Paul Craig Roberts talks with Max Keiser about our financial condition

[rwanders]

Dug, i understand your point and it true that access to lots of $$ can make it easier for someone to exercise political influence. Union members are in a particularly tight spot. They actually end up paying at least part of their dues to support candidates or issues they may be utterly opposed to. The reality you point out is the reason it is incumbent on people who have issues or candidates they support to seek out other groups of like-minded folks and add their combined weight to the contest. It may include pooling a lot of small $$ together, volunteering for candidates, "lobbying" for your issues, speaking up at public meetings, etc.

My point is; You are not helpless, you, joined together with like-minded people can exercise a lot more influence than you may imagine. The Tea Party movements have exerted influence far beyond their ability to spend money. At the same time, the pooling of small contributions by tea partiers has now provided a  pretty good pile of $$ to counter a good part of the $$ spent by their opposition.  Effective political action is about marshaling voter support--money is obviously an important means to do that but, it is not the only way. political contributions tend to flow towards those who appear to be gaining voter support----success breeds success.

The best thing any candidate or issue supporter can have is for their opposition to feel defeated before the election even begins---makes their own fund raising easier and places a winner's mantle on them and everybody loves a winner----change that perception and today's political "sure thing" suddenly is a horse race. I repeat, you are NOT helpless. "Money" is often defeated at the polls.

People can either sit and bemoan their fate or join with kindred spirits and fight for what they want. Unfortunately letting yourself feel helpless and defeated only leads to feeling helpless and defeated.
Actively supporting, I repeat, actively supporting your causes or candidates may not guarantee you a victory but you will win some and while you will sometimes be defeated, you will not feel helpless.

Why do we look so hard to find reasons to justify feeling defeated? Maybe it is part of human nature to guarantee ourselves at least the small victory of saying; "See, I was right, the system is rigged. I can't ever win so why even try"?  I was right!

RW

[Native_NM]

Committee for Economic Development (you have heard of this group, right ?)

http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=9666.0

I don't have a problem eliminating the billions in tax credits to the oil companies if you don't have a problem eliminating the billions in tax credits and payments-in-kind to the small farmers....

[Native_NM]

The point I am trying to make in my posts is that of the inconsistencies in the entire process.  Contributions are "bribes" , unless its from the Union, in which case it is just fine.  Tax credits to corporations are bad, but refundable tax credits to somebody who didn't pay tax in the first place is fine.  R&D credits to the oil company is GOP greed, but R&D credits to farmers are fine.    That is just from the Democratic perspective.  I could easily fire off a list from the GOP's side. 

One can't take a moral position, and then alter it to suit his position, and maintain my respect for very long.  I guess that is why there are not too many politicians I respect.  I'm a limited government advocate.  I also understand there are roles in society that only government can fill; private enterprise is not the answer to every problem.  My thinking and actions are generally consistent with my ideology.

If they fired half the government workers I doubt most of us would notice them gone.  Gary Johnson literally cut half of the payroll in NM in his eight years, and by most accounts the 90's were the most productive period in NM history. 

[Windpower]

I guess we agree on that one, NM

the government should not be distorting markets either the ag market or the mining industries with subsidies or special tax breaks


My point was CED is a semi secret, very powerful organization has been pulling government strings for 60 years or so -- for the benefit of 'business'

citizens,  not so much

It is very instructive to watch the whole video link below but if you only have a few munutes start watching at 4 minutes 20 seconds

and listen to Rep Jim Cooper (TN) tell you "The way it works is this...."  

http://www.ced.org/about/about-ced

[dug]

rwanders-  I really don't think I feel helpless, well maybe to the practical extent of reality, but not helpless in my everyday affairs or livelihood- definitely not defeated. On the contrary I spend most days content and satisfied, breaking only now and then to vent a little such as now. My usual thoughts about the state of affairs are in reference to my own, my family and my friends, and I feel grateful and privileged to have lived in a time of such prosperity, good health, and though not particularly peaceful, at least myself and my family have been spared from the direct horrors of war.

As far as politics go I guess like a lot of folks my faith has steadily degraded over the years, reinforced by actions and result time and time again.

Its hard to get too fired up about a political candidate at this point in my life after so many disappointments over the years. There have been politicians who have tried to fulfill some of their campaign promises but they are becoming a very rare breed, nearly, if not extinct. Though I don't support him Obama is the latest and greatest example- a glorious campaign promising hope and change to a nation so desperate for it they were willing to bite on nearly anything, only to assume office and carry on with business as usual- and worse.

