Okanogan 14x24 by a lurker :)

[OlJarhead]

Got a report from my sons that they added a layer of insualtion to the pony wall that seperates the crawl space under the cabin (which is open) and the new composter room.  My son thought since it was coldest there the added insulation would make a difference and it did.  The area that was in the 20's today and rose to 30 was up to 45 when he called me and told me the results of their efforts.  So, if this sollution makes the difference then at least the lines should thaw out.  Specially when we get the air moving in there with some fans.

Next they tackled the roof of the wood shed and last report was they were going to get the roofing on after lunch

I can't say how glad I am there are here doing the work for me!

I know sometimes kids can frustrate us parents but most of the time they make us proud!  And this is definately one of those many times

Sounds like I'll be arriving at the cabin around dinner time with it warm and dinner cooking -- ya, it's going to be a nice evening me thinks

[OlJarhead]

-12 in the valley and -5 here at the cabin.  The water is still frozen but at least we have some heat tape on the pipe in the back room so hopefully it will thaw out.  We worked on the insulation under the cabin and boxed in the p-trap and added heat tape to it too.  With luck we'll have running water soon but I'm not holding my breath!  The temps are just TOO cold.

We added two small 12v fans in the composter room n hopes of moving the air around a bit but they are pretty small (about 3") so I'm going to look for something a little bigger that should do a better job of moving the air around.

Burned a slash pile today and was surprised how fast it went up!  I guess it's so cold it dried everything out so it was like tinder.  Good thing I have a tractor to push it around and control it better.  It's still a lot of hot coals and will likely burn all night but it is contained so I'm not worried about it.

Franky I'm more worried about the cold!

I added some anti-gel treatment to the tractor fuel as it was REALLY hard to start today (when it was about 14 degrees out.

I'm now hoping to fix some insulation inside the cabin tomorrow so it will hold the heat better specially when I am not hear. 

I have to say though, the cold is really killing the propane!  I sure hope it starts to warm up soon!  It's supposed to get up to a low of 19 on Wednesday so that would be good because I could possibly thaw out the pipes and keep them thawed out then.  We'll have to see.

[Frank W]

I'm on page 35. Very interesting   Can't wait to read the rest of the thread.

[OlJarhead]

