Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)

[OlJarhead]

First full week at the cabin and it's going pretty well.  The hughesnet does strange things when you type fast (I suppose that's the lag) though this only seems to happen with FB and not other sites...hmmm...


With the room taking longer then I'd hoped to get done we've had to adjust to having no toilet inside the cabin (outhouse for emergency use) and we've survived with that but it's getting old fast! lol  Today being Friday and the boys needing to pack everything up to take home for the weekend (since we still don't have a generator backup in place I don't want to leave the fridge on when I'm gone) it is unlikely they will get much done today except maybe mill the 2x6 boards for the rafters.


Ferrelgas has really started to piss me off as they continue to not call me back.  I've had to call tem a few times and they assure me they are working on it but my guess is they are NOT a good company.  Problem is, everyone seems to use them in this area and claims they are cheaper than Amerigas -- I'll find out today when I call Amerigas and se if they can come out ASAP and deliver a 500 gallon propane tank etc.


If I can get the propane installed next week and we can get the composting toilet re-installed then we're almost there.  We'll still have to get a heater and install it in the new room and we'll need a door, an entrance way and roofing but those can be done later once the toilet is installed and the room is at least sealed up and protecting the toilet from the cold and the rain.

Speaking of cold it's 30 degrees this morning and that seems to be the trend right now.  I've had no problem keeping the cabin warm though and only get up once or twice in the night, if I am awake, to stoke the fire.  I don't really have to do that but I prefer a warm cabin and know that if I leave it warm it's less likely to be cold when I return Of course, finishing the insulation and interior will help with that.


Perhaps my biggest issue is the solar power.  I have 8 ol cart batteries (220ah each) in a series parallel configuration that gives me a 12 volt bank with 880 amp hours of capacity (at a 20hr draw rate).  With the batteries around 70 degrees this is enough power to run the fridge and freezer and some lights for 24 hours no problem and perhaps up to 3 days at 80% drain.  However I'm finding that this time of year with the batteries dropping to 39 degrees at night and our using the TV, laptop, hugesnet modem etc the batteries drop to 50% drain overnight!  That's a problem.

I have a new inverter (24v) and some other items that should reduce usage and improve efficiency once installed and the new room should keep the batteries above 50 degrees which will help also but I'm going to have to watch the power usage this winter or I'll be running the generator a LOT.  I figured I can run it 4 hours a day if need be over the coldest part of the winter but if the battery bank were well matched to the usage I have I'd only need the generator on cloudy days after abusing power without much solar ativity -- or like my neighbor on weekends when I'm home all day.

Not much I can do about that now but next year I'll need to get better batteries with more reserve.

Also, the AIMS Modified Sine wave inverter (square wave) is NOT adequate for my needs now.  It continues to crash on us whenever we try to increase the load on it.  Despite being rated at 2500 watts with a 5000 watt surge it doesn't seem to be able to handle running 2 CFL lights, the TV and Satellite box and say the fridge if i kicks on o the freezer....when that happens it dumps the power and we have to get up and reset it.  So I can't wait to get the industrial grade 4000 watt pure sine inverter installed!

Anyway, time to make lunch and pack up for work.  It's been a great week at work though and I actually look forward to getting in an starting my day   What could be better?

[Squirl]

Sorry I don't have any specific answers to any questions.  I just haven't commented in a while. It is good to see you living out your dream.  I remember when you started.  You have come a long way.  Also thanks for posting all the information on the transition to life at the new place.  The information on all the little things, from the water heater to the inverter, are great reading and very helpful.

Are those the same batteries from when you started?

[rick91351]

Having used Hughes at the neighbors and Excede the Wild Blue spin off or redesign which we have here....      I think Excede has it hands down.  But that said here in this area there are no more subscriptions available.  But there is still that delay in up load and down load. Really not like to the local cable or DSL Hub. 

