Small solar pump house

[Drew]

Hi everybody,

The irrigation line is almost done, so I'm doing some planning for my pump house.  Again, I'd be grateful for your advice.  (I've got to start thinking about endorsement spots for you guys, like NASCAR...  )

I have a well with a 120 v. pump and a 3'x5' concrete pad.  I hope to make a well house around it about the size of a large dog house.  My early drawing says 4'x5'.  It will hold the pump head, batteries, and control hardware (e.g., controller, inverter, terminal/switch box, etc.)

The solar panel will sit on the top of the shed roof.  The roof itself will be on hinges so I can tilt it up to get at the workings when I need to.

I've done my homework on solar systems and am confident for doing the small system.  The 120 v. pump needs 1.1 Kw to run.  I'd also like to put an outdoor socket on the outside of the l'il pump house.

The pump needs to run by a manual switch and by a float valve I plan to install in my permanent tank.  I'd also like to have a disconnect so I can safely work on the system.

The pump will fill the big plastic tank.  The pressure tank for the house is a down the road thing.  It won't be in the pump house, and I will likely fill it via a separate pump off the main plastic tank.

I think I need some sort of controller box for the disconnect, manual switch, and float valve.  I also imagine I need something between my inverter and my outdoor socket.  While the works will be in a little shed, I am concerned about the effects of moisture and how I should protect against it.

So what should I be looking for in terms of the switching box for the float valve, disconnect, socket, etc.?  If I keep my batteries out of the rain and standing puddles, will I be okay?

Thanks!

Drew

[NM_Shooter]

Hi Drew...

Keep your batteries out of the sun if you can, and make sure that their enclosure is vented.  Actually, the best protection against moisture damage is good ventilation.  SunSaver battery charge controllers are the best I've used.

Did you size your system for the startup requirements of the pump, or just the run requirements? 

Consider putting a pressure accumulator and pressure switch in the well house, as this will keep it from cycling every time the tank drops just a little bit.  Depending on how much flow you are needing from your pump, you can use a simple float controller from an evaporative cooler.  When the float comes up, the flow shuts off, and pressure builds in your pump house accumulator.  Pressure switch shuts off the pump when the accumulator is full. 

Be careful that you GFCI everything.

-f-

[Willy]

Hi everybody,

The irrigation line is almost done, so I'm doing some planning for my pump house.  Again, I'd be grateful for your advice.  (I've got to start thinking about endorsement spots for you guys, like NASCAR...  )

I have a well with a 120 v. pump and a 3'x5' concrete pad.  I hope to make a well house around it about the size of a large dog house.  My early drawing says 4'x5'.  It will hold the pump head, batteries, and control hardware (e.g., controller, inverter, terminal/switch box, etc.)

The solar panel will sit on the top of the shed roof.  The roof itself will be on hinges so I can tilt it up to get at the workings when I need to.

I've done my homework on solar systems and am confident for doing the small system.  The 120 v. pump needs 1.1 Kw to run.  I'd also like to put an outdoor socket on the outside of the l'il pump house.

The pump needs to run by a manual switch and by a float valve I plan to install in my permanent tank.  I'd also like to have a disconnect so I can safely work on the system.

The pump will fill the big plastic tank.  The pressure tank for the house is a down the road thing.  It won't be in the pump house, and I will likely fill it via a separate pump off the main plastic tank.

I think I need some sort of controller box for the disconnect, manual switch, and float valve.  I also imagine I need something between my inverter and my outdoor socket.  While the works will be in a little shed, I am concerned about the effects of moisture and how I should protect against it.

So what should I be looking for in terms of the switching box for the float valve, disconnect, socket, etc.?  If I keep my batteries out of the rain and standing puddles, will I be okay?

Thanks!

Drew

Kind of hard to tell you how to wire all this and know for sure you understand what I am saying. So lets do it this way. You tank will need a high level cut off float for the pump along with a low level turn on float. You can get this  on a cord with a 120V plug from Grainger. The float will take some time adjusting it but you will need a long section of cord for the float head. Use a peice of 1" PVC Pipe going to the bottom of the tank inside. You need to leave enought loose cord that it will turn on allmost at the bottom level in the tank and off at high level. You also need to make sure this pipe is in the middle of the tank so it won't tangle going up and down or get stuck between the pipe and side of tank. The cord from the float will have a Male/Feamale outlet at one end. Plug the pump into the feamale side and a cord into the male side going to your power sourse. This can also work as a disconect and make it easy to work on if needed. I believe you are talking a gravity system feeding your cabin that is why you said you will add a pressure tank later. You will need another pump for the pressure tank cause you can't fill the non pressure tank and the house pressure tank with the same pump. The cabin pump can just have a pressure switch to control it feeding the tank for your max/min off and on. You can use you breaker to control the power to it for working on it. Your inverter should have built in protection but since it can put out more power then the pump needs you need to fuse or breaker the pump to protect it for the load it uses. Other than a heat sourse during winter that shoud take care of it. Tap your plug off the well circuit for doing things unless you are using it for perminuit power sourse. I would put a small 6 cir panel off the inverter to do these things with. Good Luck, Mark

[firefox]

You might want to invest in a solargizer system for your batteries.
I am not related to this firm in any way. I have three historical Military trucks that
I maintain for shows and to drive veterans in when they have parades to show our appreciation
for their sacrafices for our country.

