War here, war there.

[NM_Shooter]

Here's a question for you that made me start wondering.... I saw this posted in another thread:

"I have no problem with having the worlds strongest military and maintaining it in great working order here, at home to where no one dare attack us."

Is this feasible to do?  I tend to not think so.  Especially when dealing with terrorist organizations.  How do we keep terrorist supporting nations from lobbing nukes at us once they have them?  Do we wait to be attacked first?  At what point do we say..."OK, we now have our threshold of crispy cities... we are now justified in retaliation."?  My threshold for that is zero. 

When someone tells me that they want to end me and my family, I tend to take that rather seriously.  If they repeatedly say it, and take steps to  build the tools and relationships to accomplish that goal, then they are opening themselves up to preemptive action from me. 

I would expect no less of my neighbors, or my government. 

My primary objection to the current "wars" are that we are trying to be too politically correct.  This costs way more in lives, resources, and cash than I want to see spent.  Unleash the damn dogs, or put them away.  All in or all out. 

I think we should spend a ton of money on "intelligence", followed up by very effective, PC unrestricted and assertive preemptive action.  This can never, ever, ever^googol be done without collateral damage (jeez I hate that term).

Extended military operations on foreign soil is just so much crap. 

[John_C]

we are trying to be too politically correct

We are also asking the military to do a jobs they cannot do.

What the military can do is kill folks and break things.   Making long standing enemies (Shiite's and Sunni's and Kurd's for example) kiss and make up is not something they will often accomplish.

[MountainDon]

Nobody can win a politically correct war.

I don't like to lose.

So you got an idea where I stand on that?   

[John_C]

The Rules of Combat

   1. Bring a weapon. Preferably, bring at least two. Bring all of your friends who have weapons. Bring their friends who have weapons.
   2. Anything worth shooting is worth shooting twice. Ammo is cheap. Life is expensive.
   3. Only hits count. Close doesn't count. The only thing worse than a miss is a slow miss.
   4. If your shooting stance is good, you're probably not moving fast enough, nor using cover correctly.
   5. Move away from your attacker. Distance is your friend. (Lateral and diagonal movement are preferred.)
   6. If you can choose what to bring to a gunfight, bring a big weapon and a friend with a big weapon.
   7. In ten years nobody will remember the details of caliber, stance, or tactics. They will only remember who lived and who didn't.
   8. If you are not shooting, you should be communicating, reloading, and running.
   9. Accuracy is relative: most combat shooting is more dependent on "pucker factor" than the inherent accuracy of the weapon.
  10. Use a weapon that works EVERY TIME. "All skill is in vain when an Angel pisses in the flintlock of your musket."
  11. Someday someone may kill you with your own weapon, but they should have to beat you to death with it because it is empty.
  12. In combat, there are no rules, always cheat; always win. The only unfair fight is the one you lose.
  13. Have a plan.
  14. Have a back-up plan, because the first one won't work.
  15. Use cover or concealment as much as possible. The visible target should be in FRONT of YOUR weapon.
  16. Flank your adversary when possible. Protect yours.
  17. Don't drop your guard.
  18. Always tactical load and threat scan 360 degrees.
  19. Watch their hands. Hands kill. (In God we trust. Everyone else, keep your hands where I can see them).
  20. Decide to be aggressive ENOUGH, quickly ENOUGH.
  21. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.
  22. Be courteous to everyone, friendly to no one.
  23. Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
  24. Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation.
  25. Do not attend a gunfight with a handgun, the caliber of which does not start with a ".4."

[MountainDon]

Number 21 is very relevant today...

21. The faster you finish the fight, the less shot you will get.

Which goes along very well with fighting a PC war.

[glenn kangiser]

So let me get this straight, Frank.

I would expect no less of my neighbors, or my government.

You think that a pre-emptive strike is OK if some country may possibly use nukes or build that would take the lives of citizens? 

Does that include countries that are proven to be enriching to only power grade uranium per our own intelligence reports? hmm

Don't you think that is a little harsh unless they have demonstrated they are serious?   

Maybe they are just talking out their behinds like Dubya.