We had a meeting with planing and zoning up here the other day.  One of the things we talked about was is there any monies available to place or attract a or a couple cell phone towers up here.  People are willing to donate the land to use.  Two good issues were brought up one was E-911 is hardly of any use if you can not contact some one.  Second -  During the fires we had up here this summer and lack of good radios we could have had cell phoned between dozers and water wagons and trucks.  We queried are there any Obamba Buck$ available for such?  If there were then we could all bundle packages of phone, cell phone and internet.  Most of the phone lines up here are like Alexander Graham Bell meets the twenty first century and fail badly.  Planing and Zoning says they will look into it.  You might put some feelers out up there as well! 

         

[OlJarhead]

Sorry I don't have any specific answers to any questions.  I just haven't commented in a while. It is good to see you living out your dream.  I remember when you started.  You have come a long way.  Also thanks for posting all the information on the transition to life at the new place.  The information on all the little things, from the water heater to the inverter, are great reading and very helpful.

Are those the same batteries from when you started?

Thanks.

Same batteries so I'm probably pushing them a bit more then I should.  If I could add a 3rd string I would but with the first 6 being about 3 years old now and the last two being 2 years old I don't think it's a good idea.  Having said that I plan to ride them out with the Generac until late spring then put in some L16's (or whatever I can get that's got long life and lots of power).  I'm budgetting about $3k for batteries now!

The hot water heater is almost working the way it should and I guess for $200 you can't expect it to be a Bosh! lol  But one pain in the rear is that despite having good water pressure it doesn't like it when I run hot and cold at the same time and shuts off unless I keep the cold down.  I suspect it has something to do with the install since I KNOW I have tons of pressure.  I'm thinking that the 1/2" pex to sinks might be the issue or perhaps the cheaper headers I've used.  Just not sure.  I'm feeding the cabin with a 1" PVC that gets T'd off into two 1/2" feeds.  One goes to the cold water header and one to the hot water heater which then goes to the hot water header.  You'd think that would provide plenty of volume and not drop pressure in the heater but it seems to dissagree!

[OlJarhead]

Looking at the Marey Hot Water heater Doc I see that it requires a min of 10psi (it will start at 8psi actually) and 3.1GPM to fire and continue running.

I think my problem is that it loses flow when the cold gets turned on -- and I can't see why that is considering it's fed by a 1" main which should easily flow 3.1GPOM out of 2 lines (if not more).  Maybe I'm missing something.

[MountainDon]

(or whatever I can get that's got long life and lots of power).   I'm budgeting about $3k for batteries now!

http://www.thesolarbiz.com/Trojan-L16RE-2V-1110-AH

[Squirl]

Looking at the Marey Hot Water heater Doc I see that it requires a min of 10psi (it will start at 8psi actually) and 3.1GPM to fire and continue running.

I think my problem is that it loses flow when the cold gets turned on -- and I can't see why that is considering it's fed by a 1" main which should easily flow 3.1GPOM out of 2 lines (if not more).  Maybe I'm missing something.

Maybe the shower head.  If the head has a 5 gpm output and 50% of the water from the hot side and 50% of the water from the cold side, you are only getting 2.5 gpm flow out of each side.  This just gave me something to think about.  I was going to install a low flow 1.2 gpm shower head.  Most tankless water heaters probably wouldn't even turn on.

[OlJarhead]

http://www.thesolarbiz.com/Trojan-L16RE-2V-1110-AH

One of my guys asked me why I just don't use batteries like we have in the CO (3600AH 2v batteries) and I explained that size is a large part of it!  Those things are HUGE.

The L16 H AC (http://www.thesolarbiz.com/Trojan-L16H-AC-6V-Battery-435-AH) would run me $2600 for 870AH at 24vdc vs $3900 for 1110AH at 24vdc for those L16RE 2V 1110AH batteries so I'll probably go with the smaller ones.  That extra $1300 is just a little more then I can handle I think, but it's definately something I'll keep in  mind for next year.