The tea party is probably a healthy thing for the US, anything to shake up the status quo a bit, but though I think some of the ideas they represent are good there are many core values they hold dear which I could never support.

Any political faction I would support as a sane and sensible alternative to what we have now would be labeled by the majority as a radical, anti- US, terrorist sympathizing threat to their way of life, in part due to what I believe is a mainstream propaganda blitz that reduces my choices to either red or blue, or more accurately red/blue. I have the right to choose one who is slightly less offending than the other.

Lobbying and getting involved with local government would likely get the best bang for your buck but I am not prepared to spend the time or energy for that purpose, at least not to the degree needed to have a significant effect. My life is too short and time too precious to devote much of it towards banging my head against the brick wall. I realize this could be interpreted as feeling hopeless and defeated but that's not how I see it.

What was I talking about?  Oh yeah, it seems to me that the main gist of the original post is that business/ corporations unchecked by (dirty word coming!) government regulation will almost surely do what best benefits them with little regard for you, me or our country. We've seen the results here and all over the world of hardily backed GOP (or insert DEM) policies that enable large corporations to become stupid rich at the expense of every single person below them. Humans are hopelessly fallible but humans drunk on money and power prove even more so, and unlike the town drunk who at worst might run into your car or throw up on your shoes, the intoxicated CEO can take out entire cities leaving people homeless and penniless. These people have no business running our country- we, the people do. Washington needs to break off its giddy affair with corporate money.

Based on the unlikely event of that happening, I'm off for my daily stroll with my dog to pursue a few unexplored canyons nearby in hope of discovering a treasure or two- an arrowhead, an elk sighting, or if I'm really lucky- a cat. If not my pooch will be happy enough chasing jackrabbits and benefiting their species by making them keener and faster, and I can enjoy the sights and smells and inspect the sunset at the appointed time. The good earth!

[rwanders]

 
Dug, I can agree with almost all your sentiments. Especially those pointing out the ability and propensity of some to manipulate information, data and most destructively, distort even basic rules of logic in order to pursue political agendas. Unfortunately, that describes a common trait, universal in politicians but present in almost all of us from time to time.

Usually, we are aware of it, recognize the puffery for what it is and apply our own BS filters. However, some among us become obsessed with the spinning, become "true believers" (sometimes called "kool aid drinkers"). In that state, rational, disciplined thought is abandoned and facts, half-truths, complete fabrications, illogical constructions, misinterpretations and plain old kookiness are cooked into a poisonous stew. The internet has accelerated and magnified this process becoming the Typhoid Mary of the conspiracy theorists.

It would just be a source of amusement, comic relief for our political processes but, it has come to distort the processes of debates, of our unending need for reasonable discourse about public issues to the point that, like you, many have just opted out of the whole sorry mess.

I understand your feelings ---I swing back and forth between exhaustion and utter astonishment at the obvious thirst for kool aid some of us have to the unrequited urge to explore their heads in search of clear and logical thinking. I often feel a kinship with Charlie Brown----just when I think I'm going to kick the ball over their tin foil goalposts, they pull it back and disappear into a new alternative universe.

A walk with the dog in a nice quiet part of the world sounds great-----think I'll join you in that alternate universe.

RW

[Windpower]

Good on ya dug --- we seem to be on the same page

We went to Outback tonight to enjoy life (and a good grilled salmon filet)


came home and I got the Bedini charger running

new post on that later ....

[Native_NM]

Good on ya dug --- we seem to be on the same page

We went to Outback tonight to enjoy life (and a good grilled salmon filet)


came home and I got the Bedini charger running

new post on that later ....

All the talk about corporations and such and then you go to Outback.  See Item #11:

http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/874691/000087469111000009/form10-k2010.htm#item11

[rwanders]

 

Hey Windpower,

Glad you and family had good evening and good dinner. Was that salmon a real wild Alaskan salmon, maybe even a Copper River Red? (a treat rivaled only by ones from the Kenai or Yukon Rivers).

Despite our lively exchanges on this forum, I truly wish for all the blessings of a happy and prosperous life for you and yours. I enjoy the rough and tumble of our exchanges and always learn something new.