Also can you give me specifics on how a terrorist supporting nation is defined? hmm

[NM_Shooter]

You think that a pre-emptive strike is OK if some country may possibly use nukes or build that would take the lives of citizens? 

No... "may possibly" doesn't cut it, because that includes everybody on the planet with a nuke, including our allies.  They have to have threatened to destroy us, have the ability or be in pursuit to do so, and be earnestly developing the means to deliver.   

Don't you think that is a little harsh unless they have demonstrated they are serious?   

I think operating 4000 centrifuges in the pursuit of enriched uranium while telling the world they want to end us and our allies are a couple of pretty good hints.  But that's just me... I tend to notice the teeny little things like that.

Also can you give me specifics on how a terrorist supporting nation is defined? hmm

Sure!  Support or harboring of any of the following groups:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_organization

Three questions answered.  Here's one single question for you.....

You have a neighbor that hates you.  He has told you and everyone in the neighborhood that he is going to kill your family as soon as he is able to afford some tools to do so completely.  He's killed before.  He's told you he would hire others to do the work and to snipe at your family and friends.  Heck, he's even taken shots at some of your friends... killing some. 

At what point do you    take him serious? 



ED: made print larger so aging eyes like mine can read more easily - MD

[apaknad]

very good john,

from one who is a combat veteran i concur on all points. when i was in "nam i was issued an m-14 until i had about three months to go and they made me turn it in for an m-16(useless). my m-14 would work 100% of the time(handy in combat. the m-16 would stop working frequently. this was 1967. i now own the civilian equivelent of the m-14(m1-a1). it is a little heavy now(i am 61) but properly sighted i can still hit a bulls eye at 1,000 yd.(not feet) all day long. and that is w/ iron sights. w/scope and spotter to get it on target you would be dead meat at 2,000 yds. now that's a weapon. some of my parts are match grade. i paid $1100.00 about 8 years ago for it and i see them now for $2,000.00 at gun shows that are equiped like mine. i buy bulk military ammo for practice and reloading and specialized expensive ammo at sporting goods store.
another good investment: quality firearms/ammo- price will only go up!
added a leupold scope and i now have a weapon for hunting anything in the country and a good long range defensive weapon.

[MountainDon]

That Wikipedia link has quite the list of terrorist organizations!   
There are also interesting links to terrorist event history.





apaknad;  nice gun, that M1A1

[apaknad]

m.d,

i also had a .450 marlin guide gun that i loved, you have a 45-70? serious knock down power on both. i will get another .450

[glenn kangiser]

I will unfortunately I have to wait until tonight to get on this as I have to go to work, but I assume we are really talking about Iran and I was wondering where these statements have been made -- twisted translations taken out of context from the mainstream government controlled media or what was actually said?

Could it be that they are looking at it the same as you and they are only trying to protect their families, as we have already taken over and occupied 2 of their small neighbors, Iraq and Afghanistan,  under false pretenses based on lies and we are wiping out the Iraqi and Afghan population with Depleted Uranium?

Our gift to the Afghans and our own military.  Yes -- our military boys are coming home with this too from the DU -- in fact the can even pass it on to their wives.

Yes - here is a gift from our war machine to the Afghans, Iraqis, and our sons and daughters.  A cute little Depleted Uranium baby. 

What if this was your own child?  Would you be upset at the country responsible our would you just go on and raise your son or daughter with the pride of a proud parent, if it lived?

Would you then fight to free your country of the occupiers?  Would they not then be your enemy"?  If you were a neighboring country with oil would you not want to protect yourself?  Seems that is what you said above.

You have a neighbor that hates you.  He has told you and everyone in the neighborhood that he is going to kill your family as soon as he is able to afford some tools to do so completely.  He's killed before.  He's told you he would hire others to do the work and to snipe at your family and friends.  Heck, he's even taken shots at some of your friends... killing some.

At what point do you   no idea take him serious?

We have already demonstrated we will wantonly kill them without remorse.

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=bush+where+are+those+weapons+of+mass+destruction&hl=en&emb=0&aq=f#

We are not a terrorist organization when we do this to whole civilizations?



Is it a wonder they hate us?

Or do your parameters not apply to us because we are the great superior race, the Amerikkkans?