[OlJarhead]

Maybe the shower head.  If the head has a 5 gpm output and 50% of the water from the hot side and 50% of the water from the cold side, you are only getting 2.5 gpm flow out of each side.  This just gave me something to think about.  I was going to install a low flow 1.2 gpm shower head.  Most tankless water heaters probably wouldn't even turn on.

WOW!  I hadn't thought of that!  DOH!  It makes a lot of sense too!  If 8GPM is the min flow the heater will ignite on and if it must maintain that it stands to reason this is the issue as it will so,metimes quit even with just hot running (any time my aerator picks up sediment it can prevent the instant on heater from working and I have to clean it out).

My faucets are new and I don't doubt the shower head is newer too so it is likely that I'm killing the flow rate through the heater and when I turn on the cold it takes some of that flow from it because of the shower restriction.  I can perform a simple test by removing the low-flow aerators and then trying out the heater.  If it works with both hot and cold on then I'll try increasing the water flow dial on the heater and see what that does.

I had a plumber once who removed the aerator from a shower that was so low flowing it was pitiful.  It was then almost painful because of the high pressure we have at our house (maybe the city water guys increased pressure to overcome some of the low-flow stuff being forced on us??  Who knows?

Anyway, it's an encouraging place to start!  Thanks

[MountainDon]

  If 8GPM is the min flow the heater will ignite on .....

But I am quite sure it is no where near that high.     The user manual unfortunately does not list the minimum required flow to activate the burner; at least not that I could find. Lots of other data, but not that. It does have temperature rise charts; where if the flow is this much and if the temperature setting is highest or lowest, the chart indicates the maximum degrees of temperature rise.  The flow columns go down to 0.5 GPM.  So if that means anything at all it would seem the minimum flow rate is somewhere between 0.0 and 0.5 GPM.  It does not make sense to me that the flow must be higher than the 0.5 GPM to initiate the burner.  Doesn't make sense but that does not mean it is not possible that the flow be higher and then turned back. Would be nice if the manual explained the flow required for ignition. 

I do see that at the highest flow rate the temperature rise is quite low; 30 F for the 10L at 3.0 GPM.   Is the burner actually cutting off or the water just going cold?

Have no other ideas... still head scratching...

[OlJarhead]

Thanks for the reply Don -- I missed that chart.

The burner actually shuts off and I have to turn the flow knob to the lowest setting. 

Temperature rise is SO HIGH that I have to adjust it to SUMMER despite the VERY cold water coming into it and have the flame set to midway between the lowest and highest settings.  Then it gets about 115 to 120 degrees at mosts.  If I set it to WINTER and midway it gets scalding hot!

It will not run at all with the flow setting above the minimum.

[OlJarhead]

 

4. Low water pressure start up function:
This unit requires only 8 PSI to fire, making it suitable for users with low water
pressure, or those who are using it to supply hot water to upper floors. Please note
that the water flow and water pressure are not the same. Sufficient flow is always
required to keep the overheat safety sensor from shutting the unit off.

8PSI not 8GPM

So the GPM's aren't the issue and I read that wrong.  It's 8PSI which I KNOW I have -- in fact I have a LOT more then that.

So now I'm really scratching my head.  I'll have to call them I think.
http://www.marey.com/product_pdf/english/6.pdf

[MountainDon]

.....the high pressure we have at our house (maybe the city water guys increased pressure to overcome some of the low-flow stuff being forced on us??  Who knows?

The usual reason water utilities run very high pressures is simply to ensure there is sufficient pressure and flow at the homes at the end of the water mains runs. When we moved into our home in '85 the water pressure was 80 psi. We are within a mile of the well/tank. The pressure rose as the area further away from the pump/tank expanded. When the pressure got to being a consistent 120 psi we installed a pressure regulator after the city meter. High pressures are bad for the control valves on things like dishwashers, clothes washers and even refrigerator ice makers.

[MountainDon]

I was going to install a low flow 1.2 gpm shower head.  Most tankless water heaters probably wouldn't even turn on.

