Finally underway! My upstate NY 20 x 40 off-grid gets started

[AdironDoc]

After what seems like forever, spring arrived, and despite terrible weather, the project is in full swing. The camp came with a shell for a 16 x 24 guest cabin. While my neighbor/mill owner/builder works on the main camp, dad and I have been staying weekends at the guest cabin. Despite rain every weekend, our spirits weren't dampened.

After much thought and consultation with the local builder his engineer, I opted for a permanent wood foundation. As previously noted, he was against using posts. He's built dozens of houses, cabins and most of the stores in town and noted that in his experiences with PWF's versus the piers, the PWFs have outlasted the piers in almost every case. Moreover, no cement can be delivered this deep into the woods (2 miles of twisting trails). Traditional post/piers are subjected to terrible frost heave leaving many local cabins visibly leaning and their posts pointing in every direction. PWFs, when done correctly may last longer than piers and give me the benefit of a 6ft basement. Cost on the 20 x 40 was $7000 versus $3800 for piers. I'm happy because I have storage space, ease of pipe install, electric, etc. I will insulate a water tank and place it in the basement.

Note the truss design on the PWF works by tension and stabilizes with the load of the structure above it. A ice/water shield covers then entire wall which rises 2ft above surface grade. Under the footing, 2 ft of crushed stone leads into fenestrated pipes and down towards the creek. No standing groundwater should accumulate around the foundation. Under 6 inches of crushed stone on the floor, is a superweight plastic barrier. The water seen in the photo is because it's pouring out, and there is only a deck, no roof yet.




View from front with temporary steps.


View from creek.


My log trusses ready


My floor joists


Roofing insulation


Guest cabin 16 x 24 unfinished interior


Building a set of loft stairs and railing. Loft railing is outdoor premade $29 a length at Lowes.


Thanks to all of you for your advice, suggestions, help and inspiration. I'll post as the framing comes together. Roof should be on in two weeks. Seeing it in your mind is easy, getting it right on paper, frustrating and time consuming. Seeing it come alive as you walk the framed deck, Priceless!

Doc
http://theadirondoc.blogspot.com/2011/06/summer-is-here.html

[archimedes]

Looking good 

Good luck.

[jbos333]

Adirondoc,

looking good! I did have a question- Why didn't you go 8 ft. high on the PWF walls? Was there an engineering problem with the extra 2 feet? I am still considering PWF versus poured concrete for my foundation?

[new land owner]

Looking great, I am also looking at doing a pressure treated foundation and am interested in how you did it without a cement pad poured.  Has your builder done that in the past and has he had any issues with the walls moving in from the pressure of soils on the outside of the foundation?  I got an estimate on all materials for the PWF today and it came in at $4,000,.  I was also thinking that I may be able to install the cement pad at a later date?

[Squirl]

congratulations.

It looks great.  I think you are the first full depth PWF posted.  Great to see.  Keep those pictures coming, it is great.

[Turkeyhunter]

looks great

[AdironDoc]

Thanks, guys. According to my builder, some choose to pour a concrete pad and finish the floor, but for me, the basement was an afterthought and concrete is unavailable this deep in the woods. The crushed stone is typically used in camps in this area and serves my basic needs just fine. 5 foot walls were recommended as basic, but I went for 6ft for more usable room. 8 feet was also an option, but would have led to more expense and a deeper hole. The exterior foundation walls are 2 ft above the surface. Framing calls for 12 foot exterior walls to allow for 4ft walls in loft. Since the roof pitch is 12:12, I wanted to keep the overall cabin's height as low as possible and didn't really need the extra room down under. I suppose if height were not an issue, or was to advantage, we could have gone 4ft above grade to the decking.

The builder, who happens to be my neighbor and mill operator, was born here. He's skilled at furniture, cabinetry, log, post and beam, and stick building, having built most of the town's municipal and commercial buildings and a good amount of the homes here. His favorite cabin design mixes hand-hewn logs where visible, some post and beam elements for hidden support, and basic stick for 16 inch centers to ease insulation and nailing. Roofing and flooring upstairs will be tongue and groove white pine from my own timber, visible in between the logs and means no finishing is necessary. I have enough yellow birch to mill for my floors. Knotty pine for walls. Today I chose to increase the 8ft porch to 10ft deep for maximum living space. After all, the porch out back facing the creek is where I'll be spending a good deal of time.

