Where do you stand?

[Jens]

Knowledge and spirituality are linked, that as one increases, the other decreases, to where we become, "like one of these little children".

[NM_Shooter]

Anyway, that's the way I've been taught to see it... take it for what it is.

I think you've been taught very well.  Kudos to your teachers.

-f-

[Sassy]

What a great community we have!    

As for knowledge - the Bible does state that the people will always be following after knowledge but never finding the truth... 

For me, once I became a believer in Christ, so much more understanding opened up to me - coming in faith in the simplicity of a child, but becoming "wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove."  I find that I'm not afraid to examine what is going on in the world or look at myself & all my weaknesses & fallibilities...  it's also given me the desire to study other religions & beliefs so that I might better understand where other people are coming from - then I can hopefully intelligently communicate with them.  That's what Jesus did... he met the people where they were.  Also, the Apostle Paul - when he went to Athens, he discussed philosophy & spoke about the people's "unknown god" ...

At my work, I am with people from all over the world - doctors & nurses who are from Russia, Ukraine, India, China, Philippines, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, Canada, Australia & yes, a few from the USA  - they are Muslims, Hindu, Seiks (sp), Catholics, atheists, agnostics, humanists, Buddhists, homosexuals, protestants, holy rollers, you name it. It is important to be able to communicate with everyone - not to lose my own beliefs, but to be able to share them as they share their own.   When TRUTH is spoken, it will go to the heart & speak to anyone who is truly looking for it. 

[Jens]

Amen Sassy.  The heart of all religions is love and tolerance.  My how so many around the world have strayed.  I sure do wish we had gotten out there to visit you guys when we were living in Santa Cruz.  Maybe one of these days we will make a trip out there, and stop on our way through.

[Sassy]

That would be wonderful, Jens!  We'd love to have you & your family visit.  I have 2 sons - one almost 30 & the other 26 y/o;  Glenn has 2 sons 36 & 32 I think (he doesn't even remember how old they are) & a daughter 26.  We'd have to get everyone together, I think you'd like them. 

[StinkerBell]

My feeling is that I do not argue (I will joyfully discuss and if I know the person well enough debate) Biblical teachings. For me it is not worth arguing over non salvation issues. I may not agree with another persons insight on a passage, but I always take it to heart, cause ya never know! I believe in God and that the Bible is the inerrant word of God. As for religion itself, I am not religious in the traditional understood sense. I have a respect for the RCC as I do the Methodist. I may not agree with them but I do see how some of their conclusions came about,  even if I do not agree I ask myself, is this a salvation issue? If it isn't then grace comes into play for both sides of a disagreement. I do not agree 100% with my Pastor or my Husband. But I do love pointing out to the Hubby he HAS to LOVE ME, when I do not have that same requirement....

[Bill Houghton]

Here folks, I see courage.  Thank you for speaking your mind.  Hardly anyone does any more.  Some social things are indicators that we have too much time on our hands.  If we all toiled from morning till evening tending our gardens and animals to keep food on the table, we'd have precious little time to care what the next guy believes.  Hold your beliefs, let them guide your lives, live, work and be happy.

Merry Christmas.

Bill Houghton

[NM_Shooter]

I have a friend who says that while most people refuse to discuss politics or religion, he believes that those are just about the only important things to talk about.  I like to argue politics, but I don't argue religion.  I can't decide if I am respectfully tolerant of other's religious beliefs, or if I am just a wimp    Maybe a little of both.  I like hearing what other folks believe.  It helps me get an angle on my own religion. 

-f-

[Redoverfarm]

Well I didn't want to insight a riot but thought this was important enough to capture God in the holiday and apparently it has attained that goal.  It also sort of tells me the kind of people that visit this great site.  All good mind you.  They say that you never know a person until you learn what they stand for.  God Bless You and Merry Christmas.