I believe Bosch fire up at 0.50 GPM (last time I looked at one) 

[OlJarhead]

Went in to HD and found a 'Full Flow' tap adapter with a straight screen in it.  I'll pop the screen out and replace the low-flow aerator with it and see if that helps.  I also found a 'soap and pause' shower head that I thought might be nice to try.

[OlJarhead]

WhooHoo   Ordered a 50 watt Pioneer car stereo receiver / CD Deck with an antenna and extra cable off Amazon.  When it arrives I'll install it and have a nice radio to listen to at the cabin

[MountainDon]

Temperature rise is SO HIGH that I have to adjust it to SUMMER despite the VERY cold water coming into it and have the flame set to midway between the lowest and highest settings.  Then it gets about 115 to 120 degrees at mosts.  If I set it to WINTER and midway it gets scalding hot!

What type of shower control do you have?  A code compliant shower control has temperature/pressure compensation to eliminate the hazard of the head spraying out water that is too hot.

[OlJarhead]

What type of shower control do you have?  A code compliant shower control has temperature/pressure compensation to eliminate the hazard of the head spraying out water that is too hot.

Not really sure but I suspect a very old one! lol  This tub was installed in 1922 in it's original location and removed by us to take to the cabin.  The taps and shower attachment are original as far as I can tell but the shower head appears to be newer though that's kinda subjective lol

The head I bought is a newer 2.5gpm head designed for houses with low water pressure (so it says) and a lever that will cut it out while you soap up -- which works for me as it conserves both water and propane.

[UK4X4]

In the UK and europe we use a lot of on demand water heaters

input and output are usually 25mm pipes or 1"

they don't like the 15mm or 1/2" pipes for some reason

Obviously with such an old tap setup - its probably just on off flat valves rather than a needle shape to give easy flow control

The other issue that hit me recently in the UK was the size of the shower hose, the tenant had been complaining for years about the shower flow

upped the hose size to 1" and I saved a 2000usd shower pump and install...

On demand heaters are a lot more fickle than a standard water heater arrangement
its all about balance.

probably worth a couple of pressure gauges and some needle valves to see if you can balance the circuit.

A bypass circuit can be used too.

We normally use it in the central heating system but can be used to maintain a steady heat in a on demand system too

If you have too little flow the heater kicks in and out causing fluctuations and scolding un maintainable heat

Add a circuit from the output of the heater to the input- allowing hot water to circulate, run it arround an area you want to heat too if you wanted, like a towel rail in the bathroom...the balance line should have a valve in it so you can adjust the flow to make the heater happy

This way the heater has a constant demand on it- it limits the on off syndrome and makes the heated water a steady 1 temperature stream

[OlJarhead]

I was thinking that installing a 3/4" feed would help but realized the fittings on the Marey are 1/2" MIP so I'm not sure how much good it will do but I do plan to try to make that work.  I might be able to go from 3/4" pex to 1/2" MIP and then run 3/4" outfeed line to the header.  Perhaps that will at least maintain pressure a little better at the heater.

[OlJarhead]

This week will have to be a productive one but I'm not entirely certain how we'll do that! lol  I leave for work at 6:15am and return around 5:45pm which means I have about 1 hour (maybe 90 minutes) of daylight to work in if I want to do anything.  My son's though, will spend several hours in the day trying to get stuff done (they've done most of the work anyway lately).  What we are challenged with is:

1.  Place 2" foam board behind cinderblock wall under cabin and backfill.
2.  Place 2" foam board on the east wall (L shaped to push the frost zone away from the wall) and backfill as much as possible by hand.
3.  Place 2" foam board on the west wall but only about half way down the wall and backfill as much as possibly by hand.
4.  Build 36" x 48"x 4" concrete pad for entrance and pour concrete with center drain
5.  Cut rafters and frame and sheet roof
6.  Dry stack cinder blocks on entrance pad and make wood stairs
7.  Screw furring and 2" foam to outside walls (MountainDon -- should there be some vapor barrier there or is the 2" foam enough for that?)
8.  Put 30# felt over roof sheathing.