Thanks Frank, it's been an adventure!

~~~~
Yesterday at around 6:15pm it was -5 on the trucks thermometer....it was 0 on the cabin window thermometer....at about 10:30pm it was -5 on the cabin window thermometer.....which means, by deductive reasoning, it may have been -10F outside which wouldn't surprise me because it was -12 down in the valley at 6pm.

The back room was dropping to 32 near the cabin wall about 4 feet off the floor (which means it was below freezing where the water pipe comes through the floor) and I pretty much figured I'd have to wait for warmer weather before I'd have a chance to get running water back.  But this weekend is supposed to be warmer (19 at night) so perhaps I can get the proper jet for the heater (it needs a different one because of the altitude) and an efficient fan to move the air around in there.  Then with heat trace (and some luck) I'll get the pipes thawed and have running water again.  Meanwhile, I'll go down south to see my wife this week and will get a shower then  

Noticed the temp on the window is now reading +3 and the back room is up to 44 degrees so at least there is that and quite possibly we'll see it rise into the 50's again today as the day warms up.  Meanwhile, I'll work on insulation inside the cabin to continue to improve it.

On a side note my sinuses are killing me!  The cold has made the air VERY dry and despite putting a pot of water on the stove to add some moisture back into the air it's still only around 25% humidity!

[OlJarhead]

I can't help thinking, as a large pot of water sits steaming on the woodstove, that in some ways I'm living a lot like they did long ago. Sure I have a truck outside and a job but in this modern world (ok I have internet etc too) to be without running water is almost unheard of! Yet, I'm not worried! I'm clean shaving, have washed hair and took a bath of sorts

You see, long ago when I was just a teen I often dreamed of living in the woods but never really imagined I'd do it some day. Certainly not now! So after a lifetime of wondering what it would have been like here I am in the middle of nowhere with a shotgun by my bed, a .45 near my chair and no neighbours within 3/4's of a mile (unless you consider the critters neighbours). And you know what? It aint half bad

I will however admit that I miss my wife a LOT and this WILL NOT be my life forever, not even close! I do, after all, prefer company, time with my family and modern conveniences etc but for now, I'm enjoying living he way few get to do anymore.

So, while you read about my lack of running water and worried about power etc bear in mind that I'm not grumbling! Not at all, in fact I'm enjoying the challenge and living 'the life' right now Of course, I also get to go see my wife and have some modern conveniences every week or two and without that 'probably go crazy! LOL but for now, I'm relaxing by a warm fire, savouring a strong bourbon and contemplating an early night because, well, that's what you do when you live in the woods and the woodshed is nearly full, the fire is hot, the cabin is warm and you can't really go out and get more done.

[rick91351]

A crackling wood stove and full wood shed.  Some vittles stored and a few good books and snuggled down for the winter evening.  Things could be worse....   

[Frank W]

I can't help thinking, as a large pot of water sits steaming on the woodstove, that in some ways I'm living a lot like they did long ago. Sure I have a truck outside and a job but in this modern world (ok I have internet etc too) to be without running water is almost unheard of! Yet, I'm not worried! I'm clean shaving, have washed hair and took a bath of sorts

You see, long ago when I was just a teen I often dreamed of living in the woods but never really imagined I'd do it some day. Certainly not now! So after a lifetime of wondering what it would have been like here I am in the middle of nowhere with a shotgun by my bed, a .45 near my chair and no neighbours within 3/4's of a mile (unless you consider the critters neighbours). And you know what? It aint half bad

I will however admit that I miss my wife a LOT and this WILL NOT be my life forever, not even close! I do, after all, prefer company, time with my family and modern conveniences etc but for now, I'm enjoying living he way few get to do anymore.

So, while you read about my lack of running water and worried about power etc bear in mind that I'm not grumbling! Not at all, in fact I'm enjoying the challenge and living 'the life' right now Of course, I also get to go see my wife and have some modern conveniences every week or two and without that 'probably go crazy! LOL but for now, I'm relaxing by a warm fire, savouring a strong bourbon and contemplating an early night because, well, that's what you do when you live in the woods and the woodshed is nearly full, the fire is hot, the cabin is warm and you can't really go out and get more done.
[/quote OJH, I'm living in a 12x24 manufactured cabin. I do have a drilled well but only outside. We are in the process of building the 20x34 cottage. In the mean time, 288 sq ft, a home made sprayer shower, and cooking on a grill or hot eye will have to do and I love it.
Your cabin has made quite a impact on me. LOL
I'm think of buying a wood mizer LT10.
BTW, we have a eccotemp fvi12 water heater but I haven't had time to hook it up yet. Post more pics!

[troy]

Eric,

You probably already know this, but you might want to talk to your distributor about some options to get enough evaporation through the winter months.  A second tank might be in order, or possibly burying the tank, or even burying two tanks.  LP can only evaporate so much so fast, depending entirely on temperature and surface area.  If your distributor knows the business, they'll know what you need to get through the winter.

Good luck!

[OlJarhead]

Eric,