[Jens]

Thanks Red, God bless you too.  Religion and politics are my two favorite topics, because they are generally the things that most people are most passionate about.  When two or more can have discussion, or even debate, yet not argue (in the sense that one has to be right) about the issues and their beliefs, that is when the true magic of this human experiment happens I think.  BTW Stinker, I am not into religion in the least either, but love God, and our church...heck, anywhere that people truly rejoice within their hearts!

I think I have said it before already, but I will say again, you guys are all so awesome! 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Yep, there's a great bunch of folks here... A thread like this shows that everyone takes their faith seriously and really thinks about it; and that's all that matters. As long as you are always seeking the truth, you will find it. Like mother Theresa said, "If you are a Muslim, be a good Muslim. If you are Christian, be a good Christian."

[glenn kangiser]

Before we invaded Iraq, I had little understanding of or respect for the Muslims.  It was only after I came to see how we were treating them like dogs to be slaughtered that I began to study and understand them.  Of course they kill our soldiers.  They are fighting for what they see as an invasion of their homeland.  We want oil , power and Haliburton no bid contracts.  No need to try to justify it by hiding behind some later made up semi-just cause.  People and families are dying here.  To see how concerned we are about seriously helping them Google Abu Ghraib.

It was during the Rummy "Shock and Awe" -- or the "Aw Shucks" as some call it that I started reading Riverbend's Blog.  I received personal replies from her to my e-mails sometimes even as her home city of Baghdad was being pounded to rubble.  She has American friends....still.

She Finally had to leave and went to Syria and hasn't updated since last year.  She had lots of Christian friends before the invasion, and I read of her disguising one of her Christian girlfriends as a Muslim so she could get out of the country unharmed.  She said that car bombs were pretty well unknown there before the invasion.

I watched her go from imitating a western way of life, listening to western music, and loving it to losing so many of her relatives to the occupation that she did not like us so well at the end. 

She's not mad at you and I but at politics, greed  and leaders -even their own criminal puppets- and the situations that have caused the loss of her home and loved ones.

4-23-04 Her reply to me after I told her we had missed her ...  She hadn't updated for a long time.

Dear Glenn,

Thanks so much for your words. It means a lot to have so many people concerned about my well-being. I can hardly believe it sometimes. I will try
to write more often but sometimes it can be so difficult doing something as
trivial as blogging when the world seems to be going crazy outside of my
window.

Thanks again Glenn... hope you and yours are safe and happy always.

Regards,
R.

Damn, She's a real person and a seemingly nice one at that.... World going crazy outside her window... yes , I guess constant bombings, shootings and home invasions could be a little distracting.  River was an IT Computer professional in Baghdad prior to the bombing and writes in great English.  I encourage you to check out some of the archives of her blog.  http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

I do not agree with all of their beliefs except to be good and I do not expect them to agree with mine.

What I do see is where religion and politics have been used to help business, power and greed destroy the citizens of the world to the best of their ability, as long as there is power to be gained and money to be made or populations to be destroyed.

Many may pray for good things and their families at this time of year, but for me ... if I pray, it will be for Riverbend and her family, and the Iraqi's this unjust war has destroyed, killed  and displaced, along with my concerns for the rest of my friends and their families.  They are people too.

[glenn kangiser]

My point is that while most of us are safe and fine here, our families are all well.  We have plenty to eat.  We are grateful, happy, etc.,  that is all fine and dandy.  Seriously good. 

It's just that by way of association and our implied agreement with our governments wars for oil, greed and power, our standing by as they make their surgical strikes without our agreement.  Our CIA plots to overthrow governments - stir up the people and start wars for others to kill each other or their leaders.  Yeah, a nice clean surgical strike is the story they tell to we, the sheeple.  Surgical all right.  They just removed the body parts of a bunch of real people....implied to be with our approval and by association, with the approval of a Christian nation.

The short ending to my comments I guess, is, Would my God approve of what is being done in his name, and am I responsible for the actions my leaders carry out in my name, again by association? 

I hope not, if I don't agree with their policies. 

I want ALL citizens of the world to have a Happy New Year and peace with their families, together in one piece, no matter what nationality or religion, whether or not they are sitting above a large reservior of oil, whether or not a large American corporation profits from it's and their exploitation.