Then of course I need to order roofing material and start the boys on milling some live sawn siding which we will nail up green and we need to get a 28" solid door (ok maybe not solid but flat and we'll probably insulate it too)

We need to get the toilet installed again and will be ordering the heater for the room in the next couple days.

Also, I'm waiting on the propane guys to come install a 500lbs tank.  Once it's installed I'll insulate and backfill that section and then install the back up generator and move the solar power to the new space for it (once I make a shelf for the batteries and put some plywood up on the wall.

And of course I need to cut and chop some firewood.  I figure I have a month or so to get it all done!  YIKES! 

[Native_NM]

Looks like a white face Hornet nest.  Nasty litle buggers.  Got a nest hanging on my porch at the cabin.  Empty of course. 

Could be worse -

http://slumz.boxden.com/f610/giant-hornets-attacking-chinese-citizens-not-faint-heart-1984499/

[OlJarhead]

Replacing the low-flow aerator with a 'full flow screen resolved the issue of my kitchen sink not having enough flow and kicking off the hot water

However now my shower is not working right and the hot isn't staying on for it....grrr I'll put in a full flow screen there too I guess. 

Marey did respond to my question about the unit and this is what they sent:

Actually, this is not a problem with the unit, per say. As the unit is pressure activated, once you start to add in the cold, you are actually diverting the pressure from the hot to the cold, so the unit shuts off. The way to correct this is to make the temperature as comfortable as possible, without adding in much cold, so the pressure stays consistent. Let me know if you have any other questions.

The only issue I have is that I have to seperate systems.  One for cold and one for hot and while they are both fed by the same 1" pipe the volume via that pipe should handle more then two 1/2" feeds easily.  So turning on cold shouldn't impact the hot at all.

My only guess is that the low-flow heads are restricting water flow so much that the unit thinks it's losing pressure and quits.

[small cabin dreamer]

Your place is very inspirational!
I have followed your build, and think it is awesome that you get to live there full time!
I have a question, When you did your beams and joists how much cantilever did you use, and what do you recommend hindsight being 20/20? I saw that you would have liked to use larger beams and joists which I will use, but I cannot find anything on the cantilever above the beams. I will also have 2x6 walls, 10 feet tall. It appears that since the builders cottage is on a real cement foundation there is no cantilever listed.

[OlJarhead]

Your place is very inspirational!
I have followed your build, and think it is awesome that you get to live there full time!
I have a question, When you did your beams and joists how much cantilever did you use, and what do you recommend hindsight being 20/20? I saw that you would have liked to use larger beams and joists which I will use, but I cannot find anything on the cantilever above the beams. I will also have 2x6 walls, 10 feet tall. It appears that since the builders cottage is on a real cement foundation there is no cantilever listed.

What I did:  I used 2x6 floor joists and a 22" cantelever (sort of) but then supported every 4 feet with a 2x4 brace to the post and pier foundation.

What I plan on doing:  Installing concrete footings around the outside of the cabin footprint and building a cinder block / wood foundation wall up to the cabin.

What I recommend:  I recommend (when building a 14 foot wide structure) using ap-propriate floor joists for the span (2x10 min I believe) with a concrete foundation (this could be a concrete footing with dry stacked cinderblock walls which is what I'll eventually have).

In the end I'll have the original post and pier foundation and a perimeter concrete/cinderblock type foundation so the original will just support the floor and the walls etc will be on the new foundation (if I understand the load sharing right).

The post and pier DOES work but frankly I don't like it *snicker* but I won't beat it up too much since it got me going and I'm living in the place now

Thanks for the kind words and GOOD luck on yours!

PS.  Go bigger!  I recommend 16x24 instead of 14x24 and I recommend 2x10 floor joists in the loft too (then you can go with 24" centers) and larger rafters (say a min of 2x8 but maybe better at 2x10).

PPS.  A neighbor found that using two layers of 2" foam is all the insualtion he needs out here in the harshest time of the year -- I found that interesting in light of what I'm doing in my addition.