Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)

[OlJarhead]

I wouldn't run any water lines less than 4 feet and would recommend deeper if possible unless you are down in the valley.  Where I am at it is not uncommon for lines buried 2-3 feet to freeze up in the winter if there is no snow cover.  In my case we ran all lines 4' down with a few exceptions (areas we couldn't get lower than 3' (maybe a little deeper) and I didn't have an issue last winter when it dropped to -20F.

Trucking in water can be a bear if the roads are bad but others do it also.  Just remember that for one person to fill up 250 gallons it would take a LONG time without a large tank on the back of a truck -- and if the weather is well below freezing it will be tough to fill said tank much less empty it.

A shower can take 5-10 gallons depending on how frugal you are (a shower head that shuts off can lower that to 3-4 if you take a 'Navy Shower') to figure that in if she works.  If she doesn't and plans to shut in most of the winter then showers can be less frequent thereby saving water.  However, living with a wood stove in a drier climate means keeping a large pot of water on the stove to put some humidity back into the cabin - at least 2 gallons a day (figure 3+ to be safe).  That same water can be used for washing dishes etc (hair) to save propane.

Make sure the grey water drain system is deep enough (put the main pipe feeding it down 3' or more if possible) and put a stock heater into the tank in case you have to thaw it out (mine works well for that).

The composting toilet must remain 50F or better to work properly and their site (Sunmar) has all the information you'd need on one.  If she is squeamish she might not like emptying it but otherwise it's no issue really.  Ours has treated us well but buy a pallet of chips for it to be sure and insulate the 4" vent to protect the 12v fan inside of it (from freezing up).

Septic is better if you are living there full time and can afford it.

Back up propane heaters are good for various reasons like:  when you are sick and don't have the energy to fire the wood stove up, when you first arrive after a time away and need to reheat the cabin, when you are gone for long periods to keep it above freezing.

Make sure the wood shed is close by and there is a place to put wood under cover right outside the door for those 20 below nights when it's dark and you just need a load of wood.

Consider solar porch lights / security lights

over estimate solar power needs -- then add 10%

I'll add more as I get time.
Erik

[Gary O]

Y'know what's really cool?
Getting on the OJ thread after several months.
Pure inspiration.
cheers

[nailit69]

I wouldn't run any water lines less than 4 feet and would recommend deeper if possible unless you are down in the valley.  Where I am at it is not uncommon for lines buried 2-3 feet to freeze up in the winter if there is no snow cover.  In my case we ran all lines 4' down with a few exceptions (areas we couldn't get lower than 3' (maybe a little deeper) and I didn't have an issue last winter when it dropped to -20F.

She's about 2500'.  Won't have any water lines buried until there's a legit well and we should have a piece of equipment when we do to at least install the line deep enough... 3-4' was my thought too.  Do you think that in a basement the lines will be likely to freeze if there's a heat source keeping things at 50-60F?

Trucking in water can be a bear if the roads are bad but others do it also.  Just remember that for one person to fill up 250 gallons it would take a LONG time without a large tank on the back of a truck -- and if the weather is well below freezing it will be tough to fill said tank much less empty it.

She'll have a 125 gal. transport tank in the truck to fill from.  She's used to a semi off grid lifestyle so collecting and conserving water is nothing new to her and she works from home so daily needs should be fairly low.  I figure she'll use 3-5 gallons a day for personal and dish use and will most likely pack in bottled water for drinking and cooking with... 250 gallons could potentially last for 90 days or more... maybe one more tank is in order

A shower can take 5-10 gallons depending on how frugal you are (a shower head that shuts off can lower that to 3-4 if you take a 'Navy Shower') to figure that in if she works.  If she doesn't and plans to shut in most of the winter then showers can be less frequent thereby saving water.  However, living with a wood stove in a drier climate means keeping a large pot of water on the stove to put some humidity back into the cabin - at least 2 gallons a day (figure 3+ to be safe).  That same water can be used for washing dishes etc (hair) to save propane.

Showers will be her call... she knows what a "spit bath" is.  A kettle on the woodstove is a must, you could use the water to clean with if it doesn't all boil away first... what about using snow for boiling/humidity?

Make sure the grey water drain system is deep enough (put the main pipe feeding it down 3' or more if possible) and put a stock heater into the tank in case you have to thaw it out (mine works well for that).

3' was going to be my minimum burial depth.  I'll be sure to put a stock heater in... never heard of one but makes perfect sense

The composting toilet must remain 50F or better to work properly and their site (Sunmar) has all the information you'd need on one.  If she is squeamish she might not like emptying it but otherwise it's no issue really.  Ours has treated us well but buy a pallet of chips for it to be sure and insulate the 4" vent to protect the 12v fan inside of it (from freezing up).

