Church House in Christiansburg, VA

[devildog]

I actually tried posting this before. I got tired, closed my computer thinking I can pick it up and finish later. I lost everything. So Im going to just make smaller post when I get the chance. Its actually the second time Ive  done this.

This is the church we purchased. $54,900

The layout

The approved plan

the back

The right side (wood) will be torn down except the roof. It was an eating area before(carport). They had framed it in to make a couple of classrooms. but there is no over or under ventilation nor electric in these rooms. and the best part is the rooms are not attached to the bricks. about a 6" gap in between.
.

Its completely gutted except one bathroom. Im in the process,with the help of some friends I go to church with, of putting on anew roof. And becaus of a mistake the building dept. made, I have 3 new 45' infiltrator lines and $2000 less dollars in my pocket. But we now have a 3 br septic system


edit: I added a space before VA in the title; it bothered me...    MtnDon

[Redoverfarm]

  project devildog.  Lost track of you since Hillsville.  Apparently you have found employment.  Do you still have your property that you had started.  What road fronts the church just in case I pass through there.  I went through Hillsville last spring but didn't happen to take your info with me to look you up.  Nice to have you back. 

[devildog]

Im on here almost daily. Just rarely feel like I have something to add.
I still own my property in hillsville. and always trying to figure out what to do with it. Just cant deal with driving an hour to work everyday.
And yes, Ive worked for federal mogul for just over a year now. Unfortunatly 3rd shift..
church is  on walton rd which runs between rt11 and peppers ferry(114)

[astidham]

very neat place devildog

[Bob S.]

Are you guys living in the church while you are remodeling it?

[devildog]

Thanks.
No we had to get a construction loan. It didnt have a kitchen or bathtub/shower. The bank required those things. Then once the building dept. got involved they require alot more.
And theres always the unknown. While taking down the three layers of wall(paneling,sheetrock, and some thin tounge and groove) we found out that it had a mice infestation which somebody got the bright idea to pour out boxes of mice bait. We found many dead skeletons behind the walls. There was no insulation in the walls or floor. but there was over a foot of blown in insulation in the attic that I had to remove because it was soaked with mice urine and poop. Yeah, it was nasty. no sign of mice in the last couple of months.
There was blue carpet covering all the hardwood floors that I pulled up.
And I think all churches have a group of guys that do the work on the church that dont know alot about what theyre doing. I reframed all the windows(with my buddies help)


None had headers , some didnt have king studs , and some didnt have anything. They just chopped up whatever was inthe way to put the windows in. They also removed a wall in the main room. and then attached the ceiling joist that went on top of it to the truss which causes it  to sag. they only carry the ceiling  that I can tell. But I need to do something there, so if anyone has some suggestions Im listening


You can see that theyve cut one board short and attached a 2x4 to it.

Some boards have mangled  ends so they fixed this by hanging boards down from the rafters. here is the other end were the wall still is. and there are no boards hanging down.

The building dept isnt going to like the looks of that. I dont either. Lowes sent out a truss guy to look at it and see what kind of beam I might need. He said I needed 2 glu lams at a cost of $507. I really dont want to spend that kind of money. Im running out. And besides its only holding up sheetrock, Cant I get by with something less.
The span between is 22' 1 1/2". We ve thought about putting a post in about 6' off the wall to reduce the span and adding another post for visual asthetics at the other end and calling it a hallway or something. Maybe a  couple of 2x12 would span that. but then Id have to support under the post. I really havent been able to find any info about this so Ill listen to any suggestions

[Squirl]

I think I can see what they did with those ceiling joists.  It does not appear to be framed as I normally find hip roofs.  Normally the jack joist are short and only for the area where a normal ceiling joist doesn't fit with the slope.  I would consider ripping them out and run the joists parallel to the trusses, except at the end for the jack joist.

For the span by code:
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_8_sec002_par023.htm

It appears that for a ceiling with a 5 psf dead load (without a crawlspace above it) you can span a 2x8 SPF #2 22'-4" at 16" O/C.  Around me a 2x8x24 costs $20.  So even with what appears to be 8 ft from the picture for 2 sides and a triple joist for the jack joists, that would come to around $320.

I got the triple joist from this framing diagram:




I would check a few more books on hip frame roofing, but almost all the diagrams I had seen had the joists running parallel to each other except the last smallest bit.  Hopefully others will weigh in.  Maybe you can confirm with the building inspector.

