We initiated a second plan as well.  I left the Housewarmer propane wall heater on and set to its lowest setting. The control just states "low" and "high" so I don't know what that really means. I left it with 60 lbs of propane hooked up. At most it will be a $30 experiment (cost paid in summer). We've wondered how much propane it would take to keep the temperature at some minimal level. Now we'll find out. We will return in two weeks time, check the tanks and check the minimum temps recorded in the cabin and the fridge and freezer, as well as the exterior temps. .

Don I have heard before that propane will sort of gel in extreme cold.  Had also heard that this is more prevelant with a less than 50% capacity.  Not sure if your problem might be related.  I do know that they use an additive in larger capacity tanks that is suppose to aid.   

Thanks John. The issue I know of relates to the ability of propane to be able to supply sufficient vapor volume to operate the appliance. I don't think that is the issue, but still might be.  

When we arrived we had the space heater going, was baking bread, making tea and soup and operating the water heater all at the same time. The range, space heater and oven burner had nice blue flames. The water heater did show some yellow that the others did not.  Hence maybe the orifice may be to blame.  

A device like a large capacity propane construction space heater can run into problems at cold temps on a 20# tank; but a 100# tank solves the issue.

At -44 F propane will not flow. Coldest it got up there was -5 F and this weekend it only got down to +19 F

So what did we do with our time?

We burned more slash and ground debris. What else?!





We still have some more to do, maybe next time we will finish off most of the piles.

We also tramped around the property a bit. The snow from December is gone in many places! And it's only the end of January. We need more snow!!





The cut wood will be somebody's firewood come spring/summer. The December snowfall blocked the roads and pout a stop to it being hauled away.

The reason that I mentioned was that I onced lived nearby here and the temps dropped to -25 for 2-3 days.  Had a gas fired furnace and it failed to run. The tank capacity was about 20% but with a heavy snow the propane supplier could not refill. Propane dealer contributed the failure to gel and low capacity.  Woke up to 30F in the garage apartment.  Moved out on Sunday and not back in until 9 frozen pipes were repaired.  Oh Yeah that was the same year that a 36" dia White Pine fell dead center from front to back on my wifes 1 year old Pontiac.  

hi Don,  i just left a post on my page asking about pellet stoves, but i have also considered putting a small gas heater such as yours in my basement.   i am currently heating with a jotul gas stove on the first floor which does a great job for both the first and second floors ( small house)  but the floor is cold, and i plan on using the basement in the winter..   the foundation size is 20 by 26 , and it is a walk out basement.  we were there this weekend, and it was really cold ( - 2 ) , but, without any heat the basement did not dip below freezing.  do you think that the 18,000 btu heater would do the job?   i like the idea of a pellet stove because i would like to use a combination of fuels, but, most of the stoves that i have seen are really too big for the space.  I would appreciate your thoughts..   thanks!

    Hmmmm....    My reply will appear over there

Back to the issue of the propane fueled water heater flaming out.

I believe the problem is not one of the heater itself. The problem was likely the cold weather, it dropped to -5 degrees F at one point and was below zero for a large part of one 24 hour period. The cold weather coupled with a partially full small propane cylinder will result in less available propane for the burner. It may have "blown" itself out. That at least is my latest theory after doing some research.

Check out this link for what I've learned...  Propane Info

Quote from: MountainDon on January 29, 2011, 02:04:17 PM
Back to the issue of the propane fueled water heater flaming out.

I believe the problem is not one of the heater itself. The problem was likely the cold weather, it dropped to -5 degrees F at one point and was below zero for a large part of one 24 hour period. The cold weather coupled with a partially full small propane cylinder will result in less available propane for the burner. It may have "blown" itself out. That at least is my latest theory after doing some research.

Check out this link for what I've learned...  Propane Info

Hmmm this is a bit concerting.  With our cabin seeing temps in the -30's in cold parts of the winter it could be an issue.

Especially with the planned on demand water heater.  Maybe just no hot water when it's cold? 

Hey Don, you mentioned before that you bought a small 20" stove I beleive?  How do you like it?  I saw one at Lowes but the reviews weren't very good.

Thoughts?
Thanks
Erik

We cook on it all the time, bake bread in the oven. Everything works.

That said, the burner controls for the surface burners are not as linear as a more expensive range. That would be my only real complaint. You can adjust down to a tiny flame, but there is a range of knob movement that does not do much. I believe the 24 inch version of the same model is no different in that. I'm used to a wider range (30") so the top seems crowded at times, but the space saving in a small cabin is also important to us. So all in all I'm happy.

The stove top pilot lights are easy enough to light as the top hinges up. For off grid use I prefer a pilot light to the electronic ignition. The pilots give off a fair amount of heat though and in the middle of summer that's unwanted. So I'm glad I installed a shut off for each gas appliance. I moved the one for the range up to behind and just above the rear of the range. That way it is easy to shut off the gas and have the pilots off, and easy to turn back on and relight with a butane lighter stick. The oven pilot is not lit unless we want to use the oven; that requires laying down on the floor.

Quote from: MountainDon on January 31, 2011, 09:30:33 PM
We cook on it all the time, bake bread in the oven. Everything works.

That said, the burner controls for the surface burners are not as linear as a more expensive range. That would be my only real complaint. You can adjust down to a tiny flame, but there is a range of knob movement that does not do much. I believe the 24 inch version of the same model is no different in that. I'm used to a wider range (30") so the top seems crowded at times, but the space saving in a small cabin is also important to us. So all in all I'm happy.