I know.  It's been this way since the beginning of time.

Just a good time of year to think of them too, eh?

[ScottA]

It's a scary world. I for one feel lucky to have been born in the relative safety of the USA. That could all change at any time though. I'll take what I can get. I don't see us as having any real enemies, only those we create for ourselves.

[glenn kangiser]

That is the way I see it, or those who are created for us or created and blamed on someone else, as the case may be.

[MountainDon]

Here we were having a nice little discussion about our personal religious beliefs. We have had an assortment of beliefs stated with some divergence of opinion. We all agree there is room for differing views with a predominant theme of "Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Man" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I really appreciated several of the views expressed; I liked them all, but thought a couple were outstanding.

Then along comes a post that drags the Iraq War into it; CIA plots, Haliburton, and so on. We were talking about personal religious beliefs, not about the ethics of war as waged by one country on another. Not even close to the same topic. This is one time I believe thread drift should be voluntarily restricted to be closer to the original thought, or at least to the thought line that has been developed by the previous topic contributors.

Maybe that's just me and my old fashioned, sometimes simplistic way of looking at things. Not everything the USA does is evil, corrupt or self serving.

Let's enjoy and celebrate Christmas and reflect on the true meaning and leave bashing to another topic.

Opinions may vary...

Merry Christmas!

[StinkerBell]

Merry Christmas MountainDon!

[glenn kangiser]

Sorry, Don but the way I think, the main topic directly spawned my reply after a couple other replies kind of sent me in that direction.

I was probably a bit out of line as I thought it was open for replies from all beliefs.  We were earlier acknowledging Chanuka and Ben Stein stated he was a Jew, and of course I have Jewish ancestors, so along with other beliefs I though it only fair that we acknowledge the Muslims -- the good ones, just as I will leave the Crusades out of this and the radical Christians who we don't want to be associated with I assume.

The main heading -- Where Do You Stand? and after the quoted Ben Stein article ... You Stated,

I agree with some of his points. About him being a Jew and not minding Christmas trees. Being tolerant of other religions and not having to give up saying Merry Christmas if one is a Christian.

This made me think of what it was like to be Muslim -  (I am not-but I think of opposites many times when I think of things) and how we have been taught in the last few years that they are enemies of Christians.  Most of them do not feel that they are.   I don't even know a lot of their sayings except their greetings such as  Insh'alla.  Kind of like If God wills --

Seems you did not want to hear my opinion or take on it   

You stated,

Here we were having a nice little discussion about our personal religious beliefs. We have had an assortment of beliefs stated with some divergence of opinion. We all agree there is room for differing views with a predominant theme of "Peace on Earth, Goodwill to Man" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". I really appreciated several of the views expressed; I liked them all, but thought a couple were outstanding.

Censorship - voluntarily? -- guaranteed - I censor myself more than anyone here,  but this seemed on topic and of value. 


Interesting that Muslims are reaching out to Christians and wanting to get along.  As  of last year, they sent a Christmas Greeting. 

Leading members of the group also plan to meet various Christian leaders at conferences planned over the coming year, so a network of Muslim-Christian discussions should develop. In his letter, of which I have obtained a copy, Prince Ghazi urges the Vatican not to want to make the best the enemy of the good. Dialogue is important, he argues,

    "even if it transpires that there are differences between us in the interpretation or comprehension of the text of this letter... These differences themselves are presumably also a matter for discussion between us, and should be an occasion for mutual respect and celebration, and not divisive disputation.

    "We, like you, also consider complete theological agreement between Christians and Muslims inherently not possible by definition, but still wish to seek and promote a common stance and cooperation based on what we do agree on."

Is this not also about religion and where we stand -- I feel all people of the world should get along and not be coerced into fighting and killing each other.  Is this not the spirit of the season?

Quoting the original Ben Stein article,

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

The above what brought me to the CIA plots, Oil, Haliburton, Iraq and so on. 

