14 x 24 Olympic Peninsula

[considerations]

Go?  Like this?


Now its off to Houston to see my son get married, back next week.

[ScottA]

Looks good. I never saw red treated lumber before. Maybe they're trying to make it look like redwood.

[considerations]

I put my glasses on and read the little label on the end of the PT wood.  It says "ground contact".  Which is fine with me, as it gets really wet out here in the winter. 

I have all the cross bracing in on the foundation posts now, going both the short and the long way, on the inside of the rectangle made by the piers.

Next are the diagonal braces that run from the posts to the part of the floor joists that hang out past the beams.  I'm running out of places to attach 2 x4's to the posts.   

But I'm really tickled with that floor deck...I can't find a place where it isn't level.  And my skeptical, and much more experienced neighbor was tres impressed at how square it came out.  You folks have been a great help to me.

[Redoverfarm]

considerations way to go. Thought you took a vacation as you hadn't posted for a while.  Just about ready for the deck now?  Keep us posted and the pics coming.

[glenn kangiser]

I must have somehow missed this earlier.  That looks great.

[Sassy]

Very impressive!   

[John Raabe]

Nice job! A square and level deck is a certifiably auspicious start for a great project.

[PEG688]

 Nice job! Flat, true  and square all good things ! Now lets move onto Plumb , square and straight


I think thats what John was saying    He just used bigger words 

[John Raabe]

Yes, I thought "certifiably auspicious" would make me sound smarter than I really am...

Now, at my audaciously progressive age, I need all the help I can get.

[glenn kangiser]

Glad I have a dictionary on my computer - whew.

Look, PEG... that there is what book larniin' will do to ya.

[considerations]

I took some satisfaction in passing my neighbor's "inspection".  I don't think he thinks I can do this.  He has no idea.....good old boy, nice man. but a good old boy.

I'll be really happy when the roof is on. I got rained out today.  Worked under the tarp for awhile, then remembered I neede blocks between the joists...yagh!  Got half of them cut, 2 installed.  By then I was soaked, not cold, just really wet and muddy. Then I realized the skilsaw was wet....its electric...hmmmm.   That was it.

Put everything away, battened down and headed for the shower. 

I've read everything I could find on this site and on the web and I think I don't want mice in my floor insulation.  So here's the "floor sandwich" I'm planning on.

Under the joists: staple up 1/4" hardware cloth.

Under the insulation: staple plastic string to keep the insulation from sagging down to the hardware cloth.  The insulation is about 6" thick and the floor joists are 2 x 10's

Insulation: R22 Roxol (bats of rock wool)

Floor: 2x6 T&G

Am I missing anything? 

I'll be putting a moisture barrier on the ground as well, but I'll poke holes in it if I do that before I'm done crawling around down there.

[Redoverfarm]

considerations don't forget the vapor barrier.  If using faced insulation it would go against the T&G.  If unfaced you can used 6mil plastic on your joist beore T&G.  If you have access to fish net it can work well to hold the insulation in place. They make a cheap netting for this but I am not sure of the cost or availability. Just staple to the underside of the joist.  Depending on the weather you staple the rabbit wire on the underneath side, lay insulation in the cavity and cover with the sheeting.  But you don't want to let it get wet.  Oh I forgot you are in Washington State.

[considerations]

Oh I forgot you are in Washington State: Yep, and only 2 miles from the official start of the rain forest....but its not exactly a definitive border, so yes, I get my fair share of rain.  I have become the unofficial "Tarp Queen" out here.

If unfaced you can used 6mil plastic on your joist beore T&G: Roxol doesn't have any "facing material", it's just a big batt.

6mil plastic: To keep moisture from coming up through the floor? Does it have to be one solid sheet, or can I overlap smaller pieces?

They make a cheap netting for this: I have some bird netting I used to use to keep the birds out of the orchard, would that work?  The building materials people laughed behind their hands when I tried to explain what I wanted to do...I ended up planning to just use bailing twine, I have thousands of feet from the horses's hay bales, but the bird netting might be easier....hmmm

But you don't want to let it get wet:  The insulation?  So far so good, thanks to the tarps.

[PEG688]

Your post brings a few questions , you say your going to use 2x6 T&G decking on the ground floor ? Why ? Your joist are , it appears , 16" OC which is normal for 3/4 T&G Ply or OSB ( Edge gold) The sheet goods would be cheaper and better really for strenght of that floor platform. 

  You don't want to insulate that crawl space until your roof is on , it WILL get wet ,  no doubt in my military mind , at some point your tarp will blow off / tear / and that "new " insulation will be trash.

Yes it will be a PITA to crawl under and do it later but you have plenty of room under there so I highly recommend you wait on insulating.

I'd insulate ,then use your bailing twine to hold it up , under that I'd use Typar then the hardware cloth to keep the critters out.


I would NOT use any plastic vapor barrier up in / on / or under the sub flooring.

I WOULD use a 4 mil vapor barrier directly on the ground after every thing else is done under the place , so the last thing you lay down under there is the vapor barrier.