"You have a neighbor that hates you.  He has told you and everyone in the neighborhood that he is going to kill your family as soon as he is able to afford some tools to do so completely.  He's killed before.  He's told you he would hire others to do the work and to snipe at your family and friends.  Heck, he's even taken shots at some of your friends... killing some."

I will give you a better reply tonight.

[glenn kangiser]

Note -- sorry I couldn't read the rest of the replies - I'm late.

[ScottA]

With the total lack of truth in the world how does one decide who is and is not a threat? Does it even matter what we think? The masters make up their minds that some country is evil for what ever reason and we are told they are evil regardless of what the truth may be. This world has always had walls, forts, castles for the purpose of keeping the other guys from taking what you've got. If someone hates/fears the US because they think we are trying to take what they've got do they have a right to build walls? That's all nukes are really, walls. They are of little use in regular warfare.

[NM_Shooter]

C'mon Glenn, don't snipe and run.  Answer the question.  Iran is an example, but not an exclusive one. 

Very simple question.  Very simple words.  Given the above condition, when would you take him as serious? 

(Scott... another minor detail, but walls can't be strapped to the top of a ballistic missile and aimed at your house.  Well, maybe they could, but the damage inflicted would be within a relatively small radius).

[MountainDon]

Bringing DU, birth defects, unintended and serious consequences all, sidesteps the question originally asked...  Those may be reasons for avoiding use of certain weapon types, not reasons for sitting back and letting acknowledged belligerents take potshots at you or your allies.

[Sassy]

Since we're talking "war here, war there" I think this article has some important points... hopefully, some will read it...  and do go to the link on Gen. Smedley Butler & read what he had to say (I can't remember where the link was posted - I've been out of the loop quite a bit lately, working extra due to the economy  )
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/04/24/708/

I've discussed this at length with my co-workers - one of the docs (WASP) I worked with this past weekend was in "special forces" during the Vietnam war.  He is very conservative but has been against the Iraq & Afganistan war from the beginning.  I talked with some East Indian docs, also...  they were saying they "came to America for the freedom & opportunity but they might as well be back in India what with our corrupt administration & corporate leaders"  they really don't know what to do.  Until the past few months they would defend the USA, saying that it was "more honest" than any other country, but they don't think that anymore.  So tell me again what we are defending?  Many of the veterans coming back from 1,2,3 tours in Iraq think we need to get out, but due to all the destruction of the countries, we can't just leave until we fix things, but the people don't trust us anymore & are fighting against the US.  If it is freedom, we sure are going about it like we've lost our marbles... 

And how do we think that we will make a "theocracy" into a "democracy"?  Our own country is no longer a "democracy" let alone a "republic"...  good examples we are... 

The article above that I've linked to above, outlines a step-by-step descent into fascism & a police state...  see if it doesn't look familiar...  And I am definitely NOT a "bleeding heart liberal"!  I'd appreciate your comments...

BTW, what country has used nuclear weapons on another country?     not to mention DU...

[muldoon]

lots of differing opinions here, so I'll toss mine into the pile as well and let them fall where they may.

"You have a neighbor that hates you.  He has told you and everyone in the neighborhood that he is going to kill your family as soon as he is able to afford some tools to do so completely.  He's killed before.  He's told you he would hire others to do the work and to snipe at your family and friends.  Heck, he's even taken shots at some of your friends... killing some.  At what point do you   no idea take him serious?  "

Yes, people should be taking the United states very serious here.  We do not have a good track record for being a good international citizen.  We have threatened many and now that weakness is showing expect some of that to come back to us.  For what it is worth, if called upon I will take up arms against Iran or anyone else if needed to defend this nation if under attack.  However, I will not volunteer for it today. 

War is distraction.  War is a mechanism to swell patriotism, and get people to ignore larger failings of the leadership.  It has occurred for centuries and wont be stopping any time soon.  I believe that for most, people need a black and white, good guy/bad guy enemy to focus on. 

