Monitor heaters--kerosine, diesel, etc.

[glenn-k]

I was by the house in the valley tonight- checked the Monitor - a 441 - it is still working great and "0" spent on maintenance, my wife said it has been almost 9 years - heating every winter for about 4 months.  No obscene fan noises or anything that worries me.

[Dustin]

I will probably end up buying one or two LP Rinnai units (very similar to the Monitors).
They sound like real efficient boxes.

[Mommymem]

I called about the hydro-sil heaters. They sound pretty interesting and not terribly expensive with a life time guarantee. He's sending us a brochure that we should get by Saturday, if there's anything good in it you'll find more posted. It's energy star efficient and inexpensive! This might be our way to go. We'll see...

[CREATIVE1]

The Monitor heater looks interesting.  Any drawbacks off grid?  A total newbie about off-grid issues, but will have to learn FAST as it will be our new lifestyle.

[Dustin]

They do use electricity(run fans and such). How much, you'll have to check the web site.

[Dustin]

Daddymem:
did you ever figure out what the final verdict is on your heating situation?

Here's my take:
radiant in the basement with pex in the slab.
woodstove in the living room
monitor-type (rinnai?) propane units in the kitchen and possibly the office
either electric heater mats under the master and kids bath tile floor or gypcrete and more pex connected to the radiant
we may need to install some hole-in-the-floor registers, but I don't want to for privacy's sake

[Daddymem]

Nope...just another drama.

Banks are giving us grief.  They say it has to be central heating (forced hot air, forced hot water, radiant, or electric baseboard, heatpump, etc.) and that monitors, wood stoves, and pellet stoves are space heaters.  We found another way...there is this guy who will finance based on the final value of what you build.  So far seems legit, really nice guy, admits he doesn't make a great living doing this but he enjoys it.  We'll see.  (Small world story...this guy's son lives on the same small pond as my Grandmother in Freedom)  The other problem is the Town may have a say in what we use to heat using the same argument about central heating.  We may know today, we may have to wait until next week (the plumbing inspector is on vacation).

What we want:
Pex in the slab for possible future use
Woodstove or pellet stove, center of the house, we'll see if we need floor registers
Rinnai propane heater

What we know:
Went to get an estimate for hot water heat.  Plumber says "you have to go radiant" wife says "no", plumber insists...we get an estimate with radiant heat on the first floor, baseboard on the second.  $25,000!!! "New plumber" says I.

Forced hot air-not an option since we have no walls to hide ducts in.  Haven't researched any more than that.

Geothermal-bad idea around here...just not enough roi....except the cost was actually lower than bonehead plumber #1 at $20000.  Besides, where do you hide those ducts?

Hydrosil-bad.  Too expensive and no benefit over normal electric (boogie woogie woogie) heat.

Toyo/Monitor, etc. Kero/Fuel Oil-great idea, not easy to find someone to supply, service, or even sell it.  We can go to that Al guy and we are close enough to pick up. Still need someone to install it since ours would be a pump system.  Would have an oil tank in our basement then.  Same comment over and over, fuel oil changes composition when it sits and therefor requires more maintenance.  Toyo guy wouldn't even sell us one unless he found someone to agree to service it.

Monitor/Rinnai, etc. Propane-great idea.  Bury the tank in the yard and have a good source for gas stove top, gas dryer, and gas hot water heater.

Wood stove/pellet stove- great idea if wood is cheap and available.  If you travel, you need to make arrangements or have a backup heat source.  Get a new epa model, they are more efficient. Skip the outdoor model, too polluting.

Coal stove-making a comeback.  If coal is available to you, could be an interesting option.

Electric baseboard-expensive to run.  This may actually be our fall back to get us into our house.  The units are cheap.  We can get them installed by our electrician friend, get our occupancy permit then take them out, sell them and use that money to buy the monitor.  

I'll let you know when we know what we are doing.  

Better news?  Well is in, got good clean water.  A little low on PH (corrosive potential), and a little high on maganese (color, odor possible) but deemed potable by the epa standards.
Specifics? 4" PVC, 46-feet deep.

[glenn kangiser]

40' well? that's not a well -around here it's a post hole.  Mines 675' deep -1 gpm.  Good job.

We commonly leave our #2 diesel in the tank until the next heating season - say 8 months - most of the way down then add new - change the filter once every year or two - no problem - your oil will gel if not kept warm I think- too freakin' cold there- brrrr - bummer.

[Daddymem]

Believe it or not...he went too deep.  I warned him, but again who listens.  My parents well: there is a 4x4x4 hole in their basement floor with an open bottom, say 12 feet to bottom of pit.  Dad drives a well point by hand 15-20 feet.  27-32 feet is it and nice clean water.  This guy missed that nice lens.  Bedrock is 80 feet down where I am.  There are aquifers around here that could supply Boston should the Quabbin become a problem.