In an era when so many trim their sails to every political breeze of the moment, it is a testament to your character that you remain steadfast in your beliefs and defend them so fiercely.

RW

[Native_NM]

Hey Windpower,

Glad you and family had good evening and good dinner. Was that salmon a real wild Alaskan salmon, maybe even a Copper River Red? (a treat rivaled only by ones from the Kenai or Yukon Rivers).

Despite our lively exchanges on this forum, I truly wish for all the blessings of a happy and prosperous life for you and yours. I enjoy the rough and tumble of our exchanges and always learn something new.

In an era when so many trim their sails to every political breeze of the moment, it is a testament to your character that you remain steadfast in your beliefs and defend them so fiercely.

RW

I couldn't agree more.  The thing that makes life interesting is diversity in opinions.  If all politicians were as true to their beliefs as your average countryplans.com member we would all be better off. 

[Native_NM]

rwanders-  I really don't think I feel helpless, well maybe to the practical extent of reality, but not helpless in my everyday affairs or livelihood- definitely not defeated. On the contrary I spend most days content and satisfied, breaking only now and then to vent a little such as now. My usual thoughts about the state of affairs are in reference to my own, my family and my friends, and I feel grateful and privileged to have lived in a time of such prosperity, good health, and though not particularly peaceful, at least myself and my family have been spared from the direct horrors of war.

Based on the unlikely event of that happening, I'm off for my daily stroll with my dog to pursue a few unexplored canyons nearby in hope of discovering a treasure or two- an arrowhead, an elk sighting, or if I'm really lucky- a cat. If not my pooch will be happy enough chasing jackrabbits and benefiting their species by making them keener and faster, and I can enjoy the sights and smells and inspect the sunset at the appointed time. The good earth!

You might already know this, but you are already far richer, in many respects, than your average CEO.  I long for the day of a small, quiet place in the country or woods that I built myself, not a debt to anyone, and where my wife and I could walk the dog and enjoy the sights and smells of earth.

[Native_NM]

Good thing the public sector (government) is around to remind me of how overpaid the greedy private sector is....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailybeast/20110527/ts_dailybeast/14359_fanniefreddieexecspaid34millionafterbillionsinlosses;_ylt=AjaK4TWDmZ7w2FKoAwW7NwFg.3QA;_ylu=X3oDMTRzcWY1dWs1BGFzc2V0A2RhaWx5YmVhc3QvMjAxMTA1MjcvMTQzNTlfZmFubmllZnJlZGRpZWV4ZWNzcGFpZDM0bWlsbGlvbmFmdGVyYmlsbGlvbnNpbmxvc3NlcwRjY29kZQN0b3BnbXB0b3AyMDBwb29sBGNwb3MDNQRwb3MDNQRzZWMDeW5fdG9wX3N0b3JpZXMEc2xrA29iYW1hc21pbGxpbw--

[Windpower]

All the talk about corporations and such and then you go to Outback.  See Item #11:

http://sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/874691/000087469111000009/form10-k2010.htm#item11

Well I am not going to live long enough to read that link. 

I have a choice where to spend my money -- Outback provides pretty good food for a reasonable price -- that works for me

[Windpower]

Hey Windpower,

Glad you and family had good evening and good dinner. Was that salmon a real wild Alaskan salmon, maybe even a Copper River Red? (a treat rivaled only by ones from the Kenai or Yukon Rivers).

Despite our lively exchanges on this forum, I truly wish for all the blessings of a happy and prosperous life for you and yours. I enjoy the rough and tumble of our exchanges and always learn something new.

In an era when so many trim their sails to every political breeze of the moment, it is a testament to your character that you remain steadfast in your beliefs and defend them so fiercely.

RW

You know it had that good Sockeye flavor and was called Alaskan salmon ... delicious

I see you are from south central AK   

I went moose hunting in the Chugach Mountains with Austin Meekin back in 96 -- it was a great trip even though I did not get my moose 

I envy your location --(well maybe not during Nov -- through March)   

we all have to find what works for our own sanity I guess

good to hear from you

[Native_NM]

Well I am not going to live long enough to read that link.  

I have a choice where to spend my money -- Outback provides pretty good food for a reasonable price -- that works for me

It says the President of Outback makes tens of millions a year....

[rwanders]

 

I know they're truly a heart attack on a plate but, if anyone in the dinner group orders one of their "bloomin onions" I can't resist a taste----quickly followed by rapid fire additional bites until the last delicious, greasy delights are just a queasy feeling in my stomach.