"Patriotism is when love of your own people comes first; nationalism, when hate for people other than your own comes first."  Charles de Gaulle, President of France; recalled on leaving the presidency, Life 9 May 69

"The things that will destroy America are prosperity-at-any-price, peace-at-any- price, safety-first instead of duty-first, the love of soft living, and the get-rich-quick theory of life."  Theodore Roosevelt (1858-1919), U.S. Republican (later Progressive) politician, president. letter (Jan. 10, 1917).

"The art of leadership ... consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention.... The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category."
Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 3 (1925).

"The broad masses of a population are more amenable to the appeal of rhetoric than to any other force."
Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 3 (1925).

"The great mass of people ... will more easily fall victim to a big lie than to a small one."
Adolf Hitler (1889–1945), German dictator. Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 10 (1925).

"An evil exists that threatens every man, woman and child of this great nation. We must take steps to ensure our domestic security and protect our homeland."  Adoph Hitler, 1939

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."
George W. Bush, 2004.

"I don't give a goddamn. I'm the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way. Stop throwing the Constitution in my face. It's just a goddamned piece of paper."
George W. Bush, 2005.

[Sassy]

Chilling quotes, Muldoon, but I think that is basically the real story...  besides, even the Bible says there will "always be wars & rumors of wars"...  as long as there is greed, the "me 1st" attitude, instead of Jesus' command to "love your neighbor as yourself" - he also said "not to worry about tomorrow, as the evil today is sufficient" - that doesn't mean we aren't to be "wise as serpents, gentle as doves"... did Jesus take up arms against those who took him prisoner?  From what I read, he rebuked Peter for using his sword to cut off one of the guard's ears & he even went so far as to heal the guard...  I believe in protecting our nation, protecting my home & loved ones if attacked...

But I think a lot of people either haven't read or don't remember what Paul Bremer did to the Iraqi people... check out this link  http://www.democracynow.org/2007/9/12/billions_over_baghdad_how_did_9b
Billions Over Baghdad: How Did $9B in Cash Airlifted From the Fed to Iraq Go Missing?
One month after the invasion of Iraq, the United States began airlifting planeloads of cash to Baghdad. Between April 2003 and June 2004, a total of $12 billion dollars of US currency was shipped to Iraq where it was to be dispensed by the Coalition Provisional Authority for reconstruction. To date, at least $9 billion dollars cannot be accounted for. In a startling new expose in Vanity Fair, Pulitzer Prize winning investigative journalists Donald Barlett and James Steele follow the money trail from the Federal Reserve to Iraq. [includes rush transcript]

http://www.americanfreepress.net/html/bush-cheney_oil.html
THE BUSH-CHENEY OIL WAR
Administration Plans to Steal Iraqi Oil For Mega-Rich Revealed for First Time
By Richard Walker
Iraqi oil workers are waking up to the fact that a proposed hydrocarbon law the Bush administration wants the Iraqi Parliament to pass will effectively place the country�s massive oil reserves in the hands of big U.S. and British oil giants for decades.

Many Iraqis are only realizing now what experts have been saying since 2003: that the invasion of Iraq was about oil and Israel, and not about America�s security.

SECRET U.S. PLANS FOR IRAQ'S OIL
BBC Newsnight | March 17, 2005
By Greg Palast
Why was Paul Wolfowitz pushed out of the Pentagon onto the World Bank?  The answer lies in a 323-page document, secret until now, indicating that the allies of Big Oil in the Bush Administration have defeated neo-conservatives and their chief Wolfowitz.  Tonight BBC Television Newsnight will tell the true story of the fall of the neo-cons.  An investigation conducted by BBC with Harper's magazine will also reveal that the US State Department made detailed plans for war in Iraq -- and for Iraq's oil -- within weeks of Bush's first inauguration in 2001.

The Bush administration made plans for war and for Iraq's oil before the 9/11 attacks sparking a policy battle between neo-cons and Big Oil, BBC's Newsnight has revealed.

Two years ago today - when President George Bush announced US, British and Allied forces would begin to bomb Baghdad - protestors claimed the US had a secret plan for Iraq's oil once Saddam had been conquered.

In fact there were two conflicting plans, setting off a hidden policy war between neo-conservatives at the Pentagon, on one side, versus a combination of "Big Oil" executives and US State Department "pragmatists."

