Cob is built in place with a lesser amount of shrinkage than adobe which is generally made into bricks with straw added to hold them together.  There are still many successful variations.  Rammed earth is another variation.

As far as communes go -in general, the lazy ones usually sit on their butts and let the industrious ones do the work until they refuse to care for them.

"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

speedfunk

#16
I saw the video linked on permies Paul thanks.  

Cob is defenitly a great option for people with more time then money.  It's all about options.  I also think it looks freakin' awesome!  Something that is made by hand has so much personality ... you can't compare to stick frame which is more focused on getting it done quickly, in stages that can been farmed out to different people.  It also has the advantage of being "uneven" without getting upset and having to undo things.  I like this aspect!

If NY state was more open minded about alternatives... cob would be one that I would favor .  Much more so then even straw.  Being though that I (we) are trying to make a completely passive solar house I really didn't feel like battling with any code office.  I didn't want to added costs  and time associated with any thing un-conventional I just wanted to build.  I am also more familiar with concrete and wood, and have friends that are as well.  I think a Cob oven would be a good place to learn, kind of like the one on BK's and glenn and sassys thread.   8)

Very cool stuff... not regression at all!!  Freedom from wage slavery.

Freeholdfarm

Speedfunk, you mentioned what I think is the biggest reason that building methods like cob are so slow to catch on with the general public -- people are familiar with 'normal' construction methods and materials, and there's a big mental effort required to change to an unfamiliar material and methods, even though it's not an inferior material and may even be superior in many ways.  It's not so hard for me to imagine living in a cob house because I've always, from when I was little, been interested in old types of housing (especially the housing of the indigenous peoples of this continent).  Growing up one of our chief entertainments was building 'forts' out of whatever we could find.  Building with cob is just another step in that progression.  I do know how to build using standard construction, but I LIKE cob!

Kathleen

glenn kangiser

I was watching the Haiti earthquake info and came across this emergency earth bag information.  Thought I would post a link here.

http://www.earthbagbuilding.com/emergency/emergency.htm
"Always work from the general to the specific." J. Raabe

Glenn's Underground Cabin  http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=151.0

Please put your area in your sig line so we can assist with location specific answers.

RainDog

#19
Quote from: glenn kangiser on January 12, 2010, 10:50:39 PM

in another country in fact around 2/3 of the world, they would not only be practical, they would be living in them and not be homeless.  Land ownership creates other problems.


Absolutely. Transport me suddenly, with no resources, to a place where there's no access to any other building materials I could scrounge, and allow me a place to build with no great probability of being run off at any moment, close enough to services, food, potential employment, medical, etc, and I'd be right on board with earthen shelter. It would be self-destructive not to be.

On the other end of the spectrum, give me a place in California, preferably somewhere in the Bay area (I'm asking for a lot, huh?), an income that would enable me to not have to scramble to meet more immediate needs, and a lot of free time, as well as the inclination to do such things, and I'd be right on board too! Might even be able to sell the product to some wealthy San Francisco software giant who wants a place to show off to his friends.

You know where I'm comin' from.  ;)

Aside from those two situations, it boils down to a matter of aesthetic tastes, and mine just don't run in that direction. There's no accounting for personal tastes, yours or mine. I'd personally save the effort for something else.

Glenn, you made me google "tent cities", and when I do that I get scared and depressed simultaneously. Shocks me how the search results show such growth in the problem from the last time I looked, not very long ago. A lot of us, if not most of us, are only a couple of really bad days away from being in that situation.

Anyway... more coffee or I'll surely die. Interesting thread, in all its implications, I must say.

NE OK


poppy

Like Glenn, I have been watching some of the Haiti earthquake coverage; and on the subject of cob construction, how is earthquake resistance handled?

RainDog was talking about building in CA.  How do you earthquake protect cob?

MountainDon

Good point, poppy. I have no idea on that myself. But that reminds me that earthquakes in developing countries always seem to have much higher death tolls than quakes in the USA. We are always shown pictures of piles of rubble, rubble that used to be homes before the quake(s) struck.
Just because something has been done and has not failed, doesn't mean it is good design.

Squirl

I was thinking the same thing, but from Pakistan earthquakes two years ago.  I didn't want to rain on anyone's parade. Many of the reports said the death toll was higher because most of the houses were cob and fell apart from the quake.  This seems like a good form of construction for non natural disaster areas.

Freeholdfarm

Actually, earth homes in the Middle East aren't cob.  They are usually built with mud bricks, often with insufficient straw (straw acts as reinforcement for the cob).  There is a cob building in New Zealand that is over a hundred years old and has withstood two severe earthquakes with less damage than conventional homes in the same area.  Adobe homes in California have also withstood earthquakes.  I wouldn't be afraid to live in a small cob home here with the cob walls supporting the roof (and we can get bad earthquakes here), but a larger home should probably have a post and beam frame with cob in-fill.

Kathleen

RainDog

#24
 
Wasn't it a cob house that the second little piggy in the fairytale lived in before the wolf came?  ;D

I don't see how cob structures are gonna have any real earthquake resistance without a top bond beam to hold the building rigid, and plenty of vertical and horizontal reinforcing rebar. In which case it's not the cob itself that resists disintegration, but the wooden, metal, and/or concrete framing. How is a shake table stress test going to be performed on a substance that is inherently different in composition from building site to building site, and probably even from batch to batch within a single structure, in any case?

I've seen references to that house in New Zealand made whenever cob's earthquake resistance is questioned. You have to travel to the other side of the planet to find a cob structure that survived earthquakes, and that's supposed to be reassuring? Begs the question: How many didn't?


Earthen buildings, Earthquake of May 31, 1970, Huaraz, Peru.
NE OK