[Dustin]

Daddymem, have you talked to Radiantec (www.radiantec.com) yet?
Here's my thought: you're going to put PEX in the basement anyway, right? Couldn't you just connect it to your hot water heater in an inexpensive open system and do it yourself?
Radiantec is over in your neck of the woods, too.
I think you can heat your whole little house with those Rinnai's but you have to satisfy the bank....
Even if you don't want to heat your basement (you may also have doubts or issues about an open system too, but you don't have to use it- and you can easily use the setup to adapt to a "closed" solar heating setup  later on) , turn off the valves to the PEX system and just use the Rinnais. You're only paying extra for the expansion tank, a very small manifold (one zone), and the plumbing parts to hook it up to the hot water tank you're already going to buy. Then you can satisfy the bank, and install those "space heaters" to add a little extra heat.
Get a quote and see what it costs. "Example" quotes for a 2000 sq ft house with multiple zones were $5-7 with a $3000 hot water tank (which you do not need to buy). Obviously your case would be much less, and -$3000 since you're not buying a fancy Polaris water heater. John Hyslop is doing radiant in his house with a regular water heater.
I think he said he's doing an open system and he did it all himself, or maybe with a little help for the hookup.
I don't think you want to involve the pricy plumber. He costs too much. Maybe just use a plumber friend for the valve hookup if you're not confident with sweating a pipe. You can definitely do the PEX all by yourself, though.

[Daddymem]

Mommymem is meeting with Rinnai guy today, cross our fingers that he can help us. The radiant would not satisfy the Town unless it was put into every room.  Radiant works in John's house because he is on a slab and will only do the bottom floor.  I live in the land of permits and inspections and we have a majorly powerful mafia plumber's union; you have to go with the flow or get swept up by an ambitious plumbing inspector (also does the heat).  Our hopes is 1 Rinnai installed for under $5000 (tank, vent, unit, propane lines, etc.)  I would like to rig a system with our woodstove to circulate hot water to the basement slab.  We are picking and poking at what work we will do, we are limited in time and building the house itself is a large task by itself, nevermind electric, plumbing, heating, etc.

[Dustin]

Believe me, I know what you mean.

I think it's ridiculous that they want to make you put radiant on every floor in every room!
John's is on a slab, but he doesn't have radiant upstairs... If you had to, you could put radiant in the basement and in the first floor and do staple up, but I wouldn't if I could avoid it.
Well, good luck on getting them to figure it out then. Maybe they would count floor registers for upstairs rooms? (there goes privacy then) What do people with other similar types of houses that won't accomodate ducts do (post and beam, etc)?
I hope I don't have a similar situation.

[keyholefarmhouse(Guest)]

Do you need AC in the summer.  I spent a year in Barnstable 25 years ago and don't recall that need.

Around here we are hot and cold and need both.  Most peole settle for forced air.  Too much $$$ for multiple systems.

Sounds way to norm I know.  But there are some creative ways to box out ducts.

keyhole

[Mommymem]

I saw the plumbing inspector yesterday and asked him about the Rinnai heater. He LOVES them! So we are set to go with the propane heater and woodstove. Inspector said these systems are very nice and pretty efficient and that they are becoming more popular now. As for A/C we have a couple window units already that are only a couple years old. I would assume we'll just use those since we only really need A/C for like 10 days out of the year.

[Dustin]

So it's only a matter of getting the bank to approve them as "whole house heating" instead of "space heating"?

[Mommymem]

This new guy we're dealing with out of NH already approves of them. He's been great and we don't need a builder with a license and insurance to sign for us. This bank is for owner/builders, David @FD sent me to him. Now we're just waiting for all our sub contract quotes to come in and our rescheck then we can pull our permit.

[Dustin]

Hurrah for you guys! Glad you were able to get past the heating hurdle.
I will be doing the same exact thing for heating as well.
Are you buying the Rinnai heater(s) from a local guy or the internet?
What models?

[Mommymem]

We are getting it from a local gas company, Amerigas, and he's suggested getting the RHFE-1004A model. This one will do no problem heating the whole house. Maybe in the future we'll get a smaller one for in the basement when we finish that off. And as a bonus for using Amerigas, when we sign up for propane for 5 yrs they throw in a 40-50 gal hot water heater for free! Can't beat free!!

[Amanda_931]

Well insulated Energy Star water heater?

Otherwise they may make enough money off of you to be worth giving you the heater!

[glenn kangiser]

Update on the Monitor -- while they usually work good when new, I seems that the Monitor is not reliably repairable when it breaks since the Monitor people are more brokers than manufacturers.

We replaced ours with a Toyo, or Rinnai is also a good reliable reparable heater.

Talk to Al's Heating in Brunswick, ME, for the straight story.  www.alsheating.com

[Daddymem]

We love our Rinnai...thought it doesn't go on very often since we heat primarily with the wood.  We set the Rinnai on low and it will keep it acceptable in here overnight and if we are away.

[glenn kangiser]

Are you burning oil or Kerosene, Daddymem?

I can't think of a more efficient heater than this- except wood for cost of operation.

[Daddymem]

Propane, makes the most sense where we are.  We listened to AL too.

[mekkis]

Hey, I recently tenanted a house equipped with a Monitor MPI 441.   From the manual I've downloaded on Monitor's site it says only to use kero/#1/stove oil/etc, but some of you are saying you run #2 successfully?  IIRC offroad diesel ($1.80-ish/gal locally) is the same as #2, so you can see why this piqued my interest.


Also, sorry to bump such an old thread, but after thirty minutes Googling these units I only discovered Al's site and this thread. 

[glenn kangiser]

#2 red diesel works great but believe Al about the Monitor -- it is not repairable once it's done.  It worked great until it went out though.  The diesel was not the cause of it's problem. 

We now have a Toyo running red diesel - Al said it was OK.  We are low sulfur here too.

Toyo (Toyotomi) and Rinnai are great stoves.  Monitor is an assembler of misc. cheap parts from random place and don't stand behind their product well like the others do.  Al will no longer repair them.