Getting a floorplan engineered...

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

We have designed a floorplan that will best fit our needs, and we used a lot of great ideas from this site!  I especially have been following a long on numerous builds for several years on here!  We were unable to keep the size (width) as small as most of the plans here because we have 4 children and we have a large family when we have gatherings so we tried to make it small enough to afford to build and large enough the dining area can expand for those holiday dinners etc.  I think we did a good job of balancing things.  We tried to make it efficient to heat with wood (no long hallways to try to get heat down to etc).

Once we pinpoint which piece of land we will make an offer on (wavering between a couple right now).  We are now to the point we need to have these plans engineered so that we can start the permit process etc.  Do you know what we should expect for engineering?  We got a rough quote from an engineer DH works with and I wanted to compare that to maybe what else is available.  Is there anyone on this site who can engineer a plan from a detailed sketch and renderings we've drawn up?  The house is basically a 22' wide by 46' long 2 story rectangle with some wrap around porches and one bump out area in the great room about 8' deep and 15' wide......so the house is a basic T shape.

I can post pics of the floor plan if that helps.

[Native_NM]

We used a local PE for a commercial building similar to the 16x32.  His task was wind loading, sheer wall, roof and foundation loading, etc.   We used standard building materials and had the drawings already. He only had to stamp them to code. 

Total was a few thousand.  About $3500 I think.

My brother is a PE in Ca. He is doing some calcs for us in his spare time.  He charged me a case of Guiness and a bottle of Hennessy.  I lost on that deal.  He picked up his payment when he drove out last Christmas and I still don't have the calcs. 

[rick91351]

It is all over the board.  We had an engineer that was suggested to us, do a 2300 sq home single level ranch style for us and he charged $800.  The draftsman he wanted us to use charged us $1200.  (They work together a lot.)   A one and a half story ran a little more but less sq ft.  Both required extensive snow and wind load calculations.

Shop around, we found the ones with the big beautiful showy offices were not really in our price range.  The engineer we found has a small office in a old part of town - no show.  Does very little residential but times were slow and he and his draftsman friend was very interested.  I have to make a new appointment soon we have a new idea...   

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

I have been doing some research as well and found a draftsman that seems like he would do a nice job, gave me a lot of information to chew on about designs.  Also he works with an engineer that would charge $500+ to stamp them.  The design services would likely run $1600.

The structural engineer we talked to first said for a 2 story home he'd charge $2000.  not sure which way to go, if we went with the draftsman we would likely get more creative ideas on ways to do things and more of a working relationship.  If we went with the engineer I have a feeling it would be pretty cut and dry and not a lot of suggestions or conversation over how to design it.  Does that make sense?

I sent the draftsman my sketch so he could get a better feel for price and get back to me. 

[suburbancowboy]

I would go with an engineer that is local to where you are building.  Let me tell you a story.  When I started I was going to build a 16X36.  So I take my plans to an engineer close to where I work.  We talk about my sketches and he says no problem and he will have them complete in 2 weeks.  I leave a 300 dollar deposit and am feeling good that things have started.  Two weeks later I pick up the plans and pay the rest of the 1200 dollars.  The following week I take the plans to the building inspector in the county that I am going to build in and they say your cabin doesn't meet county codes. Has to be a minimum of 20 feet wide, doesn't meet fire restrictions, yada, yada, yada.  Well at this point I am steaming mad.  That was a 200 mile round trip for nothing.  I go back to the engineer and say "didn't you know about the codes down there?"(adjoining country)  He says sorry and will make things right.  So I go over the changes that the inspector told me about.  The engineer makes the changes and I email them to the building inspector.  He says close but no cigar.  At this point I am not to fond of building inspectors.  So I get the building inspector and the engineer on the phone together and tell them to work it out.  They talk on the phone off and on for a few days.  After another week and an additional 500 dollars, I finally have some plans that the engineer would buy off on.

The moral of the story is, if the county requirements are strict then use a local engineer and save yourself some time and money.  By the way it took so long to get the building permit that I ended up running out of time for the summer and had to put off the building of the cabin til the next spring.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

That is a VERY good point, thank you for pointing that out to me.  The draftsman was in another county from us!  Not sure how different the codes are from county to county here but it is a potential headache.  That makes it easier to decide between the two options now.

I am starting to get excited about the possibility of this all becoming realized!  We are still a ways off and still trying to decide how much we want to save up first before we get started.  We are huge Dave Ramsey Total Money Makeover fans and credit his plan for getting us into the position we are into now financially to evenbe considering this project.  It is exciting to think about all the options and that a beautiful house may be in our future.