You probably already know this, but you might want to talk to your distributor about some options to get enough evaporation through the winter months.  A second tank might be in order, or possibly burying the tank, or even burying two tanks.  LP can only evaporate so much so fast, depending entirely on temperature and surface area.  If your distributor knows the business, they'll know what you need to get through the winter.

Good luck!

Unfortunately the biggest issue (besides $$$) was that I really had no idea how much I'd run the 8000BTU heater.  So, even with a room that has R30 walls and an R32 roof the 32" of concrete walls (filled) with R10 on the outside is just too hard to keep warm.  At least when there is no door (R10 foam stuffed in the opened with backer boards to hold it in place and OSB pinned to the outside with screws and then various coverings on the entrance space acts as a door for now) and when one corner was not backfilled in time leaving the R10 exposed for about 4 feet.

Furthermore, I hadn't really considered the cold down draft from the 4" vent stack and 2" vent stack which despite one fan in the 4" stack operating 24x7 (until it quit recently) seem to really have an effect.  Add in the 3" stack for the heater and, well, the floor is COLD.  latest room temp was 68 at the highest and 49 at lowest but that's 4' off the ground.  I have to do some more work in there to keep the floor from freezing.

[OlJarhead]

http://www.amazon.com/Cooler-Master-MegaFlow-200-Computer/dp/B008G3OLRQ/ref=sr_1_2/175-7720524-6667726?s=pc&ie=UTF8&qid=1386742861&sr=1-2&keywords=12v+fan
I'm seriously thinking of adding two of these to the back room instead of the two 90mm fans I have in there....I'm not sure they move enough air though and am still looking for some options...

[OlJarhead]

Hi All!

I'm back after a 3 week absence from the cabin (and somewhat from the internet - though by choice) and can report that we only have 2-3 inches of snow (so getting here was easy).  It's snowing now though so perhaps I'll have more to plow soon

My truck battery had died so I couldn't bring it from the garage (I leave it in the garage at work when I leave for business which I did three weeks ago -- rather conveniently since business was by my home ) and since my 'jump box' (a heap Chinese one) didn't work to get it started I just repacked my work rig and headed to the cabin hoping I wouldn't need chains since I don't have any on my work rig (just studded snowies).

Arriving here I found that my inverter sleep mode didn't wake up to charge the generator battery and while it was at 13v it wasn't strong enough to get the genset running right away.  I had to wait for the inverter power to charge it enough to crank the generator long enough to both start and start providing power.  It would fire and then shut down because the battery dropped to a low voltage and give me an insufficient voltage alarm.

Once the gen was running though, all was good   I had already cranked up the backup heater (just left both heaters with pilots on) and the wood stove so getting the temp in the cabin up was a synch   In no time (ok a couple hours anyway) it was 60 degrees and comfy.

THe back room temp rose to above 40 degrees at the floor too   THis was very nice as it meant my newly heat taped water line would thaw! 

I ran the generator for 5 hours and gave the batteries a good charge, then set the auto start to 24v and 5 hours knowing it would come on in the AM because the heat tape was on and draws a fair amount of energy.  I went to bed reading a good book and stoking the fire throughout the night (this is always a first night routine as I do not run the back up (vent free) heater when I'm in the cabin unless in an emergency or just when heating on arrival as the door is always opening and closing so no worries about it.  So, with the back up heater off and a still warming cabin I get up every two hours to stoke the stove.  Usually by late morning (now) the cabin is above 70 which it is

The snow is coming down harder now.

This morning I went out and turned on the water and grabbed some more wood.  I'd had the main valve off while I was gone.

I have running water!  Though I also have a broken pipe (I think inside the instant on hot water heater   However, it wasn't a real expensive one ($200 vs $700) so replacing it is doable.  I'm just thankful the pipes aren't frozen under the ground or worse!  Now I have to put a plug in the water line to the hotwater heater so I can turn the water on and not get a shower, then I'll have running water again and can at least heat water on the wood stove etc.  Next I'll gert a 3/4" water valve to install on the main going to the hot water heater so I can turn the water off to it when needed (I had one before but removed it when I switched from 1/2" pex to 3/4" pex.

I'll have to order a replacement hot water heater but in theory should have hot running water within a week or ten days.  Meanwhile I'll start to dump extra snow from plowing, over the water line by the cabin to add some insulation there and I'll continue to work on the various things that need doing to better survive the winter

All in all I'm pretty happy though because it's a LOT easier (and cheaper) to replace the hot water heater then to dig up the ground and replace split pipes!  Not to mention there won't be ANY digging until the spring thaw since the ground is now hard as concrete

[OlJarhead]

While the place is looking pretty Wintry it's actually kind of warm being at or slightly above freezing at the warmest part of the the day   Which is more normal for this area this time of year.  Slightly above freezing during the warmest part of the day and into the teens at night which means lots of ice after things start to melt and the reason one needs heavy duty chains to get here unless some guy with a tractor keeps the road open



I fired up the mill an warmed it up and also removed the frozen water lube bottle and thawed it out.


I'm hoping to get back to milling soon (maybe Wednesday to ring in the new year) and this is maybe 1/3 of the logs I have to mill.  The rest have yet to be bucked up and hauled to the landing which is ok since I am planning on re-arranging things a little so I can use the tractor to do all the log loading.