Seems greed, profit and power is the cause of so much killing that that the loss of conscience and not knowing right from wrong is being ingrained in our children. 

Do we teach our children to lie -- do we teach them that it is OK?  Do we confuse their thinking so that they don't know right from wrong?  Do we teach them about Santa Claus?

That is also where my mention of the Surgical strike came from.  Loss of conscience.  A surgical strike.  Sounds clean.  Smart bombs.  Even better.  Collateral damage --translated (dead civilains) Does this explain anything about where their conscience has gone? (getting to the original topic, which I quoted above).

Quoting again from the original Ben Stein article,

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out.  I think it has a great deal to do with 'WE REAP WHAT WE SOW.'

and then your statement, Don,

Let's enjoy and celebrate Christmas and reflect on the true meaning and leave bashing to another topic.

It seems the original topic was actually more about being nice to everyone to improve our world and see why it is the way it is... not just the Christian world , but the whole world.  The main topic heading about where do You stand seemed to apply directly to the poster of a reply.

It seems that limiting it to only the feel good fantasy and Santa Claus white lie, would be limiting it to less that the original intent of the topic and posted Ben Stein article.  True we may not want to hear my reply as it is not an ear tickler, but I do like to face reality rather than deceive myself. 

No hard feelings... just my honest response, and Happy Holidays to all of my friends here on the forum... seriously.

[Jens]

I agree with you Glen, that it was not entirely out of bounds to bring up the things you brought up.  Yes, nobody likes to hear that kind of talk in the middle of all the warm and fuzzies, and I don't think it was quite as on topic as the thread has been.  I wouldn't call it off-topic though.  This is not a guarded, personal thread IMO, but a discussion, and as discussions do, it has moved to another point worthy of discussion. 

I think that war is abhorrent, period!  I think that violence is detestable, period!  With that said, I have felt extreme anger toward someone else, to the point that the only two ways to deal with it were to let it go completely, or to end up in jail for the rest of my life.  I chose the former.  While I don't agree with war, or the reason that we are over there, I have had too many friends involved in it to not have the utmost respect for their professionalism, courage, and patriotism.  Yes, I said patriotism!  To fight for our country, and to take orders from our leaders, I regard as patriotism, regardless of agreeing with the reason (most of which the public will never know). 

A teenage boy was met at his house by a friend of his before school.  Before he walked out of the house, he walked up to his mother, who was passed out on the couch.  He took her shoes off, lifted her feet up onto the couch, put a blanket on her, kissed her forehead, and told her he loved her.  On their way to school, his friend asked him why he not only loved her, but tolerated her, "ever since your dad left, she's been out every night!  Everybody in town talks about her, and the things she does.  She is always drunk, she barely takes care of you, and everybody knows shes been with more men than I could even count."  The boy stopped walking, and with a straight face that showed neither anger, or offense, but frustration, he answered his friend.
      "She goes to work all day.  When she gets home, she pays the bills, and then she goes out and does what she does.  I am in no way proud of the things that she does, and I know that she gives me a bad name by her actions.  But at the end of the day, I know that she needs me just as much as I need her.  I know that she has kept me safe all of these years, and that if I were threatened in any way she would be there for me.  And if that is not enough, I love her."

      maybe that story doesn't make much sense to you, but that is how I feel about our country.  I don't agree, but I still love what we stand for.  Freedom, (although that gets very muddled at times), not just for us, but for anyone bullied who can't defend themselves.  I too know personally people from Iraq, as well as other war zones from the last 40 years.  They have all told me horror stories.  No matter the motives, whether I agree with war or not, we do stand as a voice for the voiceless, and pacifist or not, whether truth or lies, if we are helping people I will do my best to be positive. 

       But who is to decide whether or not we are helping people?  Most people probably think that it would be a big help to our kids, if we were forced to get cable TV, and video game machines!

Merry Christmas, happy chanukah, and God bless all of you.

Glen, if that was thread drift, thank you.  Does it still count as thread drift though, if people respond?