We are still trying to decide on which land to go for, here are our options:
2.5 acres with a shared well (cheap to hook into for now, we'd want to drill our own well later though) the property has been for sale for 3 yars now and we think we could get a really good deal.  If we can't we'd explore other options.

2 acres with city water available and natural gas available.  Flat, good soil, and more rural feel to the land, houses are further apart than the first one.

4 acres with water rights but (we'd need to drill a well) cost is more and there are noise and land use covenants that we aren't sure we could abide by. lol

We are still looking for more options to consider.

[Squirl]

If you have not purchased the land yet, I would hold off.  Things can change based on the property. i.e. Window size/placement, Foundation type, etc...  I had to make revisions to my plans based on properties.

[UK4X4]

Beware - !

I went to an engineer for a signed off foundation - and for him to check my calculations on beams - and add in the columns

I gave him detailed autocad dwgs

after 6 weeks

He sent me a PDF of hand drawn calcs and some computer beam calc printouts

he never completed anything on the foundation design
he copied and pasted my dwgs onto his header and wants to charge 500usd per dwg for drafting services !

Total cost - well his words were worst case- but actually what he meant to say min case.

He charged me 4K and all I got was some PDF'sof my own work

I did pay him 3K for the engineering - which he did complete.

and I added in the changes to my own dwgs

presently getting a e-mail a day from the idiot who's now added "project management"

well his 2 months costme this years build and will be scheduled for next year now due to the delays.

He came recomended.......which is the worst thing

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Sounds scary!

Turns out building codes are the same for the whole state (OR) so county shouldn't matter.  The draftsman said it was a really simple plan (after I sent him my sketches) and that the only area that would need to be signed off on would be the taller walls in the great room (everything else was uniform building practices, whatever that means).  So that should help make it cheaper than a more complicated design.  I will try to keep you posted, I so appreciate all the feedback so far.

Question:  If we do this as an owner-builder thing, even though our home would be a little over 2000 square feet, can we still share our build on the owner-builder forum even if our plans aren't from this site?  We got ideas from here and inspiration and we'd love to "give back" in a sense as I know I LOVE picture updates and other people's process too.  Would we be welcome to share here or is there a criteria that we have to buy plans to be able to share here?

[new land owner]

I my area as long as the building is less than 1500 sq ft no enginered stamp is needed.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Oh and as far as when to have it engineered we will definately be waiting until we have the land and know just how we want to position the house before we send them to be engineered.  We might want to change a few things like eve length or something to make the home more passive solar in function if possible or mirror imaging the plan in case the view is better one way or another. 

Right now I was simply trying to get a budget together for all those preliminary items on the planning side, I have the house fairly well priced out to the best of my knowledge for materials and it looks like we will be around $80,000 with a 20% contingency of $16,000 bringing us to 96,000 for the structure (which includes septic, water line, foundation, landscaping, etc)  We plan to do most the work ourselves and sub out very little.  We know for sure from past experiences with our current home (remodeled top to bottom inside and out, including moving walls and replacing subfloors in some areas) that we would really like to NOT do drywall.  If we have to we will but we can't imagine doing more than a room at a time of that stuff!  We did it all here and we think it turned out nice but the mess and the hassle, we saw some professional drywallers do a friends project and they were in and out in a day textured and everything because they use that accelerated mud that dries fast and it was such a nice job!  Anyway that we know we'd like to sub out along with HVAC systems.  Everything else I feel we can learn in time to do ourselves.  Evan wiring (we did that here too) we can figure out in time.  Might have to hire an electrician to do a skematic for us as a last resort.  My cousin is an electrician so we might be able to work something out if we get into trouble.

I have put a lot of thought into this process, read a lot of books, did a lot of figures, and hours and hours of online research and price checking to even get the idea we have now for costs.  I tried to add at least 10% to materials I thought we'd need AND 10% to the price I figured it at, then at the end I added a stright 20% over that whole amount.  (There will be things I forgot to even think of) but I did figure in some for fasteners, hurricane straps, joist hangers, nails, screws, glues, staples etc).  We are really having fun with this process of planning and dreaming too.