By far my biggest concern is the setting on this tank.  At 32 degrees it's reading just above 60% and it's only the end of December.  I have two more months of 'hard winter' ahead of me and I've used about 25% of the tank in just over two months with only one of them being 'hard winter'.  My hope is that the sub zero weather won't be back and I'll not drop the tank to 40% before the spring when I can get a truck in here to fill i back up.  I believe I'll need another 100 gallons to make it through to the fall.

I've also noticed that the power bank is not holding long enough Maybe because it was Sunday and I had the inverter on all day along with the radio, fridge at at times lights and modem etc etc.  I did a lot of reading but no TV watching.  Still, I'd run the generator in the morning and in under 24 hours it was back on again (it's running now).  My hope is that with the inverter in sleep mode (which won't be an issue since the fridge will fire it up periodically throughout the day) the power will be well enough charged via the gen and the sun today that it won't come on when I'm back tonight after work and won't come on in the morning.  I need it to run no more then every other day (that's what I budgeted).

Ahhh well, cabin life eh?

[rick91351]

OJ I feel your pain..... You might want to form a battle plan now just in case it is a long winter.

You might ask about rental of a couple 100 pound tanks just in case.   Then also find out about a regulator and a automatic switch over valve between the two 100 pound tanks like on an RV.  I think that is where I would go to an RV place repair place.  Or check with you gas jobber.   Then when one empties it will show red and automatically swap over to the full one.  Flip the selector valve to the full tank and disconnect the empty and take it to work with you for a refill.   

My concern is when they put the fifthwheel on the large 500 gallon tank they sat a regulator for that tank and disconnected RV regulator.  I can do the same just have to be ready to crawl under and unhook and reconnect to the smaller bottles.  The 100 pound tank will run the skirted fifthwheel for a week in single digit weather to high minus.  That is furnace, water heater and  stove.  The refrigerator / freezer is set to electric when available.  Being on grid we do supplement the RV heat with an electric EdenPure type heater and one of those small sealed oil units in the sleeping area as well.  (I really don't know what they are called)  They sort of look like a steam heat register only puny.     We like a cool sleeping quarters but when it is zero out side the nose on one of these can get pretty cold....

[OlJarhead]

Hmmmm I do have two 100lb tanks (20 gallons each) that I could use but I'd need a regulator of some kind for them.  I guess I could ask FerralGas if they have a regulator that would work.  I would probably be able to just disconnect the 500 gallon tank and swap over to the 20 gallon tanks in an emergency.

The issue I see is that if I actually used 10% of the 500 gallon tank in one cold week (or a little longer) then two 20 gallon tanks won't last me very long! 

[rick91351]

There is another way out and that is talk to your propane jobber.  I think you can legally haul a 150 gallon full if placards are displayed.  You would have to work over your road and make sure you could make it of course with the pick up and trailer with a 150 loaded on it.   

About the hundred pounders I would talk to an RV parts place about the regulator and switch valve.  Yes you might have to shuttle them a lot but at least you would have gas......  Stay away for the big name RV dealers and repair places unless you are just comparing prices.  I have found them to be stupid expensive. 

[OlJarhead]

http://virtualmark.net/wx/pressure.htm
Found this chart and it makes me wonder if my 60% at 32 degrees doesn't mean I have a LOT more propane then I think I do???  According to the chart the LPG at 60% will be 100psig while at 32 it will be 55psig which, if the guage is really reading PSI and not %of fill then showing 60% may well be inline with a pretty full tank.

When it was filled I think it was overfull as it showed 85% and it was a cold day.  I was told it would only be filled to 80% which it may have been when he arrived to fill it but when I arrived later (and possibly warmer) it was at 85%....so, if the temp drops well below freezing the % of fill should also drop if I understand how propane reacts to the cold and how the guage reacts to cold propane.

Perhaps reading 60% in 32 degree weather isn't an issue...or perhaps I'm full of it! lol

[OlJarhead]

http://www.ehow.com/about_6339059_cold-propane-tank-level-gauge_.html
According to this (I have no idea how valid it is but my research suggests it is correct) my guage will read lower at 32F then when at 60F so, regaurdless of how much lower that might be I can extrapolate that I more then likely have more then 60% remaining in the tank which amounts to about 300 gallons of propane (so I'd have more than 300 gallons remaining of the approximately 450 gallons I had when it read 85%).

I was told by Ferrallgas (my supplier) that I can run the tank dry if I needed to so not to worry about that (they want you to call them with a two week supply to give them time to get there so they ask you call around 30% remaining).

So, if in fact I've used about 100 gallons since it was installed (October sometime -- I need to go back and check) and if the cold is what has the tank showing as low as it is rather then use, then I at least have 300 gallons which SHOULD last me about 3 times as long as I've had already.  Basically I should have 6 months of propane in the tank which should see me through to  the summer (and likely well beyond).

My guess is I have little to worry about but it's just a guess...barely even a SWAG....

[rick91351]

I was sort of using our area as a gauge.  When the snow starts they lock themselves out of this this area.  In fact the driver was surprised they sent him up here to fill our tank a couple weeks ago.  They did send him around and top off people tanks though while he was here.     

