shipping container house - insulated, cheap and quick!

[Squirl]

There are pro's and con's of everything.  I do take the wiki articles with a grain of salt.  Can anyone explain this?

"By spraying two coats of a Ceramic powder additive in spray paint an insulation value of R-28 thermal efficiency can be achieved, thus no traditional insulation is required for heat or cold"

-from the wiki article.

This sounds like it would defy some basic physical or thermodynamic laws, but I'm no Einstein.

[RainDog]

 I recently watched a Bob Villa video that made some mention of the ceramic insulative coating you refer to, and its R value. "Supertherm ceramic insulation", he calls it. Google that. One coating, R-20.

http://video.bobvila.com/m/21320566/facing-and-insulating-the-steel-shipping-container.htm#q=%22BVTVEPISODEID400201%22

For me... "Too good to be true" is my first reaction. Dunno.

[Squirl]

Very interesting.
http://www.supertherm.net/
I distrust the language.  They use "R equivalent" instead of "R rating", "R value" or just "R-".  Sounds like a lawyers work to me.   The only time I found the R-value language was if you buy the "wall panel system."  When you click on it, it is steel studs with solid foam insulation.  Good foam insulation can have a value of R-7 per inch.

Most of the literature and the video are geared toward reflecting sunlight rather than keeping in heat.
The true key to insulation is preventing heat load," says J.E. Pritchett, founder and developer of SuperTherm,
http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/Ceramic_Coatings_for_Increased_Insulation-Insulation-A2461.html
It looks like it is made to keep heat out of a building, not in.  It seems more designed to keep you comfortable in a warm environment than to keep you from freezing to death in a cold one.

What set off my "too good to be true" alarm was the cost.  $100 for 120 sq. ft at R-20 would make it one of the most cost effective insulators in the world.  People would be pushing this into every aspect of building. 120 sq. ft R-19 Fiberglass cost $60, and a gallon of paint at the hardware store costs $25, plus the additional cost of the studs and the space lost on the interior.  The claim that all this could be saved with $100 can of paint and a roller?  It would virtually put spray foam insulation out of business.

I would love to see a test of this in a real world environment by someone not profiting off it's sale.

[MountainDon]

Very interesting.
http://www.supertherm.net/
I distrust the language.  They use "R equivalent" instead of "R rating", "R value" or just "R-".  

"R value equivalent" is also used by the folks who want to sell reflective types of insulation. Under some circumstances it may work out to their numbers.   

[OlJarhead]

When I was in the corps we sometimes used sea containers with changable sides and ends.  We could take two and attach them side by side to make a 'double wide'.  We build a comfortable office and shop this way.

But I wouldn't want to use them for anything but field expediency.

[Squirl]

Very interesting.
http://www.supertherm.net/
I distrust the language.  They use "R equivalent" instead of "R rating", "R value" or just "R-".  

"R value equivalent" is also used by the folks who want to sell reflective types of insulation. Under some circumstances it may work out to their numbers.   

That is what I had thought of.  A term used to describe performance in certain conditions without defining those conditions.  More of a limited definition (certain conditions) than an expansive one (most or all conditions).

[bayview]

In any case, they can be gussied up too. Here's an article and photos about a 3000 sq. ft. home built with containers, though I have to kinda doubt the stated pricetag.

http://www.lowimpactliving.com/blog/2009/07/07/affordable-shipping-container-house-in-quebec/#more-2445

   Now that is what I'm talking about . . .  Curb appeal!  It's interesting that the -home was framed on the outside of the containers and then spray-foamed for insulation.

/

[davidj]

I guess this is mainly about conduction vs. radiation vs. convection, which are the three ways heat energy can move.

What you are trying to do is stop heat moving between the inside of the house and the environment.  This is typically viewed as a conduction process through the wall, along with convection and radaition to transfer the heat between the skin of the house and the environment.  [There is convection mechanisms within the wall, e.g. between the fibers of the insulation, but you can pretend all of the little convection transfers are one big conduction mechanism when you do the sums - it basically looks the same as a conduction mechanism in the big-picture view].