Septic is better if you are living there full time and can afford it. 

She'll have to tuff it out with the composter.  We can afford a septic as well as install it... i've done a few in my day, but I'd like to get a certificate of occupancy to possibly/potentially re-sell at some point so we'll probably wait on a septic system until then.

Back up propane heaters are good for various reasons like:  when you are sick and don't have the energy to fire the wood stove up, when you first arrive after a time away and need to reheat the cabin, when you are gone for long periods to keep it above freezing.

Backup heat we do have... small wall mounted unit w standing pilot and T-stat.  How much propane do you suppose it would take to maintain a 50F temperature over a long winter assuming nobody was there?  .

Make sure the wood shed is close by and there is a place to put wood under cover right outside the door for those 20 below nights when it's dark and you just need a load of wood.

Plenty of firewood stored nearby is a must... I/we live in a pretty small place now (600+ sq.ft.) and burn so we know and love firewood well.

Consider solar porch lights / security lights

Planning on security lights at each corner... probably on a remote start genny to up the commotion level in the event of an intruder... battery/solar for everything else.  She is well armed and knows her way around iron.

over estimate solar power needs -- then add 10%

0 experience with solar so i'm learning what I can.  I want to be able to have a system capable of running more than a few lights as well as charging electronics and running a TV now and again.

I'll add more as I get time.
Erik


Thanks for your input... looking forward to more

[OlJarhead]

Occupancy permits in OK county require building to code with a permit.  The use of a composting toilet was not permitted without a full sized septic tank (ostensibly for grey water) with capacity for a 1500 square foot home.  So, to do a temp occupancy permit you must pull permits to build, have no running water (unless septic is installed) etc.  You can msg me for better details.

Keeping the basement 50-60 in the winter should be no problem with a wood stove above and if you can do that then there is no worry  I have mine set up so it isn't too hard to drain but I need to improve on that a little.  Basically if you can keep it drained then no worries.  Have heat tape on hand to thaw it if you don't get it completely drained when you return.

Melting snow takes countless hours and scoopfuls.  A 5 gallon bucket might yield half a gallon (not sure what it is exactly but it's not much) so after messing with that a while you'll give up unless desperate.

Would take a lot of propane to keep a cabin warm on propane alone with no one there over the entire winter but why do that?  Only time I left the heat on while living there in the winter was when I wouldn't be gone more than a couple weeks.  Then an 18000btu heater kept the place 50+ (and prevented freezing) and used about 25 gallons a week if memory serves (I'd have to go back and look).

I'd not want my genny to run if there was an intruder, but that's just me   This ol jarhead prefers the quiet when dealing with 2 legged types...noise is good for the 4 legged ones though.

My solar setup does the trick for the most part and with the auto start genny, 500 gallon propane tank (really 400 gallon since you can only fill 80%) it handles the load I put on it 'ok' in the winter (genny runs daily when it's cloudy all the time).

For me, with fridge, tv, modem, laptop, cordless phone, led and cfl lights DVR etc I would be fine with 1000AH @ 24vdc and about 1000watts of solar charging power.  I'd still need the genny in the winter but experience has taught me that I am not too far off now with 660AH (GCB's so probably less really) and 615watts of solar.

[nailit69]

Occupancy permits in OK county require building to code with a permit.  The use of a composting toilet was not permitted without a full sized septic tank (ostensibly for grey water) with capacity for a 1500 square foot home.  So, to do a temp occupancy permit you must pull permits to build, have no running water (unless septic is installed) etc.  You can msg me for better details.

Not going there... i'll just do what I want... here we go with the typical permitting BS... LOL.  It'll be built to code... that's just how I do things, but i'm probably not getting a permit.  My Granfather always said "It was easier to ask for forgiveness than it was to ask for permission"

Keeping the basement 50-60 in the winter should be no problem with a wood stove above and if you can do that then there is no worry  I have mine set up so it isn't too hard to drain but I need to improve on that a little.  Basically if you can keep it drained then no worries.  Have heat tape on hand to thaw it if you don't get it completely drained when you return.

I think it'll be fine too.  I've done a lot of plumbing and can get almost every last drop of water out of my systems... P-traps w/drain plugs, low point drains, etc... a little heat tape cant hurt either.

Melting snow takes countless hours and scoopfuls.  A 5 gallon bucket might yield half a gallon (not sure what it is exactly but it's not much) so after messing with that a while you'll give up unless desperate.