The stove top pilot lights are easy enough to light as the top hinges up. For off grid use I prefer a pilot light to the electronic ignition. The pilots give off a fair amount of heat though and in the middle of summer that's unwanted. So I'm glad I installed a shut off for each gas appliance. I moved the one for the range up to behind and just above the rear of the range. That way it is easy to shut off the gas and have the pilots off, and easy to turn back on and relight with a butane lighter stick. The oven pilot is not lit unless we want to use the oven; that requires laying down on the floor.

Didn't know there was a 24" -- might be better then a 20 or a 30 (since as you say, small cabins).  I can live with controls that aren't perfect Heck, I'm living with a cabin that isn't perfect! hahahaha ok, it's a matter of perspective and no one but the builder knows anyway right? 

Interesting on the pilots -- I'll have to get more details when I get closer.  Right now we use a camper stove and it works 'ok' but is definitely crowded - and we have to turn off the propane when it is not in use -- hey I'm wondering if that camper stove has a pilot and that is why I always smell propane when it's left on but the stove isn't in use!  I need to check that!  All this time I thought it was a leak!!!!  Stove came out of a 1978 camper and it never occurred to me that it might have a pilot....

We spent Saturday through this morning on Pine ridge. It was disappointing to discover that after our big storm last week it looks like we had more new snow home on the desert mesa than up at the cabin.    I could still see our snow shoe tracks from 2 weeks ago in many places. Mostly it was the wind that covered them.

Outside temp dropped to -15 F, colder than we'd seen ever before up there.  

The propane wall heater experiment was inconclusive. The control is marked low and high, no degrees. I left it on low. Low may be 25 degrees. Or maybe the heater never came on much because of the cold weather performance of propane in the 40# cylinders.  We left with the control set a little higher.

The canned food we stored in the freezer never froze. Ice had formed in the water jug in there, but is was only partly slushy. Soup, beans, spaghetti sauce all survived, even the glass jars. We left the jug full of hot water again.

Dang cold and windy Saturday afternoon and very windy Sunday. We did manage to burn 2  1/2 more slash piles on the downhill downwind side of the hill though. The half pile because one was too small and have too green slash on top. That makes 27 piles this winter; 4 x 5 x 3 feet to 6 x 8 x 5 feet.

Read a book, baked bread, ate pancakes with real maple syrup, freeze dried scrambled eggs and freeze dried green peas, canned ham, scalloped potatoes out of a box,     watched Superbowl LVX and our team won!! It doesn't get much better than that!

Sounds like you had a great time Don!

"Oh Yeah that was the same year that a 36" dia White Pine fell dead center from front to back on my wifes 1 year old Pontiac."

With nobody in it, I hope.

Freeze dried green beans and freeze dried scrambled eggs?

I bicycled across America twice, once by myself on my 10 speed in 1984 (4,200 miles) and then again 2 years later on a two-seater with my wife on the back (4,800 miles). It was during that first trip that I experienced freeze dried scrambled eggs...they didn't turn out that good. BUT, months ago, I was in a super Walmart store and noticed a bag of freeze dried ice cream sandwich - I bought it just to see how it would taste. I was surprised - it was good!

By the way, read all about our bicycle trip here: http://www.usforhim.com

Quote from: ajbremer on February 15, 2011, 05:04:44 AM
Freeze dried green beans and freeze dried scrambled eggs?

We didn't eat them together. Very good with pancakes.  The Mountain House are pretty good. The plain ones are best, the bacon is way too crumbled and ends up in the bottom like sand. But plain are good. The veggies, peas, beans and corn are good. Most everything else keeps you alive and is better than having to carry heavy food.

Mountain Don, I ran across your post and have enjoyed all the info.  I have not started to build anything yet as we are currently using our camper, but I have some ideas and like your work.  I have 5 acres North of Highway 126 off FR103.  Where about are you located?

South of the Valle Caldera off FR10 and and some zig zags on a couple minor roads

Don, I've spent the last few days reading about your build from start to finish. I really like what you have done and you have given me more than a few ideas for when I begin construction on my own place. One thing that I have been wondering and maybe you have written somewhere and I missed it, but how far is your property from your home? I'm very jealous of the amount of time you are able to spend at your property; I wish I could get to mine that often. I'm lucky if I make once every couple of months and it's only a few hundred miles from my home. Keep up the good work.

Thank you.


On the roads, 66 miles one way, with a 3300 foot elevation gain, 36 miles straight line. Time wise it's 1.75 to 2 hours, much of it limited to legal speeds of 40 - 45 mph and slower through a couple villages on twisty two lane highway. We are kind of lucky.

Holy Cow! I agree your build thread is really great!
Me too!  Jealous would be the woRD!    we're 9 hours away.....from our prospective build spot.

Was looking for your thread on keeping food from freezing and got lost so came back here....anyway, have you considered heat trace?  Usually the wattage is very low and while the heat trace doesn't put out much heat I'm wondering if in a well insulated space it might work?

I found a kit at a local builders shop that I used to make the heat trace for our sewage pipe (not strictly what it is supposed to be used for) and with it running on the solar power I don't even see a draw.  I think I calculated 5 watts if I remembered correctly but it keeps fluids from freezing in sub zero weather.

Thoughts?

web link?