I discovered these solargizers as this is what the military uses on their tanks, armored and non armored
vehicles to maintain their batteries. This is not a battery charger. What it does is send a high frequency pulse
through the battery to break up the sulphate build up. The sulphate build up is what eventually kills your battery.  once it coats the plates the battery stops charging.

I have been using them in two of my trucks and will be adding them to the third as well. So far they have
extended the usefull life of my batterys long beyond their normal lifetime. If you need the gory details,
I believe there is a link somewhere on their site with the detailed explanation.

I was able to buy my kits from a surplus dealer so  I got them for a little less than these guys. I suspect you
can probably get them on ebay for less, but I personally am still leary of ebay.

The settup is very easy, but pay attention to the instructions about not cutting or splicing the wires that go from the little cube to the battery terminals. These wires need to be exactly the length that they are manufactured for. Something to do with signal characteristics or some such. The other wire that goes to the little solar panel can be cut and spliced with no problems.

Sorry for the long post, but wanted to make this clear since replacing batteries all the time is expensive.
Hope this helps,
Bruce


http://www.scsolar.com/Solargizer.html

[MountainDon]

Mark covered the float switches quite well.   

What kind of batteries Drew? Vented wet cell? If so you really need to isolate them somehow and direct vent their enclosure to the exterior up high. Under charge conditions they will produce H and O. That's a bad mix in a small enclosed space with electrical apparatus. You want to get rid of the H for sure.

It's also not a good idea to mount any equipment above the batteries as over time corrosion could be a problem. Code prohibits any electrical equipment above batteries.

Re: the disconnects. Is meeting electrical code required? That will flavor you legal choices.

Just to be certain you know... most AC equipment such as switches, breakers and fuses are not rated for DC use. Mainly that's due to the more rugged construction required by DC, due to DC's great propensity to create spectacular arcs when making or breaking a circuit under load. DC equipment is also more pricey because of that. 

If you can use it, here's a very nice well priced 250 amp 125 VDC rated circuit breaker. Works well in between the battery bank and the inverter.



available as long as special ordered stock lasts at http://solarseller.com/dc_circuit_breakers__dc_circuit_breaker_ul_listed_to_125_volts_dc.htm   Down to 7 left. I have #'s 8 and 9.   

[Willy]

Don is doing a good job on the Battrys. Back to the floats in having a long tether on the float head it gives you a wide area of pump operation. Longer the tether more area of water moved in the tank before the pump comes on or goes off. Using a TYE WRAP to hold the tethered float head makes for easy adjustment. You can plug a light into the outlet end and get some idea of the adjustment but it will take water to get it right. Because of this the water splashing around can cause the float to bob if you just dump it in the top and let it fall to the bottom. So on your fill pipe run it to the bottom and put a TEE on the end of the pipe so the water goes out the sides of it. This will keep the turbulance to a minium and stir up less silt if you have some from your well. Using a TEE causes the water to not whirlpool also cause it comes out both ways. Mark

[Willy]

Don is doing a good job on the Battrys. Back to the floats in having a long tether on the float head it gives you a wide area of pump operation. Longer the tether more area of water moved in the tank before the pump comes on or goes off. Using a TYE WRAP to hold the tethered float head makes for easy adjustment. You can plug a light into the outlet end and get some idea of the adjustment but it will take water to get it right. Because of this the water splashing around can cause the float to bob if you just dump it in the top and let it fall to the bottom. So on your fill pipe run it to the bottom and put a TEE on the end of the pipe so the water goes out the sides of it. This will keep the turbulance to a minium and stir up less silt if you have some from your well. Using a TEE causes the water to not whirlpool also cause it comes out both ways. Mark

Here is a link to a float that will handle a 13 amp 120 volt pump and normaly closed (down posision) sold by Grainger. Mark

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/3BY80

[glenn kangiser]

SQ Flex is a solar pump, but doesn't need the batteries.  Runs direct from the panels -- all kinds of voltages.  Works great.

http://www.grundfos.com/web/homeus.nsf/Webopslag/5182E7DA930BFF5986256B7D00567651

[Drew]

Thanks for this, guys.  Looks like we have the major bases covered.  I'm sure I'll have a couple of follow up questions once I get the electrical part onto paper.

