Give Bush a grade

[StinkerBell]

I am not misled. I know my logical and rational mind scares you.

[glenn kangiser]

No it wasn't the mind, it was the curlers.

[MountainDon]

Don, with all of the heat that could melt steel, how do you explain this?

He/She is outside the building, away from the fire?
That must have been a terrifying time for him/her.

Buying the official ridiculous explanation is only for those who don't want to see or dig into the scientific facts and at least coming up with questions if not answers.     

That is your opinion, perhaps a theory, nothing more. Your are entitled to your opinion. However, don't try to twist an opinion or theory into incontrovertible truth. That would not be scientific.


In closing...

Previous experiences have shown me there's absolutely no point in trying to debate the issues surrounding 9/11 with anyone who believes the attacks were an inside job. It's akin to attempting to convince an avowed atheist that God exits, or vice versa. That's why, until now, I've never bothered to challenge the conspiracy beliefs. I'm not getting drawn into a fruitless attempt at logical discussion, so that's that

[MountainDon]

John, I've noticed that different polls or studies by different people have placed different presidents in quite an assortment of placings. I had not run across that one. Using that criteria I can see how Lincoln could be poorly rated. Lots of ways to look at anything.

No one can say that American history is a dull subject. 

[glenn kangiser]

White is black - black is white.

She was identified although I didn't remember who she was .

No longer terrified - she is dead - that was the opening on the side of the building.  That is plain to see if you only would.

[StinkerBell]

No it wasn't the mind, it was the curlers.

You know that picture makes me look HOT!

[ScottA]

For the curious among us.




This building fell down due to fire so we are told.











This one did not fall down.

Both are steel framed structures.

[glenn kangiser]

Securacom, Wirt Walker CEO(Bush Cousin) and Marvin Bush (Dubya's brother) BOD coincidently were  the security company in charge of the WTC, Dulles and United Airlines.  They were newly hired by Silverstein as the WTC security co.  They were not before that time.  .  Good coincidence, eh?  The buildings had been closed off and on for computer work etc. previous to 9/11.  First terrorism insurance was taken out by Silverstein a few months before the PNAC plan was enacted - I mean 9/11/2001

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f0kPQiubqN4

[glenn kangiser]

Old stuff here but worth repeating for those who still think terrorists destroyed the WTC and not vested interests from here helping it along with assistance from US and Mossad trained insiders.

The WTC 7 we are talking about was reported to have fallen 20 minutes before it happened then the mess up was covered over by BBC.  Since there were no major fires in it and since Silverstein screwed up and later admitted "pulling it" on TV it is obvious it was controlled demolition.  As you can see in Scott's presentation above, it takes a big fire to destroy a steel building.  They don't just fall. 

Since this one was admittedly demolished, then there is little question that the planes and fire in the other two were not the cause of their destruction.  They were built to withstand a plane of similar size hitting them - they did not fail because of the planes, and the first day their designer said no way -- after getting leaned on he changed his story.

The BBC's 'WTC 7 Collapsed
At 4:54 p.m.' Videos

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/bbc_wtc7_videos.html

[NM_Shooter]

For crying out loud... use some of the logic that you claim to possess.

Watch any of the collapse videos.  Note that they collapse FROM THE TOP DOWN.

Let's say you wanted to completely demolish a building, and you didn't want anyone to know what was going on. 

First of all, you would have to have the entire army of maintenance workers that sustain that building on your side.  No way could you rig that amount of explosives without getting caught.  So all those workers would have to be part of the "inside job".  Oh... and by the way.. they would have to be willing to all die for your cause.

Second, you would want to rig the explosives so that you used the least amount of material.  Traditionally, this would be charges AT THE BOTTOM of the structure, right?  But we know that didn't happen.  The building collapsed from the top down. 

So....  the person who placed the charges, must have done so to trigger the collapse from the top or middle of the structure. 

And of course, you want this to look like a plane caused all of this right? 

So that plane has to fly exactly into the right section of the structure.  Oh... and your pilot of choice is someone who has never actually flown a jet before.  You are willing to risk that he chickens out, or misses the structure, or gets shot down, or a passenger thwarts the attempt.  Now you have one tower standing, which would be completely laden with explosives.  You'd be willing to take that chance.?

Let's say that your pilot flies into the building, where you had all your thermite / C4 whatever rigged up.  You've never collapsed a building of this size before, so there really is no model for experience.  The plane whacks into the side, and knocks out debris onto the street.  Absolutely none of your explosives are displaced to be found.  How lucky is that!

And your pilot hits in exactly the right spot where your explosives started.  Not below, because that would be suspicious if the building exploded UPWARD.  We know that was not an experienced pilot.  A perfect shot.  How lucky was that!