[devildog]

squirl, this is basically what they did

I guess what i was hoping to hear was that I could span it with 2-3 2xs nailed together and then attachthose 12' ceiling joist to it.
I think what your saying is I could span the entire 22' 1 1/2" with ceiling joist 2x8 on 16" centers.
I just woke up so im trying to comprehend. The thing about 3rd shift is I have to take 2 benedryl every morning to sleep. Or otherwise Id only sleep an hour and a half,wake up, and then just lay there miserable. But benedryl makes me groggy for about 2hrs after I wake up.

[Squirl]

Your idea of two posts 6 ft off each side and a span in the middle of around 10 ft is another solution. 
http://publicecodes.citation.com/st/ny/st/b400v07/st_ny_st_b400v07_5_sec002_par013.htm

2-2x12's can span 10 ft with a ceiling and roof load combined.  It should easily be able to handle just the ceiling.  Two of the usually notes of caution come into play.  If you are not using one solid piece of lumber, be sure to make sure the joints are over a post.  Make sure you trace the weight from the posts follows directly down to the foundation and there is proper foundation support even with this small amount of weight.

My idea is to cut down the extra long jack joists (12'), and run 2x8's the 22 ft. direction.  Then install short jack joists (2-3 ft).  This cuts the load off the single ceiling joist that the jack joists connect too.  Depending on the lengths this could cut the load to the single ceiling joist by 85%. (12ft jack joist to 2ft jack joist)  A solution using dimensional lumber can be cheaper and easier to install.

On both I would connect the jack joists to the ceiling joist with some type of simpson joist connector.


Since you are only talking about the front 12 ft section, I would guess a little over $100 for the 2x12 with posts option or a little over $200 for the 2x8's with no posts option.

[devildog]

squirl,
my idea was only one post 6' off the wall to reduce the span to about 18' and save me money. The other postwould be on the other end of the room the equal distance off the wall to make it look even.but not included with the other post, that would be in the way in the family room. And  I dont really want anything in the way.

I ran with the idea you gave me. I had no idea you could span that far with a ceiling joist. I talked to a guy at lowes and he said it might cost me less because of shipping to go with 8" TJI's. Hes supposed to call me tomorrow with a cost.
He did suggest I get the building inspector to look at it . Im actually kind of afraid of what they might say or want. My friend who is a builder said they might want me to get an engineer to sign off on the trusses, and suggested I sheetrock the ceiling and play dumb. He said they go easier on homeowners. I just want it right
Thanks for the help

[Don_P]

Technically "right" is to have a support under the interstections of the hips. This is probably where the glulams or lvl's came into the picture, sized to carry not only the ceiling joists but also a support up to the hip/ridge intersection. In other words if you do come in 6' but not under the peak intersection the support is then in the span of a built up beam, you just stepped off the codebook charts. Can you stand a post directly under that intersection... or can you reinstall that wall or a section of wall in the center? Look down to the footing as well in this decision, that can make his beam look like a bargain.

I agree with the Lowe's guy as far as getting the building dept on board but do understand your friend's advice and his warning is valid. It sometimes works to play the dumb homeowner but then I've also seen them make it all be torn out and redone which is way more costly in the long run.

I think I know about where you are, seems like I'm always a day late and a dollar short but will try to stop in sometime. I hear you on the work in churches, the congregation means well but there is often some really sketchy work in them... don't look in our VFW too hard either 

[Squirl]

I approached my idea with the building inspector as the primary factor in mind.  In a gable ceiling, the 2x8 ceiling joists would run the width of the building from the front to the back.  This perfectly fits with the ICC code I referenced. Those charts have not changed over versions and IIRC should be able to be referenced in VA.  The last 2 ft would normally have 1 extra ceiling joist across.  Since, with a hip roof you can't do this, jack joists are installed perpendicular to the last ceiling joist.  Basic common sense would dictate a triple ceiling joist to attach the jack joists to could handle the load of the missing ceiling joist.  IIRC, there is a code provision of a double joist being able to hand a missing joist for floors in the ICC.

I think I found the reference I was looking for. This picture is for steel studs, but the nomenclature should be similar.