Sorry Don, and others, had to back up my boyyy!  Because, "he's a rebel and he'll never ever be, any good.  He's a rebel cause he never ever does, what he should...."

[MountainDon]

I thought the original topic was about God and about how we in the USA had removed his presence from our schools, our government and our lives. Second to that was the thought about how parents don't discipline their children and teach them values in order to have them "grow" a conscience.

I'll admit after reading Ben Stein's article my mind snapped to two religions, Judaism and Christianity, because those were the two Stein mentioned. I left Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Confucianism, Druidism, Native American Spirituality and dozens of other religions out in the cold. Sorry. However, any of those believers are welcome to jump in.

Anyhow Stein was talking about Jews and Christians. Those are specifically mentioned by Stein. And he was talking about America and why, as stated above, we in the USA had removed his presence from our schools, government and lives, and then wondered why things had gone to hell.

You ask if we teach our children to lie and confuse their ability to know right from wrong, by including Santa Claus in our celebration of Christmas? Sure Santa has no religious significance, but he's been a part of the western world's culture for centuries. I'll bet that virtually everyone with a Jewish or Christian background believed in Saint Nick for at least a few of their young years. Some of us figured out the Santa myth on own own, some had siblings break the news, some parents had to be the bearer of the "bad news". Some of us probably cried at the revelation. I seriously doubt that this belief in Santa has caused anyone to lose or not properly their conscience. Not believing in your God has a lot more to do with conscience.

The topic "Where Do You Stand" invites anyone to come forward and state their religious beliefs, add their thoughts to why has religion left the fabric of everyday American society. That's what folks were doing. It would be interesting to have a follower of Islam contribute, but there so far haven't been any.

In his last paragraph Stein begins, "Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell..."

I believe we can discuss that thought, and include the beliefs of Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc. in the discussion without getting into historical events like the Holocaust, the Inquisition, the Crusades, Mayan and Aztec human sacrifice, the Roman persecution of Christians, the Massachusetts Witch Hunts, the Mountain Meadows Massacre, Islamic jihads, of the current the Iraq War. Adding those to the discussion does nothing but inflame feelings and adds nothing constructive.

Of course, as always, opinions may vary. That's fine. That's America. At least we are still free to express opinion. Sometimes I'd simply like to not stray so far from the topic as introduced.

That's all I'm going to say on this. I have no desire to engage in a Flame War.

[Ernest T. Bass]

Actually, I find it kind of amusing that we are arguing over a thread drift in a religious beliefs-orientated discussion. I would have expected more conflict over scripture interpretation or something...    

[glenn kangiser]

It's all good, people... thanks for all of the replies.  Sorry I have to bow out for a bit but broke my computer power cord and hope to fix it.

I'll see if I can find a Muslim, and not just me who has observed them a bit-- may take a bit.  Best to all.

[StinkerBell]

Here I go with my unpopular stance.

My hubby and I have had made the choice not lie to our child about Santa. I could never understand as a child myself and find it even more confusing that a society participates in a lie. How can I tell lie to my child  that their is a santa, not only lie to him but it seems the western world will help me lie to him. To have him discover that santa is lie. How do I then tell him that you are right there is no santa son, but God exist. How would/could he believe me when I tell him about God? Especially when western society has already decided that God is not even welcomed in our schools.

I know this is a very unpopular view, I have even been told I am unamerican for this view and laughably been told I was unchristian.

[Ernest T. Bass]

I agree 100% Stink. Great analogy w/ God vs. santa. We have a zero tolerance policy in our family when it comes to lies, including the adults.

[Redoverfarm]

I guess two people can read the samething and derive two different meanings.  I for one only found one meaning in Bens article.  That being that we have removed God from everywhere except our hearts.  There is no mention of him in any public place in society except for church.  The children are not taught then 10 commandments because they do not appear anywhere except in the bible.  They are not learning it in schools.  I think when he(Ben) was stating that "We reap what we sow" was that by our actions to take god out of our schools and the public we are now paying the price for his absence.

I guess some see it differently than I but to me it is clear.