No explosive devices were found by any of the thousands of rescue / recovery workers who helped initially, nor were any found by any of the thousands of cleanup crew.  You either have exceptional recruiting skills for your inside job or you are very, very lucky. 

I was not told that the building fell down due to fire.  The bottom was not on fire. I was told that a section of the building was weakened by the force of the plane striking, and further weakened by the heat from the burning fuel.  This caused a small part of the building to collapse, and the rest was taken down by the millions of tons of weight from the section above crushing the building below.

The shear amount of data / common sense that plays against the conspiracy theory is overwhelming.

If you have the time, read this... note especially what it says about the use and amount of thermite:

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

-f-

[glenn kangiser]

Thanks for the additional links and commentary, Frank.  I did read the entire first link you posted and some additional links from that page and I have to agree with you that the evidence provided for thermite or thermate is not conclusive, but neither are the other explanations for anything having to do with this. 

"Thermite in general makes an ugly hole with molten metal drips/blobs. It doesn't make clean cuts. It's a powder that undergoes a violent chemical reaction as seen in the video below."

As a welder I can tell you that their example of a clean cut is one of the worst uses of an oxyacetylene torch I have ever seen.  I can also agree that I have seen junkers using a torch that would go ahead and make a nasty cut like that with a dirty torch.

As for the top falling first, there were seismic occurrences recorded at the time both buildings fell consistent with the base of the core being blown out then that  immediately pulling the top down then the collapse proceeded.  No -- I don't have all of the answers but everyone has lots of questions.

The pilots were not chosen by me.  They are from the official government conspiracy story.  They were incapable of flying the planes as depicted by the government.  They were identified by the government but there were no Arab names on any of the passenger lists.  Remote control of the planes was already a capability at the time so it would not have been necessary for these guys to fly the planes.  Remote control was immediately used in Afghanistan in the hunt for Osama with the pilots here in the US.  The planes used already were remote capable.  No proof there either, but as much as the official story has.

I also have to admit that the 9/11 truth movement has been infiltrated by those who want to take away credibility from it so that not all that is seen there is credible either.  It goes both ways.

[MountainDon]

FYI, there is another topic on 9/11. It may be found at
http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=2014.0. 
It was started a few years back. It would be awkward to shift the 9/11 content of this thread over there at this point. I'm cross-linking the topics though to provide readers with more opinions.



There is a very informative article available in PDF form (57KB) at Implosion World.  The download link to their article on the WTC is at the top of that page.

The document is protected, otherwise I would have copied and pasted portions of it here. It is well worth reading. Unlike websites dedicated to proving one theory or another about 9/11, the company behind this website has been involved in demolitions since 1970. See the 'about' link in the left hand sidebar for more information about the company and website.

From the website; "... implosionworld.com has never lost sight of the fact that reporting accurate information is essential to its purpose and remains the most important element of its existence. If one characteristic of explosive demolition has proven consistent over the years, it is that there never seems to be a shortage of "hype" around these projects, and the implosionworld.com team's goal has remained simple: To report timely, useful and factual information in a way that does justice to the blasting specialists worldwide who work diligently to keep structural blasting safe, while continuously experimenting with new ways to impress us all."

The site also has other pages of information and photos regarding explosive demolition of buildings in general. They even have a series of tapes of demolitions available for purchase.

[ScottA]

What I find very odd about building 7 is the fact the they ordered the fire department to evacuate and 20 minutes later it fell down. It's like someone knew it was going to happen. Add to that the fact that atleast 2 news services reported that it had already collapsed about the same time the fire department was pulled out. Very odd.

[NM_Shooter]

Read paragraph titled "collapse" here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center

[wildbil]

I was going to take a side in this argument, but then I rethought my statement, and came to a conclusion:

No one will win this argument. It will remain a mystery like JFK, Roswell, the extinction of dinosaurs, and evolution. Some are eager to question everything to find something that will sustain their reality; Others will cling to any explanation they are given in an attempt to blind themselves to a harsh and indiscriminate world. Whichever kind of person you are makes no difference in the larger scheme of life. Protect your family, try to be happy.

Bushes grade: D

Why: I believe he mishandled the country, the wars, and was never open enough with the public. Through every event I always wondered: "When is the President going to start saying something?" He always did, but always a little too late. He may be a good person and had good intentions, but our country is worse than when he left.

You can't blame him for going to war with Iraq. I am just as guilty of cheering him on when our troops rolled acrossed their border. Only after it was in a few years did I realize it may have been a blunder. I don't think I'm the only one who felt that excitment and patriotism at first but slowly realized what happened later. History will not judge Bush, It will judge all of us as The American Civilization. Call it growing up, but I went from a "Kick their A$$" attitude to thinking about the suffering we may be causing to other nations and cultures.

