Floor plan sense check

[walkabout]

I bought the 20' Single story plans from this site 2 years ago, but because of some zoning, variance and finance issues we are thankfully ready to start our cabin rebuild this spring.
Originally I had thought I could build 1 20'x30' 1 1/2 story over a full basement, but because of zoning regulations I was only approved for the following:
- 20'x27' single story - 1 bedroom
- over a 6' 6" crawlspace
- holding tank septic

Here is my proposed floorplan:

and an external view:


I spent many hours building a model to my original plan, only to have it rejected. At leaset I had a lot of fun building a scale model and learning framing techniques:

Full model album: https://s677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/home_walkabout_usa/Cabin%20rebuild/
Original topic: http://countryplans.com/smf/index.php?topic=6499.0

CONCERNS:
Does the floorplan look feasable?
We think the bathroom does not need to be so big and we can convert some of the space into closet space. Any good ideas?
We are debating if we should have a fireplace or make use of more lake facing windows. (my wife wants forced air heat so we might drop the fireplace and add more windows)

[rick91351]

I think I would X out the fireplace and do a wood stove and furnace especially if there are a lot of power outages in your area.  Is this a primary or secondary residence?  Stoves are nice especially in a cabin.  That said you most likely would need some form of heat when no one is there.  Unless you are planing to drain your water system and winterize the traps and toilet when you leave in the winter time.   

Love your model that took a lot of work 

[Don_P]

What was the reason for rejection? Can the crawlspace be turned into a full height basement, seems a waste at that height not to.

[walkabout]

Thanks for the feedback.

Bayview,
I did not think your kitchen layout would work for. Unless I am misunderstanding your diagram, it would appear that you are proposing the kitchen to go along the lake view side (20' side) of cabin which would block our view. I did however try a different layout without the booth and are starting to like it:


rick91351,
this is a secondary residence (aka summer lake cabin) about 50 miles from Minneapolis. we have access to natural gas so we will most likely be putting in a furnace, but a gas fireplace would be nice too. I would go with gas over a wood stove since we have access to gas.
Yes, the model was a lot of fun to build and I highly encourage anyone who is going to build to at least try a wall or two to understand the framing concepts before using real wood.

Don_P,
According to the township people and the county people we are on an undersized lot and that we are "lucky" that they are even allowing us to rebuild. Or existing 1920 cabin (20x22) is falling apart, does not have running water and we have been using an outhouse for 5 years. They only approved a holding tank as again they said that our lot is undersized. Because we are on a holding tank they will only allow a one bedroom and want the basement restricted to 6'6" as this is the maximum a "storage" area can be. It is all this "fun" stuff that has delayed my project 2 years.

[rick91351]

Thanks, I now understand why you said it was a cabin rebuild.  I also am seeing where you wish to preserve your view as much as possible.  (Believe me I do understand that).  So your septic tank is a holding tank then.  Does your gray water have to go there as well?  I am guessing it would but I am wondering if they would allow a small drain field for that? 

I am with Bayveiw the booth has got to go.  Table and chairs they can migrate, and mutate into more usable space.  I think your redraw makes the floor plan have a lot more lot more usable space.

I would think about rearranging the appliances in the galley kitchen a little.  Could you move the range to the wall where stairway is?  Here is an idea that might work and I have seen it in a couple of design books lately, and we really like it.  On the sink wall whatever direction that is you could put another window on both sides of the sink.  I agree this would do away with the traditional uppers there.  Where your range is showing now turn that in to a floor to ceiling cabinet.  This would open the kitchen up more.  You would still have usable counter space both sides of the sink, but more natural light and more openness.   

I would agree if you have natural gas to use that.  It also casts a lot different aspects to a fireplace.  You are not having to pour a fireplace footing and ton of masonry work or a framing a chase with a triple wall pipe to the outside or something like that.  Gas fireplaces are a great way to go I think.     

I do have question that I think is very relevant to a lot of people monitoring this forum.  If you would have done this ten years ago do you feel it would have been easier to what you want to do, harder or the same? 

[walkabout]

rick91351,
Yes the grey water has to go into the tank too. They are very strict about runoff to our lake. I have even been told I have to install gutters and a rain garden and have all water from the gutters go into the rain garden. If we lived further from Minneapolis I beleive the stippulations would be far less.

As to your second question regading whether it would have been easier or harder to build 10 years ago.
Minnesota was more restrictive 10 years ago on rebuilds on undersized lots. They put a law into effect later that effectively you can rebuild on the existing footprint without variances (no expansion) as too many cabin owners could do absolutely nothing with their cabins except fix them. Because I am expanding 100 sq foot (for a bathroom) I had to go through the zoning board to get variances and prove my 'hardship'. My hardship basically was that in today's modern age you can reasonably expect a bathroom and running water in a house.

[JRR]

Would the terrain slope allow you to have an outside door for access to the crawlspace ... and do away with the inside staircase?  ... or perhaps a circular staircase to save space?  Jefferson staircase and trap door?

[poppy]

Here's my 2 cents:

Do you really have to have a full sized stairway down to the storage crawlspace?  If it can't be used as living space, wouldn't a ships ladder or some other compact staircase be OK?