"Big Oil" appears to have won. The latest plan, obtained by Newsnight from the US State Department was, we learned, drafted with the help of American oil industry consultants. http://www.infowars.com/articles/iraq/secret_us_plans_for_iraq_oil.htm

So, tell me again, why did we go into Iraq & Afganistan?   

[Sassy]

A song by Bob Dylan comes to mind You Gotta Serve Somebody

by Bob Dylan You may be an ambassador to England or France, You may be the heavyweight champion of the world, You may like to gamble, you might like to dance, You may be a socialite with a long string of pearls But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed You're gonna have to serve somebody, Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord But you're gonna have to serve somebody. You might be a rock 'n' roll addict prancing on the stage, You might have drugs at your command, women in a cage, You may be a business man or some high degree thief, They may call you Doctor or they may call you Chief You're gonna have to serve somebody, But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord But you're gonna have to serve somebody. You may be a state trooper, you might be a young Turk, You may be the head of some big TV network, You may be rich or poor, you may be blind or lame, You may be living in another country under another name But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord You're gonna have to serve somebody, But you're gonna have to serve somebody. You may be a construction worker working on a home, You may be living in a mansion or you might live in a dome, You might be somebody's landlord, you might even own banks You might own guns and you might even own tanks, But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed You're gonna have to serve somebody, Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord But you're gonna have to serve somebody. You may be a preacher with your spiritual pride, You may be a city councilman taking bribes on the side, You may be workin' in a barbershop, you may know how to cut hair, You may be somebody's mistress, may be somebody's heir But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed You're gonna have to serve somebody, Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord But you're gonna have to serve somebody. Might like to wear cotton, might like to wear silk, Might like to drink whiskey, might like to drink milk, You might like to eat caviar, you might like to eat bread, But you're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed You may be sleeping on the floor, sleeping in a king-sized bed You're gonna have to serve somebody, Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord But you're gonna have to serve somebody. You may call me Terry, you may call me Timmy, You may call me Bobby, you may call me Zimmy, You may call me R.J., you may call me Ray, You may call me anything but no matter what you say You're gonna have to serve somebody. You're gonna have to serve somebody, yes indeed Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord But you're gonna have to serve somebody.

Do a little research on the Fabian Society or Lucius Trust & the people behind the movements...  check out Margaret Sanger & population control, check out Skull & Bones - George W Bush & his daddy have never renounced their allegiance to Skull & Bones - just which "Lord" do they serve?  Do some research on the Bilderbergers, The Trilateral Commission, The Council on Foreign Relations, the UN Agenda 21...  I could go on & on...  conspiracy you say?  check out their beginnings...  check out David Rockefeller... 

[MountainDon]

.... BTW, what country has used nuclear weapons on another country?  ....

What's this supposed to mean?

Let's see, WWII... We had Germany, under Adolf Hitler working on a bomb. We had the Soviet Union, under Joe Stalin. We had Japan, theoretically under Emperor Hirohito, but really under total military control with a mindset of 'no surrender'. As well we had the USA working on a atomic bomb.

Who would you rather have use it first? (assuming that once the ball got rolling somebody was going to. I have little doubt that the other three would have had they been first.)

[ScottA]

(Scott... another minor detail, but walls can't be strapped to the top of a ballistic missile and aimed at your house.  Well, maybe they could, but the damage inflicted would be within a relatively small radius).

Lets get real here. Any nuke fired by any country at any other country with a nuke is the same as shooting yourself because you can be assured the other side will return the favor. So if Iran or anyone else shoots one nuke at us they would be commiting suicide. Having a nuke or trying to make one is hardly a good reason to invade another country.

[Sassy]

So while our attention is on the merits of "just wars" we are being blindsided by Paulson & Co., the head of the US Treasury, former Goldman Sachs CEO, we have the preplanned war against the US citizen by the preplanned "bailout" which says in clause

8. Review:  Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.

The bailout plan starts with
(a) Authority to Purchase.--The Secretary is authorized to purchase, and to make and fund commitments to purchase, on such terms and conditions as determined by the Secretary, mortgage-related assets from any financial institution having its headquarters in the United States.