You should enclose that crawler with  PT plywood  skirting that has vents in it , two on each skirting wall.  Cross venting the crawl space.

  I'd save that T&G Lumber for the loft and use Edge gold 3/4 T&G subflooring / sheathing for the deck.


G/L PEG     

[considerations]

PEG: Your post brings a few questions , you say your going to use 2x6 T&G decking on the ground floor ? Why ?

*Because the T&G will be my living room floor.  I'll vinyl or pergo the kitchen and bathroom, but I like the old style softwood floors. 


Your joist are , it appears , 16" OC which is normal for 3/4 T&G Ply or OSB ( Edge gold) The sheet goods would be cheaper and better really for strenght of that floor platform. 

*The joists are 24"OC

  You don't want to insulate that crawl space until your roof is on , it WILL get wet ,  no doubt in my military mind , at some point your tarp will blow off / tear / and that "new " insulation will be trash.
Yes it will be a PITA to crawl under and do it later but you have plenty of room under there so I highly recommend you wait on insulating.

*I thank you, my thigh muscles thank you.  I'll wait.

I'd insulate ,then use your bailing twine to hold it up , under that I'd use Typar then the hardware cloth to keep the critters out.

*Oh lord you're going to think I'm dumb.  what is Typar?

I would NOT use any plastic vapor barrier up in / on / or under the sub flooring.

I WOULD use a 4 mil vapor barrier directly on the ground after every thing else is done under the place , so the last thing you lay down under there is the vapor barrier.

*Yes, that is the plan, except it is 6 mil...I'll keep it with the insulation until it is time to install.

You should enclose that crawler with  PT plywood  skirting that has vents in it , two on each skirting wall.  Cross venting the crawl space.

*Yes, skirting and venting is the plan. 

I'd save that T&G Lumber for the loft and use Edge gold 3/4 T&G subflooring / sheathing for the deck.

*Hmmm.  Is there anything really BAD about a 2" softwood floor?  I know about the marring potential, etc.  I thought it would be strong as well. 

[PEG688]

*Because the T&G will be my living room floor.  I'll vinyl or pergo the kitchen and bathroom, but I like the old style softwood floors. 

   Ah,  ya it will work for that , it may shrink more than your thinking so the gaps may be quite large if you don't cover it.

It's very squeaky floor system the T&G tends to squeak , so you should be aware of that.





 

*The joists are 24"OC

  Normally  when  2x6 T&G is used your joist  ,  which where really beams ,, are spaced 4' to 6' apart, it was called post and beam and there where no "joist".

  John has a detail for a beam ceiling in his plans , but you don't have his plans do you? It's hard to remember who has what , who's building what .It's not a problem posting here IF you don't have John's plans so no worries there .

  Maybe with the 2' OC you'll have less squeaking .

     





 

*I thank you, my thigh muscles thank you.  I'll wait.

  Oh they'll get to scream at you later along with your knees 




 

*Oh lord you're going to think I'm dumb.  what is Typar?

Building wrap , if your supplier sold you any other brand of house wrap , other than Typar or Tyvek I'd return it . Some where on this  site we had a long discussion about the many wraps , none  are any good , BUT the Typar or Tyvek . The rest are very bad , I think our bottom line is that felt is the best for walls and roofs . But for a vapor barrier under and attached to the joist bottoms for protection and some vapor barrier effect it will be a good thing it comes in 9' and 3' wide rolls the 3' would be the easiest to install   






*Yes, that is the plan, except it is 6 mil...I'll keep it with the insulation until it is time to install.



  That will work as well.



 

*Yes, skirting and venting is the plan. 

Good !





*Hmmm.  Is there anything really BAD about a 2" softwood floor?  I know about the marring potential, etc.  I thought it would be strong as well. 

There's nothing "bad" about it other than what I've mentioned , it "odd" to see it used today we like sheet goods for strenght reasons , but it will be fine , I think it will cost a bit more , BUT you've got your stock already so retuning it at this point is more than likely not possible. As I mentioned it may squeak and it will shrink and dent. So it has down sides.   

[Redoverfarm]

I was wondering about the T&G on the floor w/o sheeting but I was following what your intentions were.  If you wanted the T&G for the look then yes on the sheeting.  T&G will open and shut throughout the year and as Peg stated there should be a sheeting either 3/4" T&G, Advantex or Surfloor the later of the two will hold up to exposure of the elements if considerable time passes before it can be dried in.

 As far as the vapor barrier I had been told and follow the advice that it should be at the flooring level on the crawlspace area and not under the insulation toward the ground.  The insulation will hold the moisture if the barrier is toward the ground.  My house has the complete interior walls wrapped with plastic rather than faced insulation.  It provides a much better barrier than the faced which allows air to pentrate past the flaps in faced insulation.  Another reason I suggested it was that I hadn't read any post of sealing in your crawlspace with exterior walls which would prove the gound barrier useless.

I  would say that the bird netting would work great to hold the insulation in place since you will have no way to secure it into the cavity as conventional installation(stapled through the barrier flaps).  Then there is "tiger teeth" which is the wires that are inserted and grip from joist to joist while installing.