I need to do this in phases (so to speak) since I'll be manually filling the 200 gallon tank that came with the place until I replace it with a big one.  For that I need two things:  Something to water and a job to pay for it.

But it's all good.  I'm going to set up my first row with a timer to feed an in-line dripper.  It's going to help me keep a row of compost moist through the summer (Thanks Glenn for the pointers in the Garden Thread).  I'll fill the tank manually every week and run the thing as a proof of concept.  That way I can screw up tweak the system before I spend my money. 

I don't have the batteries yet, but I was looking at the closed dry cells.  There is also a Xantrex unit that's big enough to drive the pump and would be useful all over the farm after I replaced it with permanent batteries.  The water I get will of course be a function of the PV cells I can attach to the system (Assuming the batteries are rated at more than a few AH, which is safe to say).  Right now I have a 15 watt PV cell and 38 degrees of latitude.  That will be the gating factor until I can spend more money on a PV cell.  But as usual, that will give me the opportunity to take it a step at a time.

Lucky me. 

[glenn kangiser]

I would suggest being sure the xantrex inverter is sine wave so you don't have to replace it when you are not happy with the modified sine wave.  I already did that and spent the wasted money for you.  Possibly make sure it is stackable so you can get 240v if you want.

I don't know about the batteries you are talking about -- if not deep cycle, heavy plates, they won't likely last log.

If you are doing anything serious I would recommend nothing less than 24v system and nothing less than L16'S -- or equivalent -- on the cheap, equivalent could be a used rejuvenated forklift battery. 

Small system - 24 v inverter, cheap - short life could be a couple 12v Costco Marine batteries but don't expect much in the way of power -- or life -- minimal power and battery life of a year or so.

A generator and gas could pump water until you get time to build up right.

We can talk more as we learn more of what you want to do and what resources you can commit. 

EBay has used inverters but you have to be careful-- that said I did get a good one.  I also have a friend who may have something. 

[Willy]

Just run the system with a cheap generator till you have enought money and parts to do it right. Having a big tank you can fill it up and shut off the generator. You can set up your floats wiring ect to all the pumps and run the whole works that way. Then when you can aford the big buck solar system buy it. Once the big tank is filled move the generator to the pressure pump feeding the blader tank. Mark

[Drew]

Mark, that makes a whole lot of sense.

Glenn, Mark's approach would let me get my ducks in a row for the right system like you mentioned. 

The sales guys in my last job would refer to you folks as the "Sales Prevention Team".

Good work!   

[MountainDon]

If you are doing anything serious I would recommend nothing less than 24v system and nothing less than L16'S -- or equivalent -- on the cheap, equivalent could be a used rejuvenated forklift battery. 

Small system - 24 v inverter, cheap - short life could be a couple 12v Costco Marine batteries but don't expect much in the way of power -- or life -- minimal power and battery life of a year or so.

Drew, you're gonna get more opinions about batteries than a dog has fleas.

A 24 VDC system is better than 12 VDC in the long haul.

So, for what it's worth, avoid 12 v marine batteries like the plague. If you're wanting something inexpensive, 6 v golf cart batteries have thicker plates than so-called deep cycle / marine batteries and don't really cost much more. They're also available at Costco & Sam's Club.

L-16's offer more storage capacity than golf carts and last longer. The actual cost per watt-hour is actually very favorable for cart batteries IF they are well cared for. Depending upon what amount of storage you need golf carts could be a lower cost temp step on the way to a more permanent setup.

The only "dry" batteries I'm aware of that are worth the bother of installing are AGM (Absorbed Glass Mat). They are not gel cell batteries. Gel cells don't take abuse very well, AGM do. AGM are pricey for the watts, but nice in that there's no fumes or gases, no corrosion, no need to add water, you can mount them anywhere, even upside down...

My major criticism of used forklift batteries is that you need a forklift to move them. 1000+ pounds

Question: how many hours a day or week do you figure that 120 VAC 1100 watt pump is going to run? What you need for batteries hinges on this and how many useful sin-hours ( should read sun-hours... see Glenn having fun at my expense below) you receive on an average worst day during the season(s) you need the water.

[glenn kangiser]

how many useful sin-hours you receive on an average worst day

Hey Drew, I suggest you start with about 3 sin hours a day, then on Sunday, say 10 hail Mary's and sin no more -- for a day or two -- process repeats weekly ...OK? 

[MountainDon]

I haven't tossed many "numbers" out for a while, so since batteries are a subject dear to my heart I thought I'd toss out some tonight since it's a slow night and I'm home alone this evening, and I need a break from my book on American Whaling history.