(b) Necessary Actions.--The Secretary is authorized to take such actions as the Secretary deems necessary to carry out the authorities in this Act, including, without limitation:

(1) appointing such employees as may be required to carry out the authorities in this Act and defining their duties;

(2) entering into contracts, including contracts for services authorized by section 3109 of title 5, United States Code, without regard to any other provision of law regarding public contracts;

(3) designating financial institutions as financial agents of the Government, and they shall perform all such reasonable duties related to this Act as financial agents of the Government as may be required of them;

(4) establishing vehicles that are authorized, subject to supervision by the Secretary, to purchase mortgage-related assets and issue obligations; and

(5) issuing such regulations and other guidance as may be necessary or appropriate to define terms or carry out the authorities of this Act.    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/business/21draftcnd.html

So not only do they get our young men & women to go to war to kill & be killed, they wage an economic war to bring us to the "New World Order" that Daddy Bush was so fond of speaking about...  we can't even review what they are planning!!!  So, it is a win-win situation - the internationalists make money on the wars & help with de-population & they control the money - it all equals POWER a game of chess & we are the pawns who don't want to see the big picture for the squabbling... keep the "common man fearful & confused...  Bernaise, the father of our current advertising disinformation taught us well... what will you say to our "leaders ie handlers" when they decide they need your property to help pay back Goldman Sachs since they are demanding premium prices, not market...  I can't begin to understand it all because I don't think the way "they" do, but I want to have my eyes open & state the obvious.  After reading about Enron, Drexel Burnham, the Federal Reserve...  seeing the draconian laws that have been put in place "for our own good, for our security & prosperity" the myriad questions that still have not been answered about 9/11 that has led to so much of what is happening today...      if we don't speak up, stand up & fight what is going on in our own country, none of it will matter...  except that we will be the new serfs in a feudal system...

check out all the different agencies, foundations etc that came about in 1913 when the Federal Reserve was created....

[Sassy]

(Scott... another minor detail, but walls can't be strapped to the top of a ballistic missile and aimed at your house.  Well, maybe they could, but the damage inflicted would be within a relatively small radius).

Lets get real here. Any nuke fired by any country at any other country with a nuke is the same as shooting yourself because you can be assured the other side will return the favor. So if Iran or anyone else shoots one nuke at us they would be commiting suicide. Having a nuke or trying to make one is hardly a good reason to invade another country.

Amen to that Scott!

Remember "order out of chaos"  & "problem, solution, resolution" 

[Sassy]

C'mon Glenn, don't snipe and run.  Answer the question.  Iran is an example, but not an exclusive one. 

Very simple question.  Very simple words.  Given the above condition, when would you take him as serious? 

(Scott... another minor detail, but walls can't be strapped to the top of a ballistic missile and aimed at your house.  Well, maybe they could, but the damage inflicted would be within a relatively small radius).

Hey, you guys, wasn't anyone even slightly outraged of the mockery conducted by the "president" concerning WMD's when maybe you or someone you know have lost a loved one due to the fact we went to war to find those WMD's?  I take care of these men & women who went over there in good faith...  I see the devastation in their lives, families & psychologically...  When I find the link, I'll also post the news interview when someone asked about Osama bin Laden & what he had to do with 9/11 - Bush stated "nothing" doesn't that appall anyone?  He's also not on the "most wanted" list...  I stand in amazement at the lack of outrage...

[NM_Shooter]

.... BTW, what country has used nuclear weapons on another country?  ....

What's this supposed to mean?

Let's see, WWII... We had Germany, under Adolf Hitler working on a bomb. We had the Soviet Union, under Joe Stalin. We had Japan, theoretically under Emperor Hirohito, but really under total military control with a mindset of 'no surrender'. As well we had the USA working on a atomic bomb.

Who would you rather have use it first? (assuming that once the ball got rolling somebody was going to. I have little doubt that the other three would have had they been first.)

Don't forget that Japan had already constructed a submarine aircraft carrier that was ready to deploy a nuke somewhere in California.  We beat them to it.  If we hadn't done it, we would have gotten nuked ourselves.  (Don.. have you been to the nuke museum in Los Alamos?  It is really well done).