As for PWF problems, John, my builder swears by the permanent wood foundations. He told me when done properly, he hasn't seen a single case of a PWF failing , some in the area being built over 30 yrs ago. Those that did weren't done properly or to spec. I must admit, I was skeptical at first, but I trust his 50 yrs experience, and have been very happy with what I've seen. If anyone has any specific questions or needs specs, I'll ask him next week and post the reply.

Nice to see a hole in the ground becoming a dream fulfilled.

Doc
http://theadirondoc.blogspot.com/2011/06/summer-is-here.html

[MountainDon]

I like the appearance of the timbers/logs.

I'm wondering about how the 12 foot high wall tops are to be tied together with the roof framing, loft floor, et al. Some questions on the PWF too but I'll have to revisit here as I need to address a trailer issue here at home first.

[MountainDon]

Not picking on you Doc, but I do have questions I would be asking the builder.

I believe PWF (permanent wood foundations) can work too. I have questions that came to my mind as I viewed those pictures though. Some questions may be simply because the images shown do not show all aspects of what went into the foundation. That would cover things like did the builder use a 2x footing plate under the bottom plate of the foundation wall? In all the Southern Pine Council information I've read, there is the usual bottom plate as used in any stick built wall and then there is a wider footing plate under that.

All the wood should be stamped as being foundation grade; not the usual material found at Big Blue and Big Orange. True foundation grade wood products have no heartwood as the chemicals do not penetrate heartwood properly. Foundation grade pressure treated wood is also re dried after treatment to bring the moisture content back into the correct kiln dried range (18% or less for plywood and 19% or less for lumber). Standard PT wood, more often than not, comes quite saturated. I recall being splashed on one occasion when I was driving nails into freshly treated wood.

I've never seen diagonal braces like those illustrated in any of the PWF information I've read. The foundation wall bottoms are usually either restrained by infill (inside the wall) to balance the backfill (outside the wall), or by a poured concrete pad or a framed wooden floor (joists and decking to form a bottom level diaphragm,) It's not to keep your feet dry so much as to be certain that the wall bottoms don't move. When a concrete slab is used the horizontal loads created on the wall bottoms by the backfill is evenly spread out. With diagonal bracing every 8 feet or so, a series of point loads are created which generate further stresses. As I'm not an engineer I'm not saying his method won't work. But I can say that anyone looking at this as something to be emulated will most likely run into difficulties if they have to build to code approved practices because this is not a prescribed process. I also question why it appears the diagonal bracing is applied to only the two long walls and not the end walls. Those end walls are subject to the same forces created by backfill along the long walls. At least in the photos end wall bracing is not apparent.

Another question centers on the center line supports. Telescoping steel columns like those are, to my knowledge, not approved anywhere in the USA for a permanent support. They are approved for temporary supports while permanent structure is placed; think renovations as a prime area of temporary use. There are one piece steel columns that are okay for permanent use. They will have labels with reference to to an ICC-ES Report and be three inches or more in diameter as the IRC specifies.. So I'm not sure about those in the picture. More than likely those are up to the job, they just don't pass code requirements.

More than the tele-posts themselves I wonder about the "footings" the builder used for those posts. The steel posts bear on 2x laid flat on the ground. There is no evidence of a prepared footing as was done under the perimeter walls. Once again, in all the PWF info I've seen, they illustrate footings similar to what was used under the perimeter walls for all interior supports. Anyone viewing this as an example to be used as a pattern in a code area will, IMO, have problems getting something like this past the inspection process.

It's hard to tell from the pictures what the upper end of the tele-posts are bearing on. Is there a beam running down the building center? Do the steel posts support that beam? Are the floor joists then supported by that beam? Or is that a 2x laid flat under the joists? There appears to be a 2x laid flat, but it is not clear. There also appears to be some 2x3's (?) but I can't really tell what is there. These are details my inquisitive mind wants to know.

Once again I ask these things as questions to be considered by readers who may be using this as a pattern for a future build. And once again; I am not an engineer but these are questions I would be asking.


I believe there may be others contemplating a Permanent Wood Foundation for their projects. If there is any interest, we (my engineer friend and I) could develop a topic. Email or PM me or post a request in the IRC section.


Here is a link direct to the Southern Pine Council PWF Design and Construction Guide http://southernpine.com/downloadpdf.asp?filename=ref400.pdf


G/L to all

[MountainDon]

Now I have myself wondering what's going on with those end foundation walls. In the first image the ground at the far end does not seem to have the same pattern of crushed rock as that down the long sides. My imagination?

[new land owner]

Don

      You ask alot of great questons and I have read all the material from the southern pine council and once I saw the  way this PWF is set up I would like to do it the same way.  My thought is to set it up like this and if there seems to be any movement in the future I could put in the pad to stop movement.