The last ceiling joist in my suggestion becomes the trimmer joist and the jack joists become header joists.
By code, both can be a single joist as long as it is under 3 ft. 
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_8_sec002_par030.htm

This may even save you $40.  If you or the building inspector are worried about the load you can always assure them and yourself by adding a double or triple joist.  It's not perfect, but this way you can know the why and the how of the design, and be able to make an argument for the method within the building code.  This method may save you from having to use engineered products or hiring an engineer.

[devildog]

I, trying to figure it out on my own, went to lowes and asked for a price for a glulam type beam. They put me in touch with the truss sales guy, notice I said SALES. He came out and looked clueless and said he'd run it by his people and said he thought it might work. So there were 2 clueless people that came to that determination.
The building dept has never seen the church. They dont know what I took down or left alone. Im seriously thinking about fixing it with the tji's  so I know its right. Installing the drywall on the ceiling ,having insulation blown in ,and act like nothing happened.
I only took it down toget rid of the mice poop. I didnt have to otherwise. And I feel like the tjis will be the problem solver. Thanks for the info and leading me down the path squirl.
DonP, I would like the oppurtunity to meet you if you get chance to stop by.
Any post in that room 12' of the wall would be right inthe center of my family room. So I really dont want to do post. Its hard to see but the truss isnt on top of the wall its on this side of it. The ceiling  joist rest on top of it and there isnt  anything going between the wall orjoist up to the rafters. Its stood since 1950. I do agree. It seems like there should be something there.

[Don_P]

The problem with tearing out the existing ceiling joists and running tji's 24' is that the rafter tie that they might require on every rafter pair of the hip jacks is 60' long. Look at the height of the tji and the available height over the wall as well.

I came up with 3-14" lvl's alongside the truss with the existing ceiling joists hangered on that beam and a post up to the peak from the built up lvl's. Alternatively if you step in with the 6' walls and run a triple 2x12  above the walls , hanger the existing cj's and a post to the peak that would do it... those are both outside of prescriptive code but should pass.

Before cutting any of the framing loose... and with winter on the way, tighten up the connections on the last truss, it wouldn't hurt to put some temporary stifflegs up from the floor (on blocks that cross a couple of joists) to the hips and ridge in that area.

[devildog]

The problem with tearing out the existing ceiling joists and running tji's 24' is that the rafter tie that they might require on every rafter pair of the hip jacks is 60' long.


DonP Im trying to understand ,but im just not sure I understand.  (60')?

Im going over later. Im going to look things over very closely and maybe take some pics. Ill measure it to be sure, but i think theres about 8" between the top plate and the rafters. Almost like theres a rim joist

[Moni]

excited to watch your project go on. Why, you ask? Because I live in an old church, too. Bought it 15 years ago and we're almost done. lol. We gutted ours, too, and lived in it (including the mice) while working on it. Boy that was hard. We had to use an outhouse for a while until the beginning of December... Try shovelling a path to it after a big snowstorm and waking up to -30 temps.

[Don_P]

The code states that rafters need to have ties in the lower third of roof height across the building. With a simple gable roof, your 24' direction, this is easy to do. On a hip roof many people ignore tieing the long direction, but the code does not.
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_8_sec002_par018.htm?bu2=undefined
One way to satisfy that requirement is to run to the other end of the building and tie to the rafters at the other end, in this case 60' away. That is not how I would do it. Another way to satisfy the code is to support the intersection of the ridge and hips,
http://publicecodes.citation.com/icod/irc/2009/icod_irc_2009_8_sec002_par017.htm?bu2=undefined
this is one of the beam solutions, a post, a wall, or designing the truss under the intersction strong enough to bear the load. Another way, and what actually holds up many hip roofs is the diaphragm action of the rigid flat planes of the roof and perhaps the ceiling leaning on one another. Proving that is definitely the territory of an engineer and most of them will shy away from that and favor one of the methods above, reason being the diaphragms aren't truly rigid and you get into alot of judgement calls about the rigidity. I'm not dictating one way or another just trying to explain some of the things you could run into when choosing one path or another. I've just as often had a conversation about the weather and had them never look up.

[shawnkfl]

cool. someone close to me! i live in christiansburg too. i actually work really close to you as well. i drive right by federal mogul to work. i just moved here a month ago from tampa area and love it so far!

[devildog]

Moni, Id like to see pictures of your church and your cabin is awesome. Ours is small for a church. It was built as a one room school in 1950 and in 1955 became a church. Additions were added in 1970 and in the 1990's they added the bathrooms.
Online you can find big churches remodeled into houses and their beautiful.