They don't have the best steaks around but, they're dependably not bad and the price is reasonable. Running a successful restaurant any time is an achievement, a whole chain of them is really hard and I don't begrudge the CEO his financial success. A well run private business, not dependent on taxpayer money, is a living testament to the best of capitalism---even if the restaurant business is closer to slave labor.

[Native_NM]

Well I am not going to live long enough to read that link. 

I have a choice where to spend my money -- Outback provides pretty good food for a reasonable price -- that works for me

Say you invented a product or provided a service.  A popular one.  Millions of people wanted it, and you made 10 cents per unit net.  Every year you made millions.  Does that make you greedy?  At some point do you have a responsibility to work for free?  What if you made millions and your neighbor made nothing because nobody wanted his product or service?   Just trying to foster some honest debate and thinking.

[Windpower]

"Say you invented a product or provided a service.  A popular one.  Millions of people wanted it, and you made 10 cents per unit net.  Every year you made millions.  Does that make you greedy? "


Greedy ? not necessarily, that is called success in today's paradigm

but if you grew and grew and finally after 20 years you knew you could fire your factory workers that had partnered with you in your success and transfer the jobs to Shanghai and make an additional .1 cent per unit and take a tax deduction for closing down your factory to boot --- yeah I think that is getting close to greedy.



" At some point do you have a responsibility to work for free?"

While the income tax legality is another complete argument ---in today's legal framework, work for free ?-- no, but you should pay your 'fair share of the taxes' not the 15% or less that the top 1 % earners in the US pay (according to the IRS for 2008)


Just a comment on CEO pay from my own company

Our CEO (working for the company for ~6 years,  a Harvard business school 'wiz kid' at 41 years old, who in his first 3 years crippled the service team by arbitrailly dividing the field engineers based on his 'business model'--and CEO for almost 3 years)  pulled 38 million in compensation last year -- we actually did very well, record profit and record earnings per share
 
The average raise for us worker bees was   

wait for it



1.6 %


did I mention that they decided that we were 'over market compensation' in vacation time -- they cut max PTO (Paid Time Off for sick days and vacation days) from 30 days to 25 days

they cut our expense account meal allowance to $40 per day (this is the same meal allowance guidline I had 25 years ago) but I am sure our CEO follows this guideline too   

[Native_NM]

Success is ok, but just not too much...is what I read from your response?

While the effective tax rate for the richest is low, the dollars are large.  The earned income of the richest families is taxed at a much higher rate than it is for the rest of us.  Capital gains taxes are low.  They were scheduled to revert to 28%+, and Congress extended the cuts.  The same IRS website also indicates that most of the tax revenue collected comes from the top 3,000 returns.  That means out of 300,000,000 citizens, just a few families pay most of the taxes.  If "fair share" is a concern or criteria, then clearly half the families don't pay their share, as they have an effective tax rate of zero.  Further, the IRS website indicates that the lowest quartile have an effective tax rate that is negative.  They get back more than they had withheld.  But since we are talking percentages.....

Depending on how large your company is, $38 million might not be that large in percentage terms.  In absolute dollars, it is a lot of money,  and I don't personally think anyone is worth that much.  But if I was a major stockholder of a company and the CEO was making me hundreds of millions or billions, it might not seem that much.  Oh wait, I am indirectly a shareholder, as my 401(k) depends on the market to make me enough money to retire on.  

Most small business owners pay themselves more as a percentage of sales or profit than any large business owner ever could.  For example, a small business might gross a million and the owner pays himself $50,000.  That is 5 percent of sales.  Wal-Mart grosses over $400 billion.  Their guy gets $20 million, which is 0.0005%.  Who is greedier?  Is the small business guy worth 1000 times as much as the CEO who has thousands of stores and millions of employees on his back?  The small guy has a few employees and a few customers.  The Fortune 500 CEO - just a bit more responsibility for a lot smaller percentage of the pie.  

I agree that 1.6% is a small increase given inflation, both reported and unreported (food and energy).  On the other hand, it was 1.6% more than I got.  

Since fairness is important, then it only seems fair that you don't get more leave than the other people in your industry.

Since it is unlikely that you have the same entertaining requirements, or are dealing at the same level as the CEO, it is not a fair comparison.  Nobody said the world was fair.