        I have talked with my building inspector and he is on board with the foundation as shown in the NYS code book. 

        There is a bottom (Footer) of 2 x 8 material and the walls will be built with 2 x 6 material.

        I will go over the way this was completed with the building inspector and let you know the results.

        I plan to start in a couple of weeks.

[AdironDoc]

I'm no builder, Don, but I did ask plenty of questions. I'll ask some of the other questions you pose when I see him next week. There's a wider footing under the visible plate as you noted. It looked like a 2x10 to me. Crushed rock is evenly distributed throughout as far as I saw but shading and wetness could play a camera trick. It was raining cats and dogs and dark in the basement and my cellphone didn't do justice.

All lumber for the PWF was brought in from Utica as it had to be special .61 spec foundation grade wood, as you noted. Diagonals were put to keep walls rigid while the deck was put on above. John noted that PWF's risk movement until the inward forces are stabilized by downward load. Walls are said to be held in place by rods (extending outward?), and by several cross beams below, and by the deck above.

Inspector has been to the site twice and will need to sign off on each stage of the project before the next is started. So far so good. I'll gather much more info on my next trip up next weekend. Thanks for the "heads up". Good builder or not, it's always good to be inquisitive and let them know that you're watching what they do, such as the steel supports.

Cheers,
Doc
http://theadirondoc.blogspot.com/2011/06/summer-is-here.html

[MountainDon]

Building codes are not only complicated (and getting more so), they are evolving as well. According to some information unearthed tonight with the help of Don_P those temporary braces combined with appropriately designed pins or "soil nails" are current code. So I guess that is good news.   It might have helped to know the diagonal braces were of a temporary nature and that there is or will be, a pinning system used. As it stood I couldn't understand how it could stand. Sometimes I worry myself too much, but better safe than sorry.

Still curious about the center line supports though. Or are they something temporary as well?

[MountainDon]

References used are in Chapter 44 IRC 2009 VA. American Forest and Paper Association, PWF Design Specifications, PWF-07.  So far I can't find a free online version. However, the curious can download a copy below.

[AdironDoc]

Funny you should mention the posts, Don. I just noticed my father's 3200 sq ft home has 6 telescoping columns in his basement, turned upside down so as to render them inoperable by the homeowner. His home was built as part of a 6 year old subdivision. Are you sure telescoping posts are not up to code in every state?
http://theadirondoc.blogspot.com/2011/06/summer-is-here.html

[umtallguy]

hell the 50 or so year old house I grew up in had telescoping columns...

[new land owner]

Don

    you mentioned "soil Pins"  is that just a 2' pc of rebar?  i was thinking of pinning it every 4' or so.

[Don_P]

I believe Don is up on the mountain for a day or so, I don't want to leave you in suspense.
When Don emailed asking me to take a look at this posting I also saw the telescoping posts. I saw the differences between this PWF and the typical and then went through the standard trying to find the method he might have used. The assumption and term "soil nails" was mine based on a comment and an exception in the commentary. It is not prescriptive, if used, it would be the result of engineering. New land owner, this is not something for a DIY to design, it is outside of prescriptive code and over my head if you leave out a floor system. This was not intended to pick on Doc or to cause a rift with your builder. I had actually said I wasn't going to post to this thread. I don't like critiquing a builder's work in front of his client. We have folks here who might want to "copy cat" without having full knowledge and so there is another concern here which I think weighs heavier. So here is the proper path as I see it: If you put in a basement floor, follow the guidelines, if you don't put in a basement floor and have unbalanced fill, get an engineer. Think about the costs... use your $ towards a nice floor if at all possible.

I don't believe telescoping posts are allowed anywhere as a permanent column,  I have seen alot of them in service. Just to be clear on what I'm calling a telescoping post; This is the type where there are two tubes, one slides over the other and pins are inserted to hold them in the correct range. There is an adjustment screw on the end. These have a much lower load rating than a solid pipe column with an adjusting screw, what we call a BOCA post here. BOCA was a code authority before the ICC and this type of column has a legacy ICC-ES number. If you look on the packaging for every telescoping post I've seen they do not have an approval listing and generally state that they are not for permanent structural support.  

The codebook citation would be section R407 which for a steel column requires that it be a minimum of 3" dia schedule 40 pipe OR an approved equivalent, the approval would be an ICC-ES number.

We are required to render the adjustment screw inoperable for the final either by putting it down in concrete or by welding it.