She may have quite a bit of time on her hands over the winter to collect and melt snow... or just put a 5gal. pot full on the stove... haha

Would take a lot of propane to keep a cabin warm on propane alone with no one there over the entire winter but why do that?  Only time I left the heat on while living there in the winter was when I wouldn't be gone more than a couple weeks.  Then an 18000btu heater kept the place 50+ (and prevented freezing) and used about 25 gallons a week if memory serves (I'd have to go back and look).

Probably wouldn't be for more than a few days or more... just don't want to come back to havoc... been there, done that.

I'd not want my genny to run if there was an intruder, but that's just me   This ol jarhead prefers the quiet when dealing with 2 legged types...noise is good for the 4 legged ones though.

I was speaking of 4 legged intruders... the 2 legged ones get the dogs, the night vision, the rifle, and absolute silence.  There's a couple of year round neighbors up there that seem very nice and I don't expect many 2 legged types up there.  But hey, i was a military raised boy scout (we did the coolest shit) and my old man taught jungle survival in the military so I generally go very prepared and/or ready to improvise if necessary.  We kind of live out in the boonies now so this is nothing new for us but want to get a little farther away from the city.

My solar setup does the trick for the most part and with the auto start genny, 500 gallon propane tank (really 400 gallon since you can only fill 80%) it handles the load I put on it 'ok' in the winter (genny runs daily when it's cloudy all the time).

For me, with fridge, tv, modem, laptop, cordless phone, led and cfl lights DVR etc I would be fine with 1000AH @ 24vdc and about 1000watts of solar charging power.  I'd still need the genny in the winter but experience has taught me that I am not too far off now with 660AH (GCB's so probably less really) and 615watts of solar.

WOW!  More than I had planned on running but that just about covers the full range of devices that can be run on solar.  I've got a line on a well equipped and ready to run 48V setup but it just seems to be more than I would ever use, and I don't have a firm price on it either and i'm guessing that kind of solar isn't all that cheap.

[OlJarhead]

48v would be better than 24v IMHO and all systems are tending to head that direction these days anyway.

The batteries are the big expense which is why I went with GCB's (Golf Cart Batteries)/ Solar panels run about $1/watt or less these days (specially for non-UL rated Blems at places like sunelec.com) so 1000watts is $1000 or less these days (plus shipping of course), then of course you need cables, combiner boxes, breakers etc etc...inverters like mine run about $1400 (4000 watt pure sine with 1200watt charger) and a controller for the panels runs about $600 and up....batteries can run $1000 for 12 GCB's to $3500+ for good solar batteries (more AH too) and the genny I run is about $3500 if I remember right...

Just to give you some ball parks.

I love the solar though.

[nailit69]

The setup this guy has for sale is 6 good sized panels (don't recall the wattage) 16 batteries (again, don't recall what type),  heated/insulated battery storage box, 2-5000w inverters, breaker panel, all associated wiring, manuals, backup genny, etc., claiming it was a 60a-220v setup.  That's a lot of solar power... hell, my on grid cabin now is 100a service.  Seemed like a boatload of power and equipment to transport and setup.

Like I said before, I have ZERO solar experience short of putting a solar charger on the gate opener... it was plug n play... not sure that counts as experience.  I don't know what to look for or what questions to ask.  I think solar will be a good project after the cabin is up and running. 

Is there any "special wiring" necessary for solar or does it work on standard 14ga. house wire?  I plan on wiring it like a normal house and plugging it into a genny for now but if I need anything special in the future i'd like to be ready for it.

[OlJarhead]

We have a forum topic here on off grid power which might help, and some pretty smart guys that I learned a lot from

House wiring is standard, the solar power setup just replaces the utility power in an off-grid setup.  So think of it that way.

Without knowing more about that system none of us can really comment.

My system, which utilizes 3 205 watt 12v panels in series (using 10awg wire with connectors to match the panels and 10awg wire from the panels to the combiner box) feeds a charge controller which charges the battery bank.  The batteries supply power to the inverter which in turn provides the 120vac power to the cabin.  There are some good installers in the OK county area though, if you went that route.

[nailit69]

I'll look into it more after the cabin is done.  It's not going to happen this year... not in the budget... maybe that can be one for '16.

Thanks for the advice

[OlJarhead]

Some time ago someone posted a link to making a soda can solar heater and I'm seriously considering this now.  I believe I can build a 48" x 72" 'heater' that mounts to the wall on the outside of the cabin and draws air from the floor inside the cabin through the wall and exhausts warm air out the top (which would be below the ceiling / loft floor.  My thought is that if I can get some solar heating to provide heat to the cabin in the winter particularly when I'm not there, it might keep the cabin a little warmer and perhaps even above freezing year round.  It wouldn't be a critical system, just something to provide additional heat during the winter when no one is around with the hope that I could keep the cabin warmer during the day without me being there.