Donp, I think Ive got it now. I dont understand how much im obligated to bring up to code. Its frustrating tofind all these things wrong on a house thats been standing for over 60yrs and have to spend 100s or 1000s of dollars to fix it.

Shawnkfl, We love it here too. We moved here about 1 1/2 years ago from Jacksonville,fl. Do you have land or plans to build?

[shawnkfl]

devildog, we dont have land yet. we are saving every cent we can though, and that is our goal. our stories are very similar. i was layed-off and searched for a few months for employment. then we decided we wanted to leave florida. that led me here. we love it here and i found a really great job. now i just need to save the money to purchase our land. after that, no more rent or mortgage. i am also a vet. USAF. i joined for the gi bill so i could go to college.

[devildog]

I know its been a long time and alot of things happened on this project. Alot of back and forth over what was going to be the master bedroom and my daughters room on the side were dropped out of the plan because there was no access to insulate under them. and then after talking our insulation contractor talked to the building dept we put it backin as a br and a dining(we also couldnt put in plumbing )so I framed in a Mbr and bath in the main area which is still very large.
The 2 lvl beams I put in without asking the building dept were approved with no problem. but he did require that i put in collar ties on every other rafter. it took four of us to install them (about 400lbs) 21' 3". I asked lowes to send there truss guy out to look and tell me what he thought i should do and this is what he suggested.
We've lived here for about 7 months now. The only thing ive got left to do is trim work. But my motivation is gone I havent done much since we moved in. It was a long 1.5yrs and im tired.
Unfortunately Im not as pleased with it as I thought Id be. Id still like to finish Hillsville one day.

Heres some pics before and after

[devildog]

I also took down the 2 wood rooms on the side and turned it back into a carport. but cant find pics right now

[rick91351]

Hey Devildog long time no see - no hear - thought you were mad at us.   

Sounds like to Dr Rick a bad case of burn out you all are going through. 

Take a couple aspirin and post something in the morning.  No man you did a remarkable job.  All that work tosses and works on you.  Especially when it comes to trim and finish work.  It all seems to take forever and very little in return.



Rick       

[Don_P]

Glad to see your still kicking Darrell. It's come a long way, looking good.
I swear I'll finish our trim before the big auction... maybe
They'll probably just set me up in untrimmed digs, carpenter's purgatory 

[devildog]

Technically "right" is to have a support under the interstections of the hips. This is probably where the glulams or lvl's came into the picture, sized to carry not only the ceiling joists but also a support up to the hip/ridge intersection. In other words if you do come in 6' but not under the peak intersection the support is then in the span of a built up beam, you just stepped off the codebook charts. Can you stand a post directly under that intersection... or can you reinstall that wall or a section of wall in the center? Look down to the footing as well in this decision, that can make his beam look like a bargain.

I agree with the Lowe's guy as far as getting the building dept on board but do understand your friend's advice and his warning is valid. It sometimes works to play the dumb homeowner but then I've also seen them make it all be torn out and redone which is way more costly in the long run. 

Don_P, you were right about the post under the intersection of the hip/ridge connection. they wanted me to add that from the beam and on the other end over the wall even though it was at a slight angle he said i had too.

Rick im not mad, but even if I was Id get on here, this is my favorite web site!

Kinda funny story(it wasnt at the time) I failed my final inspection because I didnt have the dishwasher hooked up,even though the wiring and box was there,  I ran out of receptacle plates and needed 2 more, and I had not completely demolished the 2 rooms under the carport so he told me to take care of those things and hed swing by that next afternoon and hed pass me. so I did what he said, and when he returned he realized that  I had 2 windows where the carport was. apparently, and as he told me, that wasnt code acceptable. something about fire burn time rating(?). This scared me. I had gotten this far and they hadnt noticed and I was afraid he was going to fail me and it was going to cost alot more money to pull the windows out and brick them in. He asked me for my plans, so i gave him all 3 since thats how many times it changed and he said yeah, you had them drawn in everytime and we didnt catch it. so he said dont worry, I'll talk to my boss,but youre passed.
I think that since I hadnt torn down the 2 rooms where the carport was till the day before the final they didnt think anything of it im glad it worked out the way it did so i can look out in the carport and it allows a little more light in.