[Windpower]

the top 13,312 returns in the 'over $10,000,000 per year' category payed 20.9 % of their income in income tax

I we look at the middle of the income tax brackets  roughly 50% of the total income of the US is made by those in the 250,000 per year and up brackets while the bottom 50% of income is made by those earning less than $250,000

Certainly the top earners get considerably more benefit from the infrastructure that the US Government provides from the taxes: Safety, security from invasion through a strong military, legal system, communication infrastructure,  power generation, transportation, patent protection  etc etc

  arguably then they should pay more in taxes than someone making $40,000 per year that rarely if ever flies, almost never needs legal protection, uses very little of the tremendous power the country has built with the taxes.

But the the bottom 50% of the income pays as much as the top 50%

Andd what about Social Security why is it that anyone making more that ~$105,000 is exempt from paying on income over that arbitrary figure

The Supreme court has ruled the the FICA is a tax on income like any other direct tax -- it is not at all a 'trust fund' for lower wage folks. It is a tax on those of us making less than $105,000 per year that high income payers are largely exempt from.

[Native_NM]

And how much of the total income tax?  Their returns are less than 0.5% of the total returns yet account for 8.1% of the total tax.  The top 3% of the returns accounted for over half of the $1+ trillion paid in personal taxes.  

I guess that's why anyone making over $250,000 is deemed rich?

I disagree.  If you want to spread the wealth, then you also have to spread the benefit.  The poor actually use more public services, including police and medical services, than the rich, who have access to private services.  This is well documented.  

Lots of people making less than $40,000 fly and drive.  Which is harder on the infrastructure?  The richest of the rich pay tax at a rate 3000 times higher than the $40,000 year guy.  I doubt he uses 3000 times the service or receives 3000 times the benefit.

False.  The IRS site has the data.  You are confusing gross income and taxable income.

They are exempt because it is not a tax, but an insurance plan.  It was not designed to be a retirement plan.  I'm sure the rich would not have a problem increasing the wage base as long as the expected benefit rose also.  SS benefits originally were accrued and paid proportional to the deposits made - similar to a savings account.  The less you made, the less you contributed, and the smaller the benefit.  The formula was equal for years.  The Democrats changed the formula to use the contributions of the rich to subsidize the poor.  This is well documented at the SS website.  They have the formulas on their site, and discuss the program in detail.  Some of you want the rich to pay insurance premiums into a system they can never collect on.  I doubt you would pay your auto insurance company double premiums so that some guy who could not afford his premium could drive.  Or a better analogy, you have two cars, both of which you insure, and when you make a claim the insurance company says "sorry, we used your premium to cover some guy who could not make his premium on his own so there is nothing left for us to cover your loss"  That is EXACTLY what some of you want, and exactly what happens now.  Raising the limit without raising the benefit is illegal in the current schema of the SS plan.

False.  It is not a tax.  It is an insurance contribution.  There is more to the Flemming ruling than you will find on Wikipedia.

[Windpower]

This is just one case of many that uphold the FACT that the Social Security TAX is a TAX like any other.


Having thus raised the money, the Supreme Court said that Congress could, in its future discretion, spend that money for whatever Congress then judged to be the general welfare of the country. The Court held that Congress has no constitutional power to earmark or segregate certain kinds of tax proceeds for certain purposes, whether the purposes be farm-price supports, foreign aid or social security payments.


U.S. vs. Butler, 297 U.S. 1; Stewart Machine Company vs. Davis, 301 U.S, 548; Helvering vs. Davis, 301 U.S. 619.

[rwanders]

Congress certainly has always treated it like a general purpose piggy bank while letting much of public believing it is all in a "trust fund". Actually it is but, the only assets in the fund are IOUs from the Federal government-----or actually IOUs from YOU and I as taxpayers.  That make you feel secure?

Apologists for the SSA debacle like to point out that we actually just owe it to ourselves so it isn't really a "debt"--------feel better yet?

I'm sure our children and grandchildren and their children won't mind paying that "debt" for us---maybe future generations will pay for theirs-----LOL. Eventually that bubble will burst and the crisis will finally give some congress the will and courage to act. Makes Bernie Madoff look like a petty thief doesn't it?

Didn't even take a conspiracy to pull it off---just normal willingness of voters to believe that government benefits to them really are free---that "rich guy" behind the tree will pay for it all.