I can post my estimates so far and you guys can tell me if I am crazy on m numbers if you want.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Here is my rough estimate for the house we have in mind~
Lumber~
$23,940 (includes 2x6 exterior walls, 2x4 interior walls studs, sill boards and top plates, subfloor, sheeting exterior, roof sheeting, roofing, fiber cement siding, exterior doors, soffit vents, soffits, trim for windows and doors exterior, tyvek, trusses, nails, screws, joists, windows etc)  Basically this amount gets the structure dried in (but not painted yet)

$4,000 plumbing (includes pex piping, manifold for pex, tankless water heater, fittings, shower surround, sinks, 2 toilets, deep soaking tub, faucets, tub filler faucets, ABS sewer pipe, venting etc)

$5000 Electrical (need to spend more time on this, this is more of a guestimate) Includes electrical panel, electrician to hook up service ($1800), gang boxes, switch boxes, breakers, dimmers, covers, plug ins, light fixtures, etc)

$8,810 Insulation and Sheetrock crew this includes ceiling R-30, Walls R-19, Floor R-25, foam sill insulation, staples, etc.  As well as sheetrock (I read somewhere that the supplies are approx 25 cents per square surface foot to be sheetrocked and to possibly figure 50 cents per square foot (which would be .50 x 5344sq ft surface area= $2672) for it to be hired done.  I wasn't sure so I tacked on double that amount.  If it is more than $5000 for someone to do it we will tackle it ourselves (ugh).

$12,000 HVAC this was something I called several places locally for a ballpark figure.....these were all over the place!!!  We got numbers from $18,000 for JUST SUPPLIES to $$7,000 installed for the same size unit!  So we went middle road at $12,000 Which includes woodstove.

$8925 Cabinets which includes Kraftmaid cabinets for kitchen, two bathrooms, and utility as well as countertops (laminate)

$4,677 Flooring for the middle of the road, not the cheapest flooring but middle of the road.  We plan to use allure floring from home deptot in wet areas and some kind of wood look (like what they use in Walmart and Safeway that looks like wide wood planks (we have 4 kids, a husband that works construction and a dog we need industrial strength and we'll add some nice area rugs with padding for warmth and sound absorption.

$1930 interior doors this inlcudes solid wood doors in the lower level open to main living areas and hollow core doors upstairs for bedrooms and closets mostly.  This number also includes all interior window and door trims.

$4,000 for tools this includes a enclosed cargo trailer to lock up our tools in when we aren't at the job site, scaffolding, nail guns, hammers, knee pads, utility knives and LOTS of blades, mitre saw, portable table saw, cordless curcular saw (dewalt), sawzall, skwork bench/saw horses 2 sets, ladders, paint tools, books and videos, portable water tank, air compressor.  We already have a table saw, smaller air compressor, generator, 2 ladders, speed square, square, knee ads, hammer, etc.but we might need to replace these things during the job so we planned for a new purchase in case we neede d it or another tool we didn't forsee.

$5,550 Landscaping, decks, an porches.  (we have plans for a lot of blueberry bushes, raspberriers, fruit trees, landscaping plants (although we plant to do a freinds and family plant swap our first spring in the house as a way to get some family favorite plants starts.  I think that would help save a LOT of money on plants and give us a nice selction with great memories attached!)

Grand total:
$78,832 tack on an additional 20% and we are at=$94,598

[rwanders]

I'm not an official spokesman for this site but, I and many others you will find here, have built with our own plans or even none at all.

I built from reams of sketches and scale drawings I did myself over many late hours. Fortunately, I built in an area without building inspections or departments. I did, however, make sure I always met minimum codes and usually exceeded them. Minimums can be deceiving----in many cases you would be unhappy with their results. Specifically, the minimums around joists and subfloors often give you unwanted trampolines.

Couple of pet concerns of mine are hallways, I avoid them as much as I can as space wasters but, I do like pocket doors a lot as space savers for smaller rooms like bathrooms or laundry rooms.

I agree, the planning process is fun and builds really great anticipations. You sound like you are doing a very thorough job.

p.s. One thing I didn't think of till later was that I have a disabled mother in law and I realized that if she ever fell in the little toilet she would usually use we would be hard put to open the door----had to take out door and make it so it would swing out instead of in.

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Here are the very basic sketches (I have larger more detailed ones but I couldn't fit those on the scanner).

Here are the renderings of the outside...


First floor....


2nd floor...

[rick91351]

I congratulate you being a Ramsey fan, we are as well.  So I toss out a "Better than I deserve!"  to you all.  

Me thinks really you might be putting the cart before the horse.  Maybe not.  Going back I read you are ready maybe to make an offer on a piece property.  You say from first post.  (wavering between a couple right now.)  I think your best interest you really need to get that settled before going any further.  Local engineering requirements and such change location to location.  Maybe not building codes but requirements do.    