[OlJarhead]

It's like that here too, at least from now until March.

I can clear the road for them but the super steep grades and tight turns are too much for a bobtail.  Heck, even in the summer they don't like driving to my place! lol

[flyingvan]

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/general-homesteading-forums/homesteading-questions/111888-quick-question-about-effects-temperature-propane-level-tank.html

   Good discussion on this topic.   The ehow article you linked mis-worded one thing, saying 'the gas will contract as it gets colder'...I think the author meant the liquid, not the gas.  The vapor state area expands as the liquid layer contracts.  The first conversion chart you linked to doesn't really matter---your gauge doesn't work off of pressure, just liquid level.  It does illustrate two things, though---the pressure in a tank will vary wildly, and when you get down around -44F propane won't vaporize anymore.  The rate of vaporization will depend on the surface area of the liquid in the tank, the temperature, and the pressure.  You drop the pressure whenever you use some propane, so it boils off a bit to equalize again.  When it boils off, the temperature drops a little too---which is why you can sometimes 'see' the level of the liquid by the condensation on the tank if it's in use.  If the tank is horizontal, and down to about 10%, and really cold out, sometimes pilots start going out.  The assumption is there isn't enough pressure, but really there just isn't enough surface area at that temperature to maintain demand.   (Not to go too Cliff Claven here, but this is also why you can't run a big on demand water heater on a little propane tank.  THe little tank won't have enough liquid surface area to keep up with demand)
    An interesting point in the linked discussion is that the tank itself expands and contracts also
with temperature changes, so a chart showing propane's expansion/contraction by temperature won't tell the whole story.  Maybe you need to mount your tank on a scale and just go by weight.

An optimist sees the glass as half full.
A pessimist sees the glass as half empty.
Really, the glass is completely full---half of it in a liquid state and half in a vapor state

[OlJarhead]

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

I think I've solved one nagging problem with my back room:  the small heater in there was trying to heat up the whole cabin through the 16x16 'return air' style vent I installed to allow cabin heat to get back into the room.

I suspected this might be the case as the heaters thermostat was cranked all the way up but it just ran and ran and ran.  The room at floor level was stabilized at 44F this evening (that is where the remote sensor for my thermometer was so I could see what the temp was at the bottom of the composter and the water main line coming into the room) and I began to suspect that its setting was higher then needed but that for some reason it just wasn't getting there.  My suspicion was that the heater was set to a temp that it couldn't reach with the cabin sitting at 60-70 degrees and allowing the hot air near the roof of the room to enter the cabin to help warm it -- the air vent was at the ceiling of the room (near enough) but at waist high in the bathroom.

So, on a whim to see what would happen I put some R10 foam insulation in the vent and plugged it up.  The temp at floor level jumped from 44 to 46F in minutes!

It's currently at 46 and indicating that it is rising (which it may or may not because it indicates that until the temp either stabilizes for a while or begins to drop.

So, with fingers crossed I wait to see what happens and hope that the heater can finally shut down once it reaches the temp it wants to get to and then MAYBE it won't run that often afterwards.  If this is the case then I can be assured I have enough propane to last much longer!

[OlJarhead]

The temp at the floor in the back room is now 54!!!   

I will turn the heat DOWN tomorrow when I have a chance to open the room and then I'll keep and eye on it and see how it does.  Amazing how something so small can make such a difference!

One of the reasons I had that vent open was my thinking that I wanted the room to be 50-55F and the cabin was 60-70 which is warmer so the warmth in the cabin would help the room but I wasn't taking into account the rise of heat to the ceiling of the back room and then out into the cabin.

Funny thing, the cabin is 71F right now and maintaining nicely also

[considerations]

"Funny thing, the cabin is 71F right now"
That has got to be a relief! I know I start to tense up if the place gets below 55. Bundling up just makes me claustrophobic. Think Pillsbury Doughboy with bug eyes.

[UperJoe]

Come on ya'll - it was -19F and wind chills of -57 and I just pulled out my winter coat
before that it was a long  sleeved tee under a sweatshirt under a wind shell and a lightweight vest on it all. Gloves came out last week and ol' baldy cheated and tossed on a stocking cap 2 weeks ago.
It's only cold - I can deal with cold. Heat and humidity - no way no how

[OlJarhead]

Come on ya'll - it was -19F and wind chills of -57 and I just pulled out my winter coat
before that it was a long  sleeved tee under a sweatshirt under a wind shell and a lightweight vest on it all. Gloves came out last week and ol' baldy cheated and tossed on a stocking cap 2 weeks ago.
It's only cold - I can deal with cold. Heat and humidity - no way no how

I was that way when I was young and living in the North.  Never thought anything of riding a snowmobile in -40.  It was just fun!  but after decades in warm climates 10F and lower is COLD to me! lol....and we were down to -12F.

But, regardless of what we think of as cold, not having running water or a indoor toilet can be a bear to handle when also having to work for a living in an environment where shaving and showering and wearing clean presentable clothes is important! lol