Comparing L-16 type batteries (6 volt High Capacity type HC 420 amp-hour)
with L-16 General Type G (6 v 375 amp-hour),
and Golf Cart type (6 v 220 amp-hour)
Prices used are in my area
Batteries wired in series, and series-parallel for 24 VDC system

                              L-16 HC          L-16 G          Golf Cart
                               420 AH           375 AH          220 AH
Qty of batteries            4                  4                  8
AH total                     420                375              440
cost ea                     $340             $260              $70 (Sam's Club)
total cost for set        $1360            $1040            $560
life expectancy           3 - 7 yr          3 - 7 yr          3 - 5 yr   or considerably less if you treat them poorly
  7 yr life, cost per yr   $195              $150   
  6 yr life, cost per yr   $225              $175           
  5 yr life, cost per yr   $275              $208             $115
  4 yr life, cost per yr   $340              $260             $140
  3 yr life, cost per yr                                           $190
  2 yr life, cost per yr                                           $280

Figures do not include freight or the time required to monitor and water twice as many cells with the GC batteries. The Golf Cart batteries have approx 17% more capacity than the L-16 G and 5% more than L-16 HC.

Whatever you do, keep 'em charged and topped up with H₂O

[MountainDon]

...you start with about 3 sin hours a day, then on ...

Crap!   

[glenn kangiser]

I assume the battery costs are up now, but were about $160 from the local manufacturer... got four L16 375's in 2005.  My oldest are from 2004 --8 of them.  Newer was a set of 4 added in 2005.  All are still doing well.

[glenn kangiser]

Sorry 'bout that ,  Don.

[MountainDon]

Can't always trust that spell checker.   

Lead is up just like copper and both types of gold (black & yeller)

Of course when/if you can find a local assembler you might save some bucks

[MountainDon]

Thing is how many watts would a good sin-hour be good for?   

[Willy]

...you start with about 3 sin hours a day, then on ...

Crap!   

My last place I lived at I had a well that only gave me 100 gals a day of water. I learned how to use water pretty good over a 9 year period. I had a 250 gal plastic tank and once a week I would slip it in my truck and make a 24 mile round trip drive to get water. I got used to it and it was no big deal after a while. Now the battry thing and solar charger to keep them good just to fill a tank to me would be a waste of money. Myself I would get a nice small electric start generator and set it up to be remote start and let it fill the tank and it would be a big tank not a little one. Then I would set up a small battry system and solar charger for the cabin to run the lights and small electrical stuff. I would have a propane water heater, stove ect. for the big draw stuff. I would also run power from the generator to the home for special use if needed and to charge up the battrys on those cloudy, snowey ect days or if I had a problem with the solar unit. The cost of the generator would be less and just to fill a big tank it would not be used much and last a long time. Even the float system could be worked into warning you when it needs to run and shut it off when filled. I guess to me pushing a button once or twice a week to fill this tank would not be a big deal. And if I needed tons of water like for a fire it could feed a big pump, pervide endless water that the battry system may not if it was a small one or undercharged. This is just another way to look at your water system in fact if you had enoung head pressure on the pipe feeding the house you may be able to gravity feed the home. Mark

[glenn kangiser]

Thing is how many watts would a good sin-hour be good for?   

I think it's measured in how many calories you burn, Don.

[Willy]

Pumping water is something I do a lot each year on the fires. I pump more water in a week than most would use in a year. Some days I will fill and dump 75,000 gals (plus drive) and on great days only 2,500 gals! My main draft pump is good for around 550 GPM @50 PSI, Water Cannon PTO Pump is good for 750 GPM at 90 PSI and my hose lay & booster hose small pump is good for 150 GPM @ 250 PSI. I can fill my 2,500+gal Tank in 5 mins and empty it in 3 or less depending on how I do it. I also have a 6" Dump valve on the back. So I just push a button and in a few mins it is filled by a gasoline pump.  It would not be a big deal to just push a button to fill my water tank at home. I do have a under ground 6,000 gal tank for fire reasons. I put it under ground so I could keep it filled all year. Real hard for a fire truck to get to my place during the winter. I keep the pump primed with RV Anti Freeze and the hoses dry. It has a 125 GPM @ 80PSI Gasoline pump on it feeding pull out fire hoses and 2-40 GPM Sprinklers up on my roof to protect my building during a fire. I can leave when it gets real bad and the pump will run till the tank is empty.  By that time the fire will have went by my home. It takes about 30 mins to burn 35 of my 40 acres I know it happen once and I timed it while I watch nearby. This is why I fight fires for a living and mention about protecting your own home once in a while. Mark

[glenn kangiser]

Good plan, Mark.  I make fire trails down hill each year, but it could jump over them if going good.

[Bishopknight]

I'd like to revive this thread. I read through it and understand there are lots of options for solar well pumps but honestly, I'm still confused.

I was hoping someone would have a low-cost, light use well pumping solution for a 2 person cabin.

Can anyone recommend a pump that can run off a 100-130 watt panel?

What would I need?