Are all the properties in close proximity?  Will all be requiring the same engineering.  Can you get that in writing?  I see you are from eastern Oregon so say structure being engineered for Willowa County is not going to be the same all over Willowa County, Lake County, nor Baker County.  It might be for Malheur County being a primarily valley county.  Snow loads, frost depths, wind loads, and systemic requirements can very greatly by location with in a county.

Elmore County in Idaho is very normal for valley locations.  Go in to the mountains where we own property and we have some very high load values.  130+ pound snow loads, wind loads become very high, frost depth sort of make you wonder if maybe a basement might be the best idea.  After all you are almost half way there.                    

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Agreed.  Like I said the reason for the talk with the draftsman was just to talk price so we know what to budget for the planning etc.  Where the draftsman is from La Grande and us is very similar in snow loads/wind etc so I am not worried about that.  We aren't having the plan engineered until we know where we want to place the house on the land we have already bought.  So don't worry, we'll try not to get ahead of ourselves there.  We figure we are still about  9 months at the earliest to start building (early next spring?)  We want to save up more cash and also get some things in order like buying a enclosed cargo trailer for tools and supplies during the build (and after to haul all out camping gear) and keeping an eye out for various used tools on Craigslist as well.  We expect to be gathering supplies like used scaffolding, air compressors etc during that time leading up to the build.  Today I found cabinet doors for $7 each that we could make cabinet frames for out of oak faced plywood and save at least 75% on our cabinets for the entire house is we wanted to go that route (we are still thinking)!  Anyway we are trying not to get in a hurry and make a wrong move.  Dave says.... "It is human nature to want it now, but it is also a sign of immaturity."  We are trying to remember that. 

So what I have gained from talking with this draftsman is that we might not have to have an engineer stamp it if it meets standard building practices and that it will likely cost $2,000 for it to be printed up and designed for building from.  Then add $3000 for permits and we should be close for design and permits.  That gives me one more piece to the puzzle to plug in.

[Danfish]

Great job laying out your design and budget beforehand...too many wait until construction drawings are done and find out they cannot afford to build!  Your proposed project is similar in size and scope to the one I currently have under construction, so my comments on drafting and engineering will get you in the ballpark.

As stated by others, until you own a building site, the requirements of the "local" building department remain an unknown factor.  Local building departments have their own little quirks and once you know who you must deal with, get real close to them.  It pays to pick their brains on who provides the best plan check drawings and engineers they see with the best approach.  Find some local oldtime contractors and ask who they recommend.  You want someone with experience working with local building department, the guy or gal in some other jurisdiction may not be up to speed.

Originally I worked with an architect and the quote from his structural engineer was $10,000...gasp!  After I fired the architect and did the design and drawings on my own CAD system, my investigation turned up a local draftsman who worked closely with a local engineer.  Both came highly recommended by the local building department and contractors.  Since 80 percent of the construction drawings were complete by this time I hired the local draftsman to review my drawings and prepare the framing plans, wildland-urban interface and energy calculation sheets.  The draftsman also interfaced with the engineer.  Cost of the draftsman was $3,000.  The engieering cost were $2,500.  The three of us worked together to prepare the permit submittal and as a result we were approved within 30 days.

[rick91351]

Hey are you guys, the ones a year or two ago that was looking at the property in the Blues?  It was part of the reservation or surrounded by the reservation.  Up around Meacham or off Emigrant Road.  You had questions about snow removal, right?       

[Thoughts-from-Jules]

Yes, that is us!  We've been trying to be patient and find the right land.  We have been all over the map in what we were willing to go with (off grid) to now realizing we'd want to be closer to the stores etc with fuel prices the way they are!  Glad we didn't go with that land with the last couple winters up there!

We've been wanting to do this build for at least 5 years but each time reality kicks in and we decide to keep savings more money!  Not a bad idea in any case huh?  We enjoy our house now but don't enjoy living right in town at all (even in a small town, I am a country girl).

[rick91351]

I have wondered what happened to you guys!  Good to hear from you. 

[h0rizon]

I'd be careful about the shared well on that one property you were looking at.  Is it on the property itself or on the neighbors? If on theirs you may have to deal with deeded right-of-ways for installing lines.  Then you have to be concerned about the potential of running the well dry if it's only been used by one household.

With the municipal water, don't forget to factor in permits and additional code regs for the hookups.

For your tools, have you looked into building a tool shed on the property first instead of purchasing a trailer?

Very nice work so far!  I see alot of thought has been put into this.

Since your still looking at land, if you haven't already pick up a copy of "Finding your place in the country".  I've read through it and it has provided excellent information for my land search.