Seems like they are pretty simple to build and very cheap but I don't drink pop for the most part and it might take me a long time to get the 200 cans or so that I'd need (maybe I can get the kids to save theirs).

Just something I'm pondering these days.

[UK4X4]

We had a south facing large window on our trailer, during the day we had 20 oC  inside with no heat on, outside was -20 at night but probably 10 oC  during the day in a sunny area
the window was single glazed, so at night all the heat exited as quick as it had come in...

Unless we got back and covered the windows with double bubble foil, the gained heat was swiftly lost

I think solar, radiant heated systems do function, but collecting and protecting the heat is difficult

How the system works, how the heat is distributed and stored, insulated is a pretty technical thermal guesstimate!

[nailit69]

Some time ago someone posted a link to making a soda can solar heater and I'm seriously considering this now.  I believe I can build a 48" x 72" 'heater' that mounts to the wall on the outside of the cabin and draws air from the floor inside the cabin through the wall and exhausts warm air out the top (which would be below the ceiling / loft floor.  My thought is that if I can get some solar heating to provide heat to the cabin in the winter particularly when I'm not there, it might keep the cabin a little warmer and perhaps even above freezing year round.  It wouldn't be a critical system, just something to provide additional heat during the winter when no one is around with the hope that I could keep the cabin warmer during the day without me being there.

Seems like they are pretty simple to build and very cheap but I don't drink pop for the most part and it might take me a long time to get the 200 cans or so that I'd need (maybe I can get the kids to save theirs).

Just something I'm pondering these days.

I've seen that setup... i've got plenty of cans and i'm definitely going to build and test one... the unti I saw was pumping out 120F air with a small PC style fan drawing air into it during winter.  I want to experiment with all sorts of alternate energy sources... mostly for fun but if something works, use it.

Saw a home mede solar water heater that worked so well that water went in but only pure steam would come out the end.

[nailit69]

We had a south facing large window on our trailer, during the day we had 20 oC  inside with no heat on, outside was -20 at night but probably 10 oC  during the day in a sunny area
the window was single glazed, so at night all the heat exited as quick as it had come in...

Unless we got back and covered the windows with double bubble foil, the gained heat was swiftly lost

I think solar, radiant heated systems do function, but collecting and protecting the heat is difficult

How the system works, how the heat is distributed and stored, insulated is a pretty technical thermal guesstimate!

Double pane windows are the key piece... My cabin now has all double pane windows but before I installed the last 2 it would get so darn cold in here I had to run the heater almost non-stop... huge difference now that they're all in. 

[OlJarhead]

Insulation

My cabin has Low E windows which help a lot and we keep the curtains closed when gone (and the south facing ones are thick to keep the heat out in the summer.  The cabin doesn't lose heat quickly so I believe a properly set up solar heater might well help with the cabin inside temp.

Today, if the temp falls to -5 the cabin will eventually get down there or close to it.  The sun might warm it up some but it's well insulated and it takes more sun to do that than what's hitting it currently.  So, often enough anyway, I can arrive at the cabin and it's COLDER inside than out.  Not always of course, but it does happen and I think it's because there are a lot more hours of cooling than heating.

Most of the time, however it's slightly warmer.  The porch, which is only partly insulated (3 out of 4 walls -- no roof or floor insulation yet) is always 10 or more degrees warmer because it has three uncovered double pane windows.  The sun warms it up, and while it loses a lot of heat it always seems to only lose enough to be 10-12 degrees warmer than outside air (night/morning)....during the day it can be many degrees warmer.  So when I arrive a lot of the time I open the door to the porch and use it's heat to help heat the cabin

[nailit69]

Ol'J

Do you stay up there year round or do you close up in the winter?  I'd love to spend a winter up there but I would also want to be more than prepared with plenty of supplies, firewood, a snowmobile, fuel, etc..  I spent a few years in Chicago so i've got a really good idea of how cold negative temps can be.  If I rathole some money over the summer I could certainly afford to be unemployed for the winter thus not having to leave the house everyday.

[OlJarhead]

I lived there full time from October of last year through to September of this year but my job changed a little and I now office in Moses Lake instead of Omak.  I still have an office in Omak though so go up every week or two and spend a few days.