[MountainDon]

Building 7 collapse is not mentioned in the 9/11 Commission Report

The collapse of WTC7 was not included in the report as that was not included in the directions given to the commission. The commission was set up on November 27, 2002 "to prepare a full and complete account of the circumstances surrounding the September 11, 2001 attacks", including preparedness for and the immediate response to the attacks.

The commission was also mandated to provide recommendations designed to guard against future attacks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_Commission

The WTC7 was not directly attacked, just as the buildings next to WTC7 were not involved in the intial attacks. Seems logical to me.

[MountainDon]

I believe Dylan Avery's video Loose Change is probably held in high esteem with most 9/11 Conspiracy Buffs.  There is a counter version of Avery's work called Screw Loose Change.

Screw Loose Change takes the viewer through the Second Edition version of Avery's masterpiece, with the bonus of critiques. There are web url references included. Unfortunately the authors used tinyurls for the referenced web sites and some of them don't work anymore. Fortunately the ones that work are gems of information, stuff that doesn't readily come up on a Google. (FYI, the problem with tinyurls is that id the referenced page is moved on the target website, the path chnaged in any way, the link goes dead.)

I have not followed all the tinyurl links but have followed a number.

One that sticks out is where a airplane rental flight instructor, Marcel Bernard, is interviewed about the abilities of Hani Hanjour, one of the hijackers. Quoted from Avery's version... "The standard evaluation consists of one-to-one-and-a-half-hour flights east over the Chesapeake Bay area. Hanjour paid $400 cash and provided a valid pilot's license from Arizona. He failed because he showed problems landing the airplane and the flight instructor had to help him."

However, the makers of Screw Loose Change found the rest of the interview. After the above statement that Avery did show, Marcel Bernard went on to say, "But Hanjour's problems were nothing unusual. "There's no doubt in my mind that once (Flight 77) got going, he could have pointed that plane at a building and hit it."

Very convenient editing for the perspective pushed as truth by Dylan Avery, and swallowed hook, line and sinker by those who prefer to believe in a conspiracy.

And there is more misrepresentation and pure deceitfulness on Avery's part. But you'll have to view the video. Or alternatively you can go to Screw Loose Changes sister website and read the blow by blow disection of Avery's duplicity.

[MountainDon]

Another resource that should be read is Frequently Stupid Theories

[ScottA]

No one will win this argument. It will remain a mystery like JFK, Roswell, the extinction of dinosaurs, and evolution. Some are eager to question everything to find something that will sustain their reality; Others will cling to any explanation they are given in an attempt to blind themselves to a harsh and indiscriminate world. Whichever kind of person you are makes no difference in the larger scheme of life. Protect your family, try to be happy.

I can live with that.

Which reminds me. Don kinda looks like the roswell alien drawings I've seen. And he does live in New Mexico. Very odd.

[MountainDon]

And FWIW, I don't believe there's anything of a conspiracy regarding the Roswell Incident; that is I do not believe an alien craft crash landed that day.    I have been to the Roswell Alien Museum, or whatever it's real name is, and thought it was humorous and very low budget.     I may be odd though.      I need to get some new tin foil.

[glenn kangiser]

I read the Wikipedia article bearing in mind that they are editable and writable by anyone.  The Firefighters in the building had different stories from the NIST and FEMA.  Their experiences were not allowed in the 9/11 report.

I still have to refer to the obviously standing lady in the opening of the WTC - she did not melt in the supposedly melted steel, and also to the points brought about the NIST study and other discrepancies by David Ray Griffin.

http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

9/11/2001 radio broadcast: "...I was just standing there, ya know... we were watching the building [WTC 7] actually 'cuz it was on fire... the bottom floors of the building were on fire and... we heard this sound that sounded like a clap of thunder... turned around - we were shocked to see that the building was... well it looked like there was a shockwave ripping through the building and the windows all busted out... it was horrifying... about a second later the bottom floor caved out and the building followed after that."

A collection of events surrounding WTC7

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/cutter.html

"Consider the facts:

   * The fires in WTC 7 were not evenly distributed, so a perfect collapse was impossible.
   * Explosions occurred in WTC 7 before it sustained any damage from the twin towers' collapses.
   * Silverstein said to the fire department commander "the smartest thing to do is pull it."
   * Firefighters withdrawing from the area stated the building was going to "blow up".
   * The building subsequently collapsed perfectly into its footprint.
   * Molten steel and partially evaporated steel members were found in the debris."

[glenn kangiser]

I don't so much believe in the aliens at Roswell as that it is cover for secret goings on.

I do believe in Don though.

[sparks]

To answer the topic question, a low side D.

Our Country is a mess.

http://www.hadenough.us/4stepstofascism.html


The last act of a failing government, is to loot the nation.





sparks

[NM_Shooter]

The last act of a failing government, is to loot the nation.

That's pretty much where we are now.   

-f-