You can limit the heat flow to/from the inside of the house by stopping it at any point in the process.  Usually you control how the heat is conducted through the wall, which is the easier thing to control, by using lots of stuff that doesn't conduct well (i.e. has a high R value).  You can't really do anything about the air in  contact with the wall skin - you're stuck with that so convection is always gonna pull heat from the skin once it's got through the wall.  And when it comes to losing heat in a cold climate, radiation is basically irrelevant. So insulated walls are all you've got.

However, when it comes to warming on a sunny day, radiation (from the Sun) on the skin is the primary mechanism by which the skin of the wall gains heat, and this can  be controlled quite easily with reflective paint.  By doing this, you basically make your house work the same way on a hot, sunny day as a hot, cloudy day.  (alternatively, just build your house under some trees!) However, you still need a high-ish R-value wall as, again, you can't stop the convection from the warm air heating the skin even if you can stop the radiation.

Another way of thinking about this is remembering that conduction rates (i.e. rate of gain and loss of heat) are based on temperature difference.  If it's 10F outside and 70F inside, you've got 60F temp. difference.  Maybe you need R38 in the roof.  And it doesn't matter what color your roof is, as you're not losing heat from radiation.  However, if it's 110F outside, and 80F inside, you've got a 30F heat difference, so you need less insulation (1/2 as much), say R19.  However, if you've used black paint on your roof and the Sun heats it to 140F, rather than the 110F air temp, the temp. difference across the roof insulation is 60F again - you need as much insulation as the cold weather case - R38.  Paint your roof bright silver, you're back to almost R19, say R23 (as the silver won't reflect all of the Sun, just most of it).  Maybe that paint is "R15-equivalent" in this scenario.  But it's still "R0-equivalent" in winter!

[RainDog]

Paint your roof bright silver, you're back to almost R19, say R23 (as the silver won't reflect all of the Sun, just most of it).  Maybe that paint is "R15-equivalent" in this scenario.  But it's still "R0-equivalent" in winter!

I don't have a firm handhold on how this stuff works, but given the little demonstration provided by the builder in the Villa video, it would seem to me that this is about more than just reflective paint.

What I have to wonder is whether he could have plunged that end he heated with the blowtorch into some extremely cold substance, just say liquid nitrogen, and continued holding the other end.

The demonstration was tricky, as it wasn't really demonstrating the insulative properties of the coating in a way that directly corresponds with how home insulation works. It was almost as if that ceramic stuff absorbed the heat. Sucked it right up. Weird.

[Abbynrml]

There is a product developed by NASA that creates an insulating paint.
I know people that have used it and they tell me it works very well.
I found it at:  http://www.insuladd.com/
Not sure what it costs but it might be worth a look.

[davidj]

The demonstration was tricky, as it wasn't really demonstrating the insulative properties of the coating in a way that directly corresponds with how home insulation works. It was almost as if that ceramic stuff absorbed the heat. Sucked it right up. Weird.

I don't think he was demonstrating anything to do with insulation as it looked to me was if the strip of metal was continuous from the torch end to the finger end with the insulation applied to one side.  It think he was just demonstrating that the ceramic works as a heat sink - ceramics typically have a high heat capacity (which is why tile floors feel cold - they suck the heat out of your foot).  I'm pretty sure you could do the same thing with a lump of copper soldered onto the middle of a thin strip of steel, and I'm not sure I'd want to insulate my house with copper.   So you're right - he's basically showing us how to build saucepan handles, not insulated roofing!

[RainDog]

davidj: Heatsink. That's the word I needed. Right.

[RainDog]

Out of curiosity, I just submitted a request for a quote on a Global Portable Buildings, Inc's 8X40 "Ultimate", featured here:

http://www.globalportablebuildings.com/Ultimate.html

I'll let y'all know what I price I get from them, if and when I get it.

[RainDog]

Thank you for your inquiry.


40' ULTIMATE (with bathroom, kitchen, and bedroom/office):  $19,985.00
Includes: AC volt electrical system (breaker panel, 6 light fixtures, wall
receptacles, phone
hookup, wiring, etc.), windows, entrance door, and two inches of rigid
insulated finished
walls/ceiling, vinyl floor covering and utility room.