[PEG688]

The reason it's used in the loft is it looks good , you install it with the "V" groove side down so the ceiling looks good.

In your case the "V"groove should be down so when your insulating that crawler it will "look good" ,,,,,till you cover it with insulation. 

[PEG688]

 As far as the vapor barrier I had been told and follow the advice that it should be at the flooring level on the crawlspace area and not under the insulation toward the ground.  The insulation will hold the moisture if the barrier is toward the ground.  My house has the complete interior walls wrapped with plastic rather than faced insulation.  It provides a much better barrier than the faced which allows air to pentrate past the flaps in faced insulation.  Another reason I suggested it was that I hadn't read any post of sealing in your crawlspace with exterior walls which would prove the gound barrier useless.

I  would say that the bird netting would work great to hold the insulation in place since you will have no way to secure it into the cavity as conventional installation(stapled through the barrier flaps).  Then there is "tiger teeth" which is the wires that are inserted and grip from joist to joist while installing.

The whole vapor barrier thing is confusing yes.

IF the insulation has a paper barrier on it it should go to the "warm" side . I've seldom  used the plastic wrap wall thing  , we use a PVA primer that acts as the vapor barrier , most folks here in Western Wa.  do it that way. The plastic can and does go wrong .

For this  VENTED crawl  space and the no paper insulation the Typar will breath , help hold the insulation in place , keep the critters out , and some what protect the insulation.

The plastic thing really worries me as it will hold any moisture that gets in basically forever , and in fact that moisture and the plastic can become it's own distilling plant in the cavity.   

[Redoverfarm]

considerations Here is a site that might help. I think they even made a poylethlene faced insulation as well as foil & paper faced.


http://www.owenscorning.com/around/insulation/project/crawlunderfloor.asp

[Redoverfarm]

Peg I really never had a problem as mine was factory installed.  I had to remove some when I built an addition on and it was the same as the day it was installed. That was 12 years ago.  But you mentioned PVA primmer.  I use this also but unless to prime both sides it really doesn't protect the drywall from moisture through the insulated area.   I think another reason is cost.  The unfaced is considerably cheaper than the faced. As you said it is the grey area under the house.

I used a product made by "styrofoam" company which is a foambacked housewrap. It is used in this area. A little higher in price than Tyvek but it makes a good job. Blue in color.  It has the perforations the same as other wraps but is about twice the weight.

[considerations]

Thankyou PEG and Redoverfarm;

I want this little place to be stout.  I have so many diagonals under the floor that it is good exercise even for a contortionist to get from one end of the crawlspace to the other.

As far as the T&G, I plan on gluing it to the joists as well as nailing and from what I can see, the nails are supposed to be in the joists at least 2 inches to fasten the floor down well.  Maybe Tyvek below the joists will serve to somewhat mitigate the seasonal shrink/swell.  If I don't like the outcome, I can always put some other surface over the planks in the future.

PVA primer:  What do you put it on?

This is exactly why I put my ideas on this forum.  I spent hours researching this floor thing.  I was mostly suprised that:

1: there seems to be little discussion (on the web) about the protecting the crawlspace from entry by various critters that like to set up housekeeping in shelters intended for humans, and

2: the conflicting info about the "vapor barrier" i.e.; under the floor deck, or under the joists, or none at all.  

I appreciate all of your thoughts.  I noticed that at least one other poster on this forum put black sheet plastic directly under their floor decking. But, when considering spills leaking though the T&G and being stopped by solid plastic, I hesitated to choose that option.

I've seen Tyvek for sale here, and read the discussions on this forum about the different "vapor barriers" So, although I had decided to stick with felt for the walls and the roof, I never considered Tyvek under the joists. Thank you.

Living on farms, I've seen fascinating and lively episodes of human/animal interactions when competing for the same living space, ergo the 1/4" hardware cloth.

As for building houses, well, I'm in the beginning stage of OJT....

I have John's plans, and the T&G is going in the loft as well, but that's a future chapter.  

[considerations]

Redoverfarm - what are you doing up so late?  It must be 2AM there!

[Redoverfarm]

Just one of those nights.  With the 4th on Friday I didn't work. Spent time withthe family on Saturday. Son went to Rodeo in the afternoon.  That is two days that I hadn't worked to burn off any energy so I guess my body was in high gear from no exercise.  In essence I couldn't sleep.  I'm paying for it this morning.

[PEG688]

PVA primer:  What do you put it on?

The sheetrock (  S/R / GWB Gypsum Wall Board / wallboard / drywall )  walls and ceilings. More than you'll need to know about Gypsum Wall Board by the makers of  "SHEETROCK"

http://www.usg.com/navigate.do?resource=/USG_Marketing_Content/usg.com/web_files/products/prod_details/FIBEROCK_Brand_Abuse-Resistant_Fiber-Reinforced_Gypsum_Interior_Panels.htm

Maybe you won't have sheetrock ? Some folks use T&G Pine , other use other more "non-common" types of wall and ceiling finishs.