How did I come to know this section? A building official told me that I could only use a BOCA post or a wooden column on one job. I needed a post in a length that was not readily available and had intended on having a pipe welded for that location, he was asking for an engineer. I measured the thickness of the BOCA post and the thickness of the steel pipe and tried reason, he didn't budge. That section was my relief.

This was a quick google;
http://iowainspection.com/faqs/column.html

[AdironDoc]

Don_P, I appreciate the info from you and Mountain_Don and don't take any offense at honest inquiry. Although there may not always be a single method to everything, or a code that is universal in all states, there are certainly good reasons for making sure that standards are adhered to. While licensed builders may know good practice from bad, there are always stories of cutting corners time and money wise that a homeowner may never have known. I'd rather be in the know and haven't felt anyone either "picking" on me or creating a rift between my builder and me.

The particular questions raised on this thread are excellent and deserve due consideration. Better to know about potential issues now than be sorry later. While my project will need to pass muster by the inspector at several more junctures, I'd like to know I'm getting the best possible workmanship, and building something my children and their children will enjoy. On that note, I'll be asking my builder some simple/non-confrontational questions this weekend and will post more photos and replies as available. Like you noted, we all post our projects here to give one another ideas, advice, and inspiration, not to give critiques on style, etc. Each project posted here is someone's dream, and the build thread, a pictorial representation of the steps taken to fulfill it.

Thanks to everyone for being involved, posting their photos, asking good questions, and adding to the overall experience.

Cheers,
Doc
http://theadirondoc.blogspot.com/2011/06/summer-is-here.html

[AdironDoc]

It rained heavy this weekend (what else is new?) and I hadn't the chance to meet up with the builder. I did grab some photos during a break in the rain. I like that the builder had pre-wired my rooms through the logs so wires will not be visible. That's a nice touch.

http://theadirondoc.blogspot.com/2011/06/summer-is-here.html





Wood burning stove goes here:

Up in the loft, 24 x 20. Knee wall is actually exterior wall 4 ft height.

Looking down from cathedral area from scaffolding. The swollen creek is visible behind me.

Glad I'm 100ft from the edge and around 14 ft up.

https://s234.photobucket.com/albums/ee314/glennjakobsen/June%20camp/?action=view&current=2011-06-25_12-01-19_163.mp4

[mogie01]

Love those logs!!

[archimedes]

Looking good.

Wish we could send some of that rain to the Southwest.

[AdironDoc]

Asked builder about the telescoping piers and why he was using something that's not up to code. He was taken aback and laughed, noting that code allows telescoping piers when there are no weight bearing walls above. As the cabin is 20ft wide and spans in the trusses above were designed to eliminate any need for load bearing walls or columns in first floor, most of the load falls on the exterior walls. He noted that the load on the first floor was below that value set by code mandating permanent columns. Nevertheless, he will be happy to swap them out later.   He also confirmed that there are soil anchors extending outwards and that the diagonal supports were not necessary. "Take them out if you want", he said. I think I'll leave them. They make for interesting conversation.

Squared off at the ends, the rafters join double uprights at notch and are lag bolted in.

Notched 2 x 6's with nailer for board and batten.

Wiring is, for the most part, hidden in notch above the log.

I may swap out the 5ft single centered loft window with two side by side 5's. First, I love the light and view (usually limited from a loft), and second, if I ever put a small partition wall down the center, there'll be a window in each room. Any thoughts?


At the guest cabin, we finally turned the scary loft ladder of 2x4s into a safer loft stair. Now I don't mind sleeping up top.




Doc
http://theadirondoc.blogspot.com/2011/06/summer-is-here.html

[Sassy]

The logs really give it a nice look    But then, I'm kinda partial to logs 

[Don_P]

Asked builder about the telescoping piers and why he was using something that's not up to code. He was taken aback and laughed, noting that code allows telescoping piers when there are no weight bearing walls above. As the cabin is 20ft wide and spans in the trusses above were designed to eliminate any need for load bearing walls or columns in first floor, most of the load falls on the exterior walls. He noted that the load on the first floor was below that value set by code mandating permanent columns. Nevertheless, he will be happy to swap them out later.

Did I mention not wanting to critique another builder in front of his client   One of two things will happen, either a rift or he'll have a very good explanation and I shoulda kept my mouth shut. Of the two, I'm glad it was the second. He also handled it very well, even if he's right and the client wants it, he'll change it. I just sank 2 boxes of headlock screws in a non bearing ledger for the same reason.

He's rolling right along, nice looking work!