Bathroom: Includes bathroom wall with sliding pocket door, toilet, shower,
sink, cabinet, plumbing,                                      hot water
heater included.

Kitchen: Includes 6' counter top, sink with faucets, cabinets, plumbing,
etc.
 
Bedroom/Office: Includes: Wall with locking door, closet with shelves and
sliding closet doors



Transportation/Delivery: $ 500.00


If you have any questions please feel free to contact us.

Thanks

Sean


Sean Taylor
Vice President Sales & Marketing
Global Portable Buildings
888-547-0840

____________________________________________________________________

After some quick checking, it looks to run about the same amount per square foot as a mobile home does. I wonder if a container shelter would devalue over time like a MH.

____________________________________________________________________

[RainDog]

 Another shipping container dwelling article.

"Behind the Scenes of Shipping Container Architecture"

Ever wonder how container architecture works? Where do the containers come from, how are they modified and exactly how much do they cost? Well, we're hoping to do a container house at our architecture firm, so earlier this week we headed to the south side of Chicago to Vaccaro Trucking, Inc., a container shipping, storage and modification company...

http://www.re-nest.com/re-nest/green-architect/behind-the-scenes-of-shipping-container-architecture-green-architect-107633

[Jens]

There was an episode of Planet Mechanics, where they built a container house in a week (I think), for about $5k pnds.  pretty cool.  I'm all about classic architecture, but I dig these things...even that rusty "eyesore" up there.  Like was said, "eye of the beholder".

[pagan]

RainDog,

Some nice links, thanks. Unfortunately Global Portable only uses new containers so the purchaser isn't saving anything from the junk pile. Also they only use 2 inches of rigid foam, so their container house has about R-10 to R-14 depending on the type they use. Either way it's not enough for central Vermont winters. You could use it for the summer while you build, but why not borrow or rent a travel trailer and save the $19,000 plus expense. Looks like they're geared more toward the commercial construction crowd.

[RainDog]

RainDog,

Some nice links, thanks. Unfortunately Global Portable only uses new containers so the purchaser isn't saving anything from the junk pile. Also they only use 2 inches of rigid foam, so their container house has about R-10 to R-14 depending on the type they use. Either way it's not enough for central Vermont winters. You could use it for the summer while you build, but why not borrow or rent a travel trailer and save the $19,000 plus expense. Looks like they're geared more toward the commercial construction crowd.

I dunno. A shipping container would provide a pretty tight envelope, and it seems that I remember that 2" foam was the insulation used on those firstday cottages I've seen touted here which are suitable for the Northeast...

But yeah, I'd never blow that kind of money for temporary housing. I was just curious as to what Global Portable Buildings was asking for a package.

[pagan]

$19,000 is pretty reasonable for a house that you simply plunk down, plug in, and furnish. I'm sure you can build something of comparable size with far more character for the same price.

[RainDog]

Cost square footage wise they run comparable to a lower-end mobile home, when I ran the numbers. Additionally, that's without suffering the terrible devaluation over time that a mobile home does, at least according to an ex-mobile home salesman acquaintance. His opinion was that it would be considered a permanent structure, were it tied down to a slab.

[pagan]

Mobile homes do devalue quickly. The ones I've worked on all tended to share the same problems. Frequent plumbing leaks due to the poor materials manufacturers use to cut costs. Leaks at the joints where the roof meets the wall. This caused water to run down inside the wall cavity so the homeowner didn't notice the water. Over time the subfloor would rot and then the floor would start bouncing. This is also why I think many trailers have that musty trailer smell. I was under a ten year old trailer and I could look up through the floor at the back of the couch. One time I was working on a two year old double wide and the owner had already had seven plumbing leaks. These were the two biggest problems and every trailer I worked on had them to some degree. If the homeowner was smart and had a secondary pitched roof built over the trailer the water leakage was not an issue. Plumbing was across the board. I was always appalled at the quality of piping they used.

I think he's right about the permanent structure part. Most mobile homes are not considered permanent because you can hook up a truck and tow them away. This could be a way around any protective covenants baring mobile homes.