I enjoyed my time living there and was pretty well set when I was there (back a few pages - or more - and you'll see posts from that time).  I had to commute 45 miles to work daily but it wasn't a bad drive and I was able to leave work early a lot or work from the cabin so it was pretty nice.  I also have a 50hp 4wd tractor and plow blade so I was able to keep the roads clear.  The place is well insulated now too and I didn't burn much wood.  There were some challenges but I was up for it

[nailit69]

Well, it's official... the papers have been signed on a 20ac. piece of paradise up there in the Okanogan.  I'll have to start my own thread now... LOL .  I only wish this could have happened a few months earlier in the year... before winter.

My brother and I are chomping at the bit and want to get up there and start building something.  We've got trucks, a trailer, a Kubota tractor, a small Komatsu excavator, generators, tools, even some of the foundation materials ready to go. 

I'm going to guess that daytime highs only being in the upper 20s and the ground frozen solid, that those aren't the most ideal conditions to attempt to dig or build a foundation, just keeping the ground and the water for the cement thawed will be impractical if not impossible.

We're probably going to hold off on digging/building until spring when things thaw out and daytime highs get into the 40s or 50s... April or so hopefully.  How are things up there around April?

We do want to go back over soon and walk it again... we drove a VW Golf up there and only had about an hour to look around and talk w/the sellers rep the first time we were there... i'm thinking my 4x4 and a couple of days to look around and see what else is up there should be adequate this time.

[OlJarhead]

Lows in the mid 20's right now but the ground is always hard as a rock this time of year...frozen solid.  Like concrete.  I wouldn't contemplating digging unless I planned a big burn first and concrete now is almost out of the question.

Best bet is to wait.  4x4 with good chains depending on location/roads etc.

[OlJarhead]

Looking forward to seeing the cabin this week   Heading out to spend a long weekend there and work in Omak.  I'm expecting some snow but it sounds like the foot plus we had mostly melted in the Chinook that blew in.  Guess I'll find out when I arrive.

[nailit69]

Let me know how things are over there... I'm thinking about heading back over next weekend to look around if I can swing it.  I've got an interview with the county I live in now for a nice office job (Plans Examiner) so i'll have to work around that.  Steady pay with paid time off and 28 paid vacation and personal days each yr... my sister works in the same dept. so I have an insider, lol.  Just might get this old(ish) carpenter out off the jobsite yet.  I'll miss it... just not that much  .  Actually i'll miss it alot... just not always having to hustle up work and making sure I get paid ontime.

[OlJarhead]

Nothing wrong with a good staying paying job

I'll post some updates from the cabin

[OlJarhead]

Arrived safely at the cabin

It's about 32 degrees out and the snow is only a few inches deep now (hd more I'm told but melted in a Chinook). The roads were pretty good and when I arrived the cabin power was at 26vdc so nicely charged up however the generator battery was dead and I'm waiting for it to be charged enough to get it running now.

Inside cabin temp was 39F when I arrived and it's now up to about 52F so rising nicely. While waiting for the cabin to warm up I managed to get most of the driveway plowed so it will be much better to drive on specially if it snows this weekend.

Next up is to check the game cams and see if the genny will start. Then with the cabin temp rising I'll turn the water on and cross my fingers and finally bring in some wood for the stove and think about making some dinner

So far all is well and it looks like a great time to be at the cabin.

[OlJarhead]

Happy to report the generator fired up on the 2nd try and is charging the bank and providing power.  Also happy to note that I have running water too

This weekend I'll replace the broken water heater with my spare and I'll run the heater in the grey water tank so I can use the sinks etc and take a shower

Life is good when you have power, water, heat and good food and drink when at the cabin

[nailit69]

Glad to hear things are generally in order up there... makes me feel better about the average winter east of the mountains.  I'm picturing scenes from "Life Below Zero" everytime I show up but it doesn't sound to bad (most of the time)... once I have a foothold up there I think we'll be fine.

[OlJarhead]

It's quite doable   My neighbor has been off the grid and living full time up here for over 30 years!

Day two at the cabin and getting it warmed up after being gone at work all day.  It was a reasonable 60F degrees inside so that's good and fortunately the generator didn't run all day either (not since this morning) so I'm feeling better about that for sure.

Power is at 23.7vdc with about a 90 watt draw on the system and showing 96% of capacity on the meter.  I'll probably set the generator to run soon and set it to run 5 hours so the bank gets a good solid charge and than hopefully the batteries will hold all night (I think they will since they held through the day though there would have been at least a little solar charging going on).

Perhaps tomorrow I might put some insulation in the porch roof which should help it stay warmer during the day which will allow the batteries to provide more capacity.