I would reduce the size of the kitchen inorder to increase the size of the bedroom. 

And I can't imagine that all of that counter and cabinet space would be necessary (in your second layout) in a cabin, plus the refrigerator is too far from the sink and stove.

[JRR]

Since you have gas, you may want to consider an incinerating toilet ... might make that holding tank easier to live with.
.
http://www.inspectapedia.com/septic/altincinerate.htm

[Squirl]

Why not an outside staircase with steel door?  It would also provide a fire escape if the crawl space were ever finished.  At least with a crawl space like that you will have plenty of room for utilities and storage.

[Squirl]

I second what JRR said too.  Although all waste water has to go into a holding tank, changing to a waterless toilet option, incinerator/composting, would probably cut down on your aggravation.

[bayview]

  I like your kitchen redraw!       Maybe, the stove could be moved . . .

  I wouldn't make the bathroom any smaller . . .    

   You would have a lot more room in the living area without the fireplace.

  Does the stairway need to be at the center of the cabin?

/.

[UK4X4]

I'm another one for loosing the staircase in such a small cabin, I found it bad enough trying to fit a code one in my larger floor plan

I would do a trap door and ladder and use that space for the bedroom and kitchen.

for extra storage /loftish, I'd change the roof to 12 x 12 and do a loft mid length covering bed and bath

[John Raabe]

I think I'd take the cellar restriction at their word and use it just for storage and install an outside Bilco type access hatch stair.



I would ask for clarity on the septic holding tank issue... This will need to be pumped out periodically. If you have to hold black water, gray water and site runoff - all going into the same tank, then your pump charges will soon get expensive. Separate these if you can and get some other way to deal with the less toxic wastes on site.

I assume the septic consideration involves the load on the soil. You have done a perc test, most likely. Are there alternative systems the local installer thinks can be approved? Get advice and bids from at least two septic installer/designers if you haven't done this already. This has to be worked out before you spend too much time on the design and construction. If you can't get a workable legal system for the main utilities your lot is basically unbuildable.

One thing we had to do on one unbuildable lot here on Whidbey island is to get another lot with a better perc to use for the drainfield.

[walkabout]

All, thanks you for all your advice. I can't wait till we have our building plans approved and our project actually starts as who would have thought that a floor plan would be so difficult!!

Storm doors:
My wife and I have considered bilco/storm doors and an internal spiral stair case, but decided against this option for a few reasons:
1. The spiral stairs still need about 5'x5' (25 sqft) of the floor area, while our conventional stairs would require approx 10x3 (30 sqft), so not that much savings in floor space.
2. Bilco access and spiral stairs will add more cost.

We have had 2 severe tornado storms recently that have required immediate access to storm shelter and we have had to run to our neigbours with 2 little kids. Access from within the cabin is a must for us now.

Septic:
Sorry for the confusion, only grey and black water needs to go in here. Runoff needs to be directed to a rain garden per the zoning approval and does not need to go into the tank.
I already spent $1,500 for a consultant design a high performance/small foot print system (MultiFlo system) that would have fit on our property according to MN State guidlines,
but because our county wants to be superior they have a higher standard (smaller setback requirements) that we can not meet. We have been advised to go with 2x1000 gallon tanks that are linked so that we can maximize the standard 200 gallon capacity of the septic pump trucks in our area.

[duncanshannon]

hiya walkabout-

which software did you use for the drawings?

[mitsuman47]

Where did you get the little scaled down pieces of wood for your model? And, I'm guessing you glued it together?

Count me intrigued.

EDIT: It looks like there's a big freakin' spider on your work bench. Just to the left of the house. Be careful! I h-a-t-e spiders.

[walkabout]

duncanshannon,
I used free Google Sketchup (http://sketchup.google.com/). It take a little getting used too, but it is not too difficult to use.

mitsuman47,
I cut the 2x6, and 2x10s out of scrp wood I had at home. I cut them slightly oversized and then used a thickness planer to get them to the correct 1:10 scale. I used a hot glue gun to glue them together.  Measuring became difficult as I did not have a tape measure/ruler that had the correct scale so I printed a 1:10 scale ruler that had each inch on the ruler with 12 markes for wach real inch.
It was a lot of fun making the model even though the layout and size that I built was not what was ultimitely approved by the county.

That "spider" is one of those plastic halloween spinder rings that kids wear.
Check out the other photos of the model. I tried to follow the building process I had been reading/learning about as much as possible. I am by no means an expert now, but at least the concepts of framing no longer scare me.
https://s677.photobucket.com/albums/vv137/home_walkabout_usa/Cabin%20rebuild/

[considerations]

Watched your slide show - what a cool model.  And an interesting way to explore framing.  I hope you hang on to that model, put it under glass like a ship's model or something.  It represents a lot of thought and craftsmanship.

[duncanshannon]

@walkabout - ive practiced with the 3d stuff a bit. how did you like it for the 2d... thinking about measurements etc.

[walkabout]

I have tried some other cheap 2d software and I find Sketchup is a lot easier to use. I have also tried TurboCad and found it too difficult do do simple layouts.
For modelling and measuring walls Sketchup does the trick, but if you want to model interior furniture/